UperGrafx PC Engine 720p DVI Widget

[CZroe]

I have an UperGrafx (UGX-01:  no CDROM or SD version) and I think it works well for what it does.  I've played around with pretty much every function and if anyone has any questions, I'll try to answer as best as I can.  Just remember, I'm no expert in video signals or anything like that.

Well, digging further through the Google Translate English version of their Japanese pages with a proper PC, I get some additional info, though some seems contradictory.

Though the English site says that all the hardware for CD-ROM^2 functionality is present/populated, the Japanese site presents the function as a new feature for the UGX-02 hardware (original is UGX-01). Some statements seem to imply that the UGX-01 CAN run CD-ROM titles, and it isn’t listed in the short list of differences. Perhaps they both have it but compatibility is different? They mention the possibility of renovating/retrofitting the old ones but they have not offered/priced the service yet. The changes seem to be minor stuff, like the ability to update without a PC, slightly different port positions, double the internal SRAM (2Mbit to 4Mbit) even though it doesn't currently utilize the extra 2Mbits for anything, and it uses a standard sized SD card (as opposed to microSD?).

My understanding is the UGX-01 can be upgraded to support CD-ROM titles but will cost extra for this service.  There is no SD card slot on the board, so I'm thinking it might be as simple as soldering one on there and updating the firmware (I hope!).

They added HuCard/TurboChip dumping to both as an "unofficial" function. Neat!

This is probably my most used function of this device.  It's not perfect, but it works. 

It can dump the framebuffer to your PC as a PNG file. That's why the screen freezes when you press the button. Jason/GameTechUS couldn't figure out what that was for but now it’s clearly so that you can see if you got the frame you want before dumping the frame buffer to the PC.

This is nice to have, but it'd be easier to do this in an emulator.  The screen does blank when you take a screenshot... I think the game freezes momentarily too.

There is some kind of setting where you choose your System Card type. It does not have a separate setting for Arcade Card and Super System Card 3.0 because they use the same ROM. The way they word it makes it seem like you might be able to run Arcade Card titles with a Super System Card but probably not. You definitely need a card of some kind inserted and the Arcade Card Duo doesn’t work because it has no ROM (relies on the Duo’s built-in Super System Card 3.0).

I believe this is only for the HuCard dumping function.  You just need to choose the setting if you're dumping that particular card.  Earlier firmwares couldn't dump Street Fighter II', but after a firmware update, that card was added as an option in the menu.

When they unveiled the CD-ROM^2 ODE function they said that the memory card was "MMC." There is some compatibility between SD and MMC, so hopefully they weren't saying that the feature requires MMC like a Nokia nGage.

Not sure on this one.  I think they meant MMC or similar cards in a roundabout way of saying SD/MMC.  Won't know for sure until the new version is released I suppose.

There is some mention of CD-ROM^2 compatibility with the UGX-01 being improved with future updates, which implies that it was working on the original version in some form. Perhaps it just doesn't have great compatibility? I saw numbers like 70% and 80% compatibility. Even on real hardware some CD-ROM titles that stream FMV from the disc can have problems when the drive reads too slow or two fast. They brag that it loads faster from SD so I wonder if that is the issue.

The internal memory card function allows you to backup to PC.

It looks like the old version's SD-slot was not installed though the casing still had a hole for it. Guess it wasn't fully populated for the feature as they claim!

This is what I've gleaned so far.

Their twitter feed has a link to a spreadsheet detailing the compatibility of various games.  It was around 100 games when I looked at it, but I'm sure there's more by now.

IMO, the Upergrafx is lacking compared to the SD System3.  However, it's my impression that the UperGrafx was intended to only replace the CD-ROM and IFU-30 units.  That's why it doesn't run HuCard images, you still need System Cards and/or Arcade Cards for those games to work, etc.  Running CD images seems pretty cumbersome too, from reading their website.

I'd be happy if there was a simple way of getting digital output using the UperGrafx with CD/IFU-30 or SCD hardware. 

- akamichi

Thanks! This clarifies a lot. Do the analog outputs (RF or multi-out) still work while using it?

