New PCE chiptunes thread

[sunteam_paul]

Funny so much emphasis was placed on redbook audio when the SuperCD came out.

Why? Of course they placed emphasis on redbook when the CD-ROM games came out (I guess you mean that rather than SuperCD which was a later revision). I can only assume that you were not around in that era, as all we, as consumers (kids), were after was the next thing to wow us. If a CD game came with a chip soundtrack, it was a disappointment.

Now it's a different matter, as we look back at all these things as 'retro' and can appreciate them individually. But back then, they would have been mad not to make the most of CD music.

[Arkhan]

I didn't mean MIDI literally, but the SNES and N64 have discrete soundchips that sound very much like primitive MIDI synthesizers. There's a ton of instrument definitions that get recycled over again in a variety of games. That's why many SNES and N64 games had orchestral sounding compositions, some of which were extremely good.

Primitive MIDI synthesizers?   MIDI synthesizers weren't primitive.  The first wave of them are capable of producing the chiptuney square/saw/whatever waves you want to hear.   lol. 

The Roland Juno-106, for example.   

I assume these instrument profiles were probably defined by audio libraries included with the dev kits and likely stored somewhere in the game code. I don't pretend to know how they operate, but many of the instruments sound very similar to MIDI sound, ie select an instrument profile and play a note.

They're samples.  So, they don't sound like "primitive MIDI synths" (I am not sure what this actually means).  They sound like samples.  It's a lot like the Amiga.

Stop using the term "MIDI sound".   It's completely wrong.

As was already pointed out, MIDI is silent.  It's digital data instructing the interface to do things.  You can control lights with MIDI. 

To further explain why this is wrong: all of the chiptunes I make are ultimately stored in MIDI format.

Insanity's CD soundtrack, is all MIDI driving analog synths.  The lead noise is a Commodore 64 controlled via MIDI.  So, your "chiptune" thing is being controlled via MIDI.... and then recorded to .WAV and played as a CD track...

SNES was just more MIDI sounding, less chiptuney, for lack of a better word.

There is a better word.

It's sample-sounding.   You could use chippy samples for SNES, and some games do.

But, at the time, people were striving to make more "realistic" sounding music, like CD games had.


What you are trying to say is, they sound like that shit Windows GM library that MIDI files on Windows 95 used to play when you'd go to someone's GeoCities page back in 1997.

That's not "MIDI sound".

That's a crap instrument library.

[StarDust4Ever]

Forgive me for the poor word choice. I am not a composer; I just love listening to music. It is nice that the PC Engine has it's own Famitracker equivalent for composing chiptunes.

"MIDI sound format" to me has always been the little *.mid files that play back compositions of instruments. I'm aware there's no actual audio encoding as the files are too tiny for that, but when played back over an appropriate sound card or software player, the listener hears music. And no, the MIDI sound format is not crap. I've heard some quite exquisite compositions in MID format, and some absolutely terrible ones.

As for the CD soundtracks in CD based PCe games, I think the PC Engine as a console loses it's "voice." Each retro console has different sound hardware creating different audio signatures. I can tell an Atari game from an NES game from a Game Boy game from a SNES game from a Genesis / Megadrive game simply by hearing it, even if I've never played or heard the game before.

The PC Engine's own synth is no different, but when listening to CD soundtracks, it's voice is not present. The voice is that of whatever was used to create the CD recording not the PC Engine's internal voice. It may be fantastic music or might be garbage, but it's coming from a generic DAC, not the actual soudchip.

[Arkhan]

OK, you still don't understand what a *.mid is.

Nobody said the MIDI sound format (this is not an actual term.  MIDI is not a sound format) is crap

I said the Windows GM library is crap.   Meaning, the instrument library Windows is using to play MIDI back is garbage.

a MIDI file can be fed to any device accepting MIDI.    This is why people bought MT-32s to play DOS games.   It sounded better than the shit that Windows or Soundblaster was puking out by default.

  This is MIDI. 

So is this.

  This is not.

  Nor is this.

Same data, fed to a different device.