[Johnpv]

Unfortunately it wasn’t generally available in your average TV until we were on the verge of component with the popularity of DVD players but it was available first and all the way up to the advent of digital inputs, making it’s useful life a bit longer before DVI/HDMI displaces both... and that’s when all the best CRTs were being made. XBOX 360 and Wii were still component only and a lot of people were using it for DVD players so it died a slow death.

I'm not saying s-video as a standard wasn't around. The issue was availability. As you said the 4pin mini-DIN, which was introduced later is the more common one people are aware of. The problem was that it wasn't included on most consumer grade products until as CZroe said, component was becoming readily available. I used s-video for years and never touched component because my s-video looked great. But I wasn't your average consumer. I actually owned a SVHS player, which did use s-video.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  Growing up we didn't have big or expensive tv sets, and both my parents main living room set, and then one I used odd job birthday etc money to buy both had S-Video on them.  This was like the late 80s early 90s, while component wouldn't really show up till 10 years later. I would bet its easier to find an SD CRT with S-Video than one with component.  My friend is going through that right now, he wants a back up SD CRT with component in and having a hard time finding one. 

[CZroe]

Unfortunately it wasn’t generally available in your average TV until we were on the verge of component with the popularity of DVD players but it was available first and all the way up to the advent of digital inputs, making it’s useful life a bit longer before DVI/HDMI displaces both... and that’s when all the best CRTs were being made. XBOX 360 and Wii were still component only and a lot of people were using it for DVD players so it died a slow death.

I'm not saying s-video as a standard wasn't around. The issue was availability. As you said the 4pin mini-DIN, which was introduced later is the more common one people are aware of. The problem was that it wasn't included on most consumer grade products until as CZroe said, component was becoming readily available. I used s-video for years and never touched component because my s-video looked great. But I wasn't your average consumer. I actually owned a SVHS player, which did use s-video.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  Growing up we didn't have big or expensive tv sets, and both my parents main living room set, and then one I used odd job birthday etc money to buy both had S-Video on them.  This was like the late 80s early 90s, while component wouldn't really show up till 10 years later. I would bet its easier to find an SD CRT with S-Video than one with component.  My friend is going through that right now, he wants a back up SD CRT with component in and having a hard time finding one.

It is, but that’s because DVD players had both which finally convinced TV makers to start including them both on the lower-end models. We don’t disagree: I also said that the useful life of S-video before the advent of digital inputs was a little bit longer than component.

Before that it was mostly old computer monitors that didn’t conform to the final spec and higher-end home TVs. It was very tough to just encounter in the wild because very few mainstream TVs had it. Several years ago I found a Sony XBR produced in 1991 that had it but that definitely wasn’t mainstream in 1991. I *always* looked for it on every TV I touched. In all the years of taking my SNES to other people’s homes, I only ever saw an S-video connector on one ONCE before 1995. Even then, until 1998 it was mostly on stuff like the JAM! VGA adapter, the Samsung GX gaming TV, and my ATI All-in-Wonder. In late 1996 my twin brother and I installed nearly 200 Zenith Concierge-series TVs in a hotel when we were teenagers and we couldn’t resist sneaking in our new N64 in just to try it out in S-video! When a friend got a fancy big screen TV with S-video in 1998 I recall that we couldn’t get S-video to work from my Sigma Designs RealMagic Hollywood+ DVD decoder and we ended up having to watch The Prince of Egypt with composite running through his VCR (can’t believe it’s still not on BD). It was triggering Macrovision and composite didn’t work directly into the TV either.

I recall seeing the connector back then on 3DO and LaserDisc players, but the SNES was probably the most prolific S-video capable device back in its days. Unfortunately the proprietary cables practically didn’t exist. I’ve heard of people obtaining them in retail packaging straight from Nintendo with claims that they were never sold at retail but I did see them at Babbages in early 1994. Heck, half the TVs sold were still RF-only back when the SNES launched. I check every single VCR I see in thrift stores several times a week and in 13 years I have only found two S-video capable VCRs...
...and they were together...
...in a component rack...
...with professional video production equipment...
...and restrictive “not for consumer use” labeling.
Those are the same VCRs I still have today. I was thousands of miles away from home too so I had to ditch stuff to fit them in my luggage. They are both Panasonic but one has a ton of extra controls, like it is some kind of video editor that controls the secondary one.

I got my GC component cables as soon as I got a 30” Samsung 16:9 CRT. I promptly returned that TV for an XBR910 because the Sammy would force 4:3 content to 16:9 in progressive scam mode and I only wanted it to play my progressive scan XBOX and GameCube games (not much “HD” content back then). Even on my XBR910, S-video looked better due to scan lines increasing the perceived detail (brain interpolates detail in the scanline areas). The tiny squirrel on the title screen to 1080 Avalanche actually looked like a squirrel with S-video. It was almost imperceptibly different from 480i over component, but enabling 480p over component instantly made it look like a tiny blob of pixels. I knew that 480p had more “real” detail, but the squirrel just looked that much better with S-video.

Now, even though it was a CRT, that was the TV’s image processor choosing to eliminate scan lines on a 480p source (it was a native 1080-line set). Nothing I could do about it, but I can with things like UltraHDMI, Hi-Def NES, and UperGrafx. It’s unfortunate that compatibility with retro digital video mods is so poor with these HD Trinitrons. Even that old TV had DVI and the XBR960 added HDMI. I’ve got other HD Trinitrons with HDMI and DVI also, and the best option for many of them is still S-video or component. It’s pretty clear to me why someone here might want to add both of those if they are going through the trouble to RGB mod a system. Is a Neo Geo MVS truly consolized when it essentially still requires an arcade monitor to use it? IMO: NOPE. Better add that composite, S-video, and component encoder while you’re at it!

[akamichi]

Thanks! This clarifies a lot. Do the analog outputs (RF or multi-out) still work while using it?

Yes.  I haven't tried RF, but you can still use the AV out simultaneously with the UperGrafx.  So you can output Digtial and Analog video and three sources of audio (via DVI, Line out on UperGrafx, and via AV out) all at the same time.

- akamichi

[Digi.k]

NEU!!!!!!!

http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja

[CZroe]

NEU!!!!!!!

http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja

I want this, especially now that the Super SD System 3 creators and supporters consider video purists to be pariahs and express disdain for anyone who cares about it.

[Black Tiger]

NEU!!!!!!!

http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja

I want this, especially now that the Super SD System 3 creators and supporters consider video purists to be pariahs and express disdain for anyone who cares about it.

If you sign up to the neo-geo.com forums you can read their statement about video/audio in the dedicated thread in their dedicated section. They apologized and completely agree with the video purists and worked with some of the experts who understood the situation better than most of the people complaining as well as Terra Onion themselves. They've fixed the RGB and audio and the new model will work perfectly with a standard Genesis csync cable.

They're recalling the shipped units and the new model is now the standard.

No reason to punish yourself because of random thread out of context.

[Necromancer]

I don't know about them "completely agreeing" with the problem:

Yes, the units to my own point of view are not faulty units.  This is what really upsets me, to destroy a production batch cause the image could be better.  Cause lets face it, the videos are there and the image is not terrible as those guys said it was.

[CZroe]

NEU!!!!!!!

http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja

I want this, especially now that the Super SD System 3 creators and supporters consider video purists to be pariahs and express disdain for anyone who cares about it.

If you sign up to the neo-geo.com forums you can read their statement about video/audio in the dedicated thread in their dedicated section. They apologized and completely agree with the video purists and worked with some of the experts who understood the situation better than most of the people complaining as well as Terra Onion themselves. They've fixed the RGB and audio and the new model will work perfectly with a standard Genesis csync cable.

They're recalling the shipped units and the new model is now the standard.

No reason to punish yourself because of random thread out of context.

Oh, I read every word of it along with every word prior and every word following. If you did too then I must say that either you believed everything they said without looking into it or you must live on a different planet. I can’t actually blame you because the moderation there will not allow anyone to tell you the reality of the situation.