Also, you should cut the "i can tell shit apart" bit.   Tim Follin will wreck you pretty hard with that mindset.

that and your scientific tone rife with cluelessness is really just not going well.

[sunteam_paul]

As for the CD soundtracks in CD based PCe games, I think the PC Engine as a console loses it's "voice." Each retro console has different sound hardware creating different audio signatures. I can tell an Atari game from an NES game from a Game Boy game from a SNES game from a Genesis / Megadrive game simply by hearing it, even if I've never played or heard the game before.

The PC Engine's own synth is no different, but when listening to CD soundtracks, it's voice is not present. The voice is that of whatever was used to create the CD recording not the PC Engine's internal voice. It may be fantastic music or might be garbage, but it's coming from a generic DAC, not the actual soudchip.

That's true from the perspective of now and I get what you're saying, but the point is that nobody was calling for more chiptunes at the time. We wanted more CD soundtracks, more visual scenes and more amazing stuff to hear and look at.

[Arkhan]

http://aetherbyte.com/downloadables/sotb.mp3


Which one would you want to hear when Shadow of the Beast launched on TGCD?

[Bonknuts]

As for the CD soundtracks in CD based PCe games, I think the PC Engine as a console loses it's "voice." Each retro console has different sound hardware creating different audio signatures. I can tell an Atari game from an NES game from a Game Boy game from a SNES game from a Genesis / Megadrive game simply by hearing it, even if I've never played or heard the game before.

The PC Engine's own synth is no different, but when listening to CD soundtracks, it's voice is not present. The voice is that of whatever was used to create the CD recording not the PC Engine's internal voice. It may be fantastic music or might be garbage, but it's coming from a generic DAC, not the actual soudchip.

 You didn't play these systems back in the early 90s, did you? While I understand what you're saying, NOBODY I knew, as well as all the magazines, had this point of view.

 And while what you're saying isn't.. not true, to an extent, I would like to point out that CD game music from the PC Engine era - still sounded like video game music. I can't say the same thing about the PS2 generation and later stuffs. I played Ys I and II CD on the TGCD unit is early 1991 - not only was it incredible technically, but it was incredible "video game" music too. Even to this day, I prefer it to all Ys I/II sound track. The PC remakes that came out in 2000s, I replaced the audio tracks with the original PCE CD tracks. That's how great they are. And it isn't the only game from that era; GoT, LoT, Valis 2, Valis 3, Ys 3, Dragon Slayer, etc.

 Side note: If you had a PC in the early to mid 90's, you would have associated MIDI with cheap sounding FM. Because a lot of PC games used a generic midi instrument set based on the SB16 or Adlib cards (OPL stuff). And it had a very distinct sound to it (ranging from undesirable to tolerable).

 I have no idea why someone would associate the SNES sound with midi. I understand some of the same-y sound font a lot of SNES games used, but I would never associate that with midi - that's sample based synth stuff (and laziness when it came to samples).

 The N64 has no sound chip whatsoever. It's just a single DAC. Everything is pure software driven.

[esteban]

I don't need to repeat what others have said about the CONTEXT of Red Book audio in late-80's onward (it was wonderful to have these soundtracks/cinemas),

But I will concede the following point: the concept of a "distinct, unique PSG PCE sound aesthetic" was rooted in chiptunes generated by the PCE....it is easily identifiable and unique. Thankfully, for the sake of variety/experimentation, composers/developers were able to decouple themselves from the hardware and use Red Book, too.

I see Red Book as a positive development (more options & flexibility), but I concede that Red Book occupies a broader category of music that is not as distinctly unique as PCE PSG.


CRITIQUE:
Also, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this: Red Book captures the trends of an era (recording studio, instruments, styles of mixing) in ways that some folks don't like (for example, I like 80's studio recordings of synths/samples/mixing, but some folks find it horribly dated). I could argue that chiptune renditions of some songs would be more appealing to folks who despise "goofy" sound aesthetics that were industry standard in recording studios circa 1987

FOR THE RECORD: I enjoy most Red Book by Telenet House Band! But I know some folks find it dated, generic and stale. I can't argue that these folks are wrong, because it is the very nature of recording in a studio—it literally documents the zeitgeist/trends/fashions/norms of the era that open it up to more scrutiny than the "constrained" PCE PSG chiptunes.