Here’s the thing: I actually didn’t care about the RGB issues and would have bought it with or without them acknowledging the problem and offering to fix it but I can’t possibly do that after seeing what they did/said AFTER their statement and proposed resolution. That’s right: They lost my business AFTER acknowledging the problem and agreeing to resolve it. Not before

Why? Because they continued to place the blame for the entire debacle on a Good Samaritan and relentlessly rallied everyone against a completely innocent man. Not only was this man completely blameless, but he was willing to help and could have saved them thousands of Euros if they had responded differently. He had nothing to do with the resulting debacle. He is their scapegoat.

I implore you to actually look at the three or four RetroRGB weekly updates where Bob discusses SSDSys3. Time codes are in the descriptions.
Bob never called it a disaster.
He never told people to demand refunds.
He never asked for a free unit.

They made all these claims repeatedly and continue spreading these lies. Meanwhile, on Planet Earth (reality):
Bob was supportive.
Bob was enthusiastic.
Bob was sympathetic.

Even when confronted with a screenshot clearly showing that he only asked to borrow one, they doubled-down on the claim and further riled up the community against it. They claimed that “borrowed” was code for “free” because no one borrows a review unit and companies can’t use he returned units, ignoring that reviewers and producers actually do this all the time. Not only has Bob done this numerous times, he went on to arrange it with another member here who enthusiastically ordered it within 15 minutes of it going on sale.

Voultar is the one they thanked for helping even though MobiusStripTech tried to help too. But get this: Bob was offering the exact same help as Voultar before release. They are closely associated, you know. Bob has been nothing but supportive and sympathetic to their project. They viciously continued attacking him and blaming him and even had the nerve to complain that he sold his own personal NeoSD without reviewing it. News flash: People are allowed to sell their stuff. He paid for that with his own money and planned to get another for a future comparison. He had no obligation and it wasn’t even related to his field of expertise (video).

Even GadgetUK had to bite his tongue when calling them out in this. Unless Terra Onion admits that they were wrong to attack him and apologize, I will not buy a SSDSys3.

What they did is the exact opposite of gracefully acknowledging the problem and offering a resolution and yet people keep talking about how “professional” they’re being. I must live on a different planet.

I’m no RGB purist. I don’t even have an RGB-capable display (yet), but as soon as I saw Terra Onion and GadgetUK’s videos on YouTube in December even I immediately had questions about the Gen/MD 2 cable because I knew that the consoles did not output standard RGB and that you needed different cables depending on your mod.

Making it to spec with whatever cables they had around does not surprise me. Again, I planned to buy it anyway. My issue is with them taking an upstanding community member and taking him over the coals unjustly.

[turboswimbz]

a completely innocent Good Samaritan who could have saved them thousands of Euros if they had responded differently and has nothing to do with the resulting debacle.

I implore you to actually look at the three or four RetroRGB weekly updates where Bob discusses SSDSys3. Time codes are in the descriptions.
Bob never called it a disaster.
He never told people to demand refunds.
He never asked for a free unit.
Bob was supportive.
Bob was enthusiastic.
Bob was sympathetic.

Even when confronted with a screenshot clearly showing that he only asked to borrow one, they doubled-down on the claim and further riled up the community against it. They claimed that “borrowed” was code for “free” because no one borrows a review unit and companies can’t use the returned units, ignoring that reviewers and producers actually do this all the time. Not only has Bob done this numerous times, he went on to arrange it with another member here who enthusiastically ordered it within 15 minutes of it going on sale.

Bob was offering the exact same help as Voultar before release. They are associated, you know. Bob has been nothing but supportive and sympathetic to their project. They viciously continued attacking him and blaming him and even had the nerve to complain that he sold his own personal NeoSD without reviewing it. News flash: People are allowed to sell their stuff. He paid for that with his own money and planned to get another for a future comparison. He had no obligation and it wasn’t even related to his field of expertise (video).

Not that I am condemning you, but your whole reasoning for boycotting a project is because a Youtube personality was attacked wrongly in your opinion?   He was criticizing their product . . . of course there is a large area here where misunderstandings could enter the equation. 

If your such a fan of bob as you stated, than should you not like him should realize this and continue to support the project and understand these thing happen?   It is not a matter of absolving the team of wrong doing but rather of understanding, and accepting that humans are imperfect.  holding them accountable is one thing and a good thing! But holding grudges doesn't seem like a healthy lifestyle.

Sorry, just seemed a bit hypocritical and maybe I am being a bit dense?

Resume back to the normal drama filled posts.

[pixeljunkie]

...That’s right: They lost my business AFTER acknowledging the problem and agreeing to resolve it. Not before

Congrats

Also, that's a LOT of words to say, "I don't really know what I am talking about and I don't have one, nor am I buying one and I don't even have an RGB monitor"

[CZroe]

Not that I am condemning you, but your whole reasoning for boycotting a project is because a Youtube personality was attacked wrongly in your opinion?   He was criticizing their product . . . of course there is a large area here where misunderstandings could enter the equation.

If only that was all there was to it. No, Bob got thrown under the bus so that they could dismiss EVERYONE who cared about it and turn their supporters against anyone who even mentioned video concerns even though those weren’t the only concerns. Just look at the hate being spewed there toward anyone who has any problem what-so-ever. Just look at what happens to anyone who actually tries to correct the record. People are being PUNISHED for having problems with it. I get that they needed a launch partner for the NeoSD but they REALLY need their own support forums. NGF is just too protective and hostile to newcomers and that’s exactly what a support forum will bring.

Now, you say that Bob was criticizing their product. I ask you to please take 30 minutes of your time to look through the weekly podcasts from Dec and Jan. Bob runs a channel and website focused on RGB and he commented on the RGB concerns his audience would have while remaining supportive the entire time.

If your such a fan of bob as you stated, than should you not like him should realize this and continue to support the project and understand these thing happen?   It is not a matter of absolving the team of wrong doing but rather of understanding, and accepting that humans are imperfect.  holding them accountable is one thing and a good thing! But holding grudges doesn't seem like a healthy lifestyle.

Sorry, just seemed a bit hypocritical and maybe I am being a bit dense?

Resume back to the normal drama filled posts.

It’s not that I’m a “fan of Bob.” I watch for the community news and I don’t even have an RGB-capable display. Bob doesn’t tell me what to think. I’m a first-hand witness to Bob’s horrible mistreatment from the community at the hands of Terra Onion and their followers. I’d say that Terra Onion are only responsible for their own actions except that they definitely fanned these flames. Provoked it. Every post there condemning Bob and accusing anyone with concerns of being Bob’s minion is 100% their doing even when it was posted by someone else.

It’s premature to say that Bob continues to support it after their attack because he hasn’t made an update since they acknowledged the issues and blamed him. I’d get right back on board if they made an apology or at least dialed it back (“maybe we were wrong”). I don’t see that happening if you aren’t even allowed to tell them that borrowing for reviews is routine and the Bob never called it a “disaster.” GadgetUK tried to tell them about the misunderstanding and even he fell on deaf ears (anyone else would have been banned).

“Grudge?” I’m serious that I’d still buy one if they apologized. I remain excited for the future products Terra Onion has hinted at but I will not join the “oh how PROFESSIONAL of them” bandwagon when it’s the exact opposite. SSDSys3 is not the only game in town, as this thread demonstrates.

...That’s right: They lost my business AFTER acknowledging the problem and agreeing to resolve it. Not before

Congrats

Also, that's a LOT of words to say, "I don't really know what I am talking about and I don't have one, nor am I buying one and I don't even have an RGB monitor"

I know exactly what I’m talking about and read every word of every post on NGF. I went further and listened to every word uttered by RetroRGB on the subject. I followed up every tweet linked. I read the entire Shmups thread where they are present as “NeoSD.” I communicated directly with another owner/technician and knew exactly what was wrong before they announced it (using a digital ground plane for analog outputs). I know the situation inside and out.

My point about RGB is that my decision has nothing to do with it and everything to do with what they did to concerned people who only wanted to help (Bob and countless people banned from NGF). It seems that even that was lost on you.

You don’t have to do all the work I did. Just watch those few RetroRGB segments yourself. Try to find where Bob called is a “disaster.” Try to find where Bob encouraged angry users to demand refunds. Try to find where Bob did any of the things they accuse him of doing. They fabricated this story so that they could mischaracterize anyone who comes to them with a problem as being one of Bob’s minions so that they can dismiss them. Attacking him for selling his own NeoSD after he lost is job is just despicable. After you watch those videos, skim through the statement thread on NeoSD again and tell me that the reactions to RetroRGB aren’t over the top and entirely inexcusable.