[sunteam_paul]

FOR THE RECORD: I enjoy most Red Book by Telenet House Band! But I know some folks find it dated, generic and stale.

Curiously, I found much of the Telenet music to be dated, with cheap sounding synths back when the games were newly released. It never held up to the standard of the Hudson output.

[esteban]

FOR THE RECORD: I enjoy most Red Book by Telenet House Band! But I know some folks find it dated, generic and stale.

Curiously, I found much of the Telenet music to be dated, with cheap sounding synths back when the games were newly released. It never held up to the standard of the Hudson output.

Exactly. I find Loom's soundtrack to be sterile (how is it possible to destroy Tchaikovsky? They sucked all life from some of the most amazing music )



This doesn't change the fact that VALIS II = one of the greatest, most unappreciated soundtracks of all time!

Trüe storie.

If anyone thinks otherwise, they are missing out. I feel sorry for them.

Anyway...

[Speedy]

I got my cover to work within 60hz by switching between 100 and 90 bpm with effects, so it should be at the correct tempo on a real system. I also changed the noise volume from 1D to 1A since Deflemask's noise emulation seems to make it too quiet (it's much louder in the emulators I've tried). I don't have an Everdrive or a PC Engine on hand so I had to use Mednafen as a test bench.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-AzexHchwV1S0dSSFF0aEpwM2M/view?usp=sharing

[StarDust4Ever]

I got my cover to work within 60hz by switching between 100 and 90 bpm with effects, so it should be at the correct tempo on a real system. I also changed the noise volume from 1D to 1A since Deflemask's noise emulation seems to make it too quiet (it's much louder in the emulators I've tried). I don't have an Everdrive or a PC Engine on hand so I had to use Mednafen as a test bench.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-AzexHchwV1S0dSSFF0aEpwM2M/view?usp=sharing

I can confirm it works on Everdrive. Black screen but the sound is amazing!

[Bonknuts]

I got my cover to work within 60hz by switching between 100 and 90 bpm with effects, so it should be at the correct tempo on a real system. I also changed the noise volume from 1D to 1A since Deflemask's noise emulation seems to make it too quiet (it's much louder in the emulators I've tried). I don't have an Everdrive or a PC Engine on hand so I had to use Mednafen as a test bench.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-AzexHchwV1S0dSSFF0aEpwM2M/view?usp=sharing

Awesome! Yes, the whole noise level thing from Deflemask's output has stopped me from doing music disks for roms.

 Do you have any graphics or animation you'd like to throw together for this hes to be a single music disk rom?

BTW: the HES file is using the TIMER interrupt to set the tempo. I raised it to 72hz (through the debugger).. sounds pretty great at high tempo too (nice high energy sound).

[Speedy]

I can confirm it works on Everdrive. Black screen but the sound is amazing!

Weird, I get a

and a selection between 256 tracks whenever I boot it up in Mednafen. PCEjin doesn't show me any of that however. As a note, most of those tracks are either nothing at all or really glitchy sounds. Some of them are just track 1. I'm getting the idea that the ROM exporter is broken.

Do you have any graphics or animation you'd like to throw together for this hes to be a single music disk rom?

Just something simple, like the one I linked in this post.

By the way, if any of you want to play with the DMF for this, I uploaded it to the Deflemask forums. http://www.deflemask.com/forum/show-off-your-work/(pc-engine)-back_again-mod/msg5621/#new

[Bonknuts]

That waveform pic you linked to, is part of the HES player in mednafen and not the HES file itself. The HES file, which is actually just a PCE rom, doesn't contain any graphics. If a program on the PC or whatever computer system is showing something, then that's completely part of the that software itself and not the rom.

 I don't think it's possible to do the waveform like that on the PCE, because we don't have direct access to it via reading the DAC output. Well, maybe by emulating it via phase accumulation, etc - but that would be a ton of work. I was taking about maybe a logo in the background and some scrolling text? Ala "intro" style.