[turboswimbz]

yeah, I responded before you edited some stuff around.  I agree with your edit version more than the original.  I also didn't mean to say he directly said to his audience that "This is bad"  but he did say "you guys know this may have problems"  That's paraphrased of course.

What I was getting at is what you're saying that the forum post was then easily turned around as the TO guys felt they were being attacked even though that wasn't the case.

I feel that yes you are right that they were not 100% professional about the situation in that regard, but I do feel that are at least better off than a lot of other items/games/projects I've seen and it's not fair to say Black Tiger is some sort of crazy person for suggesting that they are in fact handling some aspects well. (although I agree with you and Necro's post in saying that they were not 100 upfront on it, and to some degree believed that the issues were not their fault)

Grudge is probably strong . . . I am saying that this all boils down to internet drama for me, the guys at TO will fix the stuff and RBG will move on. and it may be worth buying one after it all sorts out.

[CZroe]

yeah, I responded before you edited some stuff around.  I agree with your edit version more than the original.  I also didn't mean to say he directly said to his audience that "This is bad"  but he did say "you guys know this may have problems"  That's paraphrased of course.

What I was getting at is what you're saying that the forum post was then easily turned around as the TO guys felt they were being attacked even though that wasn't the case.

I feel that yes you are right that they were not 100% professional about the situation in that regard, but I do feel that are at least better off than a lot of other items/games/projects I've seen and it's not fair to say Black Tiger is some sort of crazy person for suggesting that they are in fact handling some aspects well. (although I agree with you and Necro's post in saying that they were not 100 upfront on it, and to some degree believed that the issues were not their fault)

Grudge is probably strong . . . I am saying that this all boils down to internet drama for me, the guys at TO will fix the stuff and RBG will move on. and it may be worth buying one after it all sorts out.

Thanks.

Considering that Bob was talking from the perspective of an RGB purist to an audience of RGB purists about predictable RGB purist concerns, I have to say that it’s pretty unfair to fault him for saying “that there may be problems...” especially when he was absolutely right. Actually, it’s more accurate to paraphrase it as him saying “we don’t know” about certain predictable concerns dealing with Gen/MD2 cables. If anything, he had a duty to remind them of those concerns and seek/share further details. That’s exactly what he did while remaining supportive and encouraging anyone who didn’t care about that to buy it.

They were concerns that were so predictable that I was already wondering about them before Bob ever said a word... likely even before he was aware that it existed. His statements were not negative and only made things better for everyone, including Terra Onion (fewer of the RGB purist buyers they resent rushing to buy/return it). Bob was specific about what kind of problems there might be and he hit the nail on the head. If it weren’t for him then an even bigger portion of their initial buyers would be upset.

They accuse him of criticizing it without having one or knowing anything about it but, as I explained above, that wasn’t what he was doing at all. He pointed out what we needed to know first and cautioned us to wait for details. He reached out for those details and he shared the details he had as they came through. There’s absolutely no way that saying “we don’t know yet” counts as unfairly criticizing it without seeing it. Explaining the concerns with the details we did receive is entirely fair. Everything was full-disclosure.

It ultimately had exactly the problems he and his audience would be concerned with, completely vindicating any words of caution. It would be wrong of him to be aware of those concerns/potential problems/details relevant to that audience and NOT to mention them when sharing the news. They don’t seem to realize that his audience was already one of picky RGB purists before their product existed and that his comments did not suddenly make them care. They already cared. He’s not some figurehead that turned everyone against them.

I wasn’t implying that Black Tiger lives on another planet to think what he thought so I wasn’t calling him a “crazy person.” The “other planet” comment was one of two options and it was used to strongly imply the other one: that he got that impression from TerraOnion’s current echo chamber on NGF, which is where he was inviting me to read. I wanted him to know just how thoroughly I dug into that so he would realize that there is a lot more to it than what you find there. There is a reason you’d have that impression if that was your primary source of info on this drama.

[waiwainl]

TD is committed to resolve the issue. I will most definitely buy one when resolved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk