Author Topic: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...  (Read 5959 times)

TheOldMan

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2016, 05:32:31 PM »
Quote
Though technically there at least 900k linear addressing available as open bus space that no addon every used.

So I -could- map in another 512K chip without bus conflicts?
Hmm, maybe I should learn to program a cpld (or whatever) chip....

SamIAm

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #136 on: June 16, 2016, 10:07:58 PM »
In the interest of fairness, I'll share a couple of things I've just read on the PC Engine's Japanese wikipedia page.

HE-SYSTEM is a "standard" (規格), and the logo is used for licensing purposes. In other words, it seems like pure legal branding and not like a real title for anything.

Also, the article talks about the Core Concept (コア構想), an official term that I know I've seen elsewhere. The idea, as we all basically know already, was to have one heart, or one driving "engine" at the center of a variety of peripherals including different media formats.

Yes, from day one, that meant the CD system.

You know, I can come out of this with a renewed appreciation and deeper understanding of Hudson's inspiration, creative process and marketing, including their attempt to expand the very definition of what a console could be into a new direction. Mentally, I have revised the assessment I made in the very first sentences of my very first post in this argument from "PCE and CD = One system? Not from a user's perspective." to "PCE and CD = One system? Not necessarily from a user's perspective."

OTOH, I still stand firm that Hudson's crazy dreaming, for all the wonderful things it gave us, did not always materialize into reality in quite the way they first saw it. Their visions were not completely consistent and went in a lot of directions at once. Their naming alone couldn't have been that good, or else I wouldn't have to keep typing "the Hucard system" or "the base PCE" or whatever just to make sure you all know I'm talking about that one square-shaped white-or-grey thing that only plays Hucards.

If you want to think of the base-PCE-Hucard system, the SuperGrafx, the CD-ROM2, the Super System Card 3.0, the Duo and the Arcade Card as all fitting into one tight PC Engine concept, I wouldn't tell you you're wrong. Even I like to shorthand a lot of things as "PCE" when I'm typing up a message. However, if you feel that in reality, the systems and libraries naturally separate out into at least two very distinctive groups, Hucard and CD, and if you feel that there seems to be an honesty and simplicity from a user perspective to thinking of things on these terms...well, I'd agree with you.

That goes whether you're a western gamer in 2016 or a Japanese gamer in the late 80s/early 90s thinking to yourself "57,300 yen? 1000x storage capacity? Separate and exclusive game library? Pop idols and anime girls galore? Peripheral my ass; this CD thing's a console of its own!"

(How much do you want to bet that if Sony unveiled $1000 peripheral for the PS4 that fractured it this much, people would lose their minds and refuse to accept it as just a peripheral?)

Also, if you want to tell me that the CD system, for all it costs and for all it provides, is ultimately no different from a mouse or a lightgun and/or does nothing for software but make it a little higher fidelity or whatever, I reserve the right to suspect you've been smoking whatever Hudson was when they came up with the Power Console.

Speaking of which, can-of-worms time: is the SuperGrafx really a PC Engine, too, or was it a separate console? Japanese doesn't have plurals, so I can't tell you whether it was supposed to be Core Concept or Cores Concept. Call me crazy, but I suspect it was supposed to be the former initially.

Anyway, in conclusion, rather than inducting a newbie by telling him to think of the PC Engine as being more like 1.5-ish systems and having at least two different libraries, I think I'll just start by telling him it's all a goddamn mess and he better brace himself.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 01:18:00 AM by SamIAm »

StarDust4Ever

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #137 on: June 16, 2016, 10:50:02 PM »
Which all goes back to the "onion layers" side of things I mentioned earlier. Turbo/PCe collective libraries and hardware configurations are like a giant onion.

Software:[ul][li]Japanese Hucard[/li][li]US Hucard[/li][li]Supergrafx[/li][li]CDROM[/li][li]Super/CD2[/li][li]CD3[/li][li]Arcade[/li][/ul]
Hardware:[ul][li]PCe/Coregrafx[/li][li]PCe/Coregrafx + Tennokoe[/li][li]Turbografx[/li][li]Turbografx + Booster Plus[/li][li]Supergrafx[/li][li]PCe/Coregrafx + IFU "Briefcase"[/li][li]Turbografx + Base + CDROM[/li][li]PCe/Coregrafx + piggyback CDROM[/li][li]Supergrafx + piggyback CDROM[/li][li]PCe Duo[/li][li]PCe Duo R[/li][li]Turbo Duo[/li][/ul]
Then there are different classes of system cards needed to play the same CD games based on whether your CD unit has the extra RAM or not. The sheer variety of hardware NEC put out actually makes the Genesis/Megadrive revisions and addons look good by comparison:

Software:
[ul][li]SMS[/li][li]Genesis/MD[/li][li]SegaCD[/li][li]32X[/li][li]32X CD[/li][/ul]
Hardware:
[ul][li]Genesis/MD Model 1[/li][li]Genesis/MD Model 2[/li][li]+ Power Base Converter (model 1)[/li][li]+ Power Base Converter (model 2 - rare)[/li][li]+ SegaCD Model 1[/li][li]+ SegaCD Model 2[/li][li]CDX[/li][li]+ 32X[/li][li]+ SegaCD + 32X[/li][li]Genesis Model 3 (does not work with any add-ons)[/li][/ul]
Now look at how clean Nintendo looked by comparison:

Software:
[ul][li]SNES/SFC[/li][/ul]
Hardware:
[ul][li]SNES/SFC[/li][li]SNES/SFC Mini[/li][li]Super Game Boy :D[/li][/ul]
All SNES systems played all SNES games (regardless of what extra bits the developers crammed in the carts). Simple and elegant. Almost kinda glad the Sony/Phillips CD addon thingy failed... :roll:

@SamIAm: Good writeup on the Japanese thingy. It seems that Sony and Microsoft are both hedging their bets on incremental "version 1.5" upgrades to their consoles. Well it worked with New 3DS at least. But MS/Sony just claim they want to provide a smoother gameplay experience with their games. But developers are going to push their luck resulting in games poorly optimized for the "stock" console, or flat out not run, and then you have the fragmented userbase issue. They should take a look at the history of 4th gen addons to see why it's a bad idea.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 11:19:46 PM by StarDust4Ever »

SamIAm

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2016, 12:06:23 AM »
All SNES systems played all SNES games (regardless of what extra bits the developers crammed in the carts). Simple and elegant. Almost kinda glad the Sony/Phillips CD addon thingy failed... :roll:

@SamIAm: Good writeup on the Japanese thingy. It seems that Sony and Microsoft are both hedging their bets on incremental "version 1.5" upgrades to their consoles. Well it worked with New 3DS at least. But MS/Sony just claim they want to provide a smoother gameplay experience with their games. But developers are going to push their luck resulting in games poorly optimized for the "stock" console, or flat out not run, and then you have the fragmented userbase issue. They should take a look at the history of 4th gen addons to see why it's a bad idea.

I love the elegance of the console concept, too, and I think it's a pity that it seems in danger of breaking down.

However, I'm really glad that the PCE got the CD system. If it hadn't, I think the story would have mostly ended sometime in 1992 even in Japan, and who knows if there really would have been a successor system in that case. But instead, we got a lot of years of games that were like nothing else. They had truly unbelievable music, and they made really fascinating (if occasionally clumsy) attempts at adding lavish cutscenes and voice acting to all kinds of genres to make the experiences into something higher. At times, the sheer quantity of content, even in the dumb fan-service digital comic games from later on, was simply immense.

I hope you get one someday.  :D
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 01:14:43 AM by SamIAm »

elmer

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2016, 04:05:25 AM »
Quote
Though technically there at least 900k linear addressing available as open bus space that no addon every used.

So I -could- map in another 512K chip without bus conflicts?
Hmm, maybe I should learn to program a cpld (or whatever) chip....

Sure, just take a look at the map, there's plenty of space. Banks $A0-$DF for instance.

But I don't know why you would intrude on that area when you could just add a 2nd-level of banking like on the Street Fighter II card.  :-k

You can add as many MB as you please by extending that scheme.


How much do you want to bet that if Sony unveiled $1000 peripheral for the PS4 that fractured it this much, people would lose their minds and refuse to accept it as just a peripheral?

You mean like a $399 PlayStation VR that's really going to need you to upgrade your PlayStation 4 to the new 4.5 Neo model in order to run it properly?  :-k

No, you're right. Something like that could never happen these days!  :wink:
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:18:02 AM by elmer »

Necromancer

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #140 on: June 17, 2016, 04:26:23 AM »
CD3

What's this?  There's only three official CD formats (CD-ROM2, Super CD-ROM2, and Arcade CD-ROM2), so maybe you meant the GE games? 

Now look at how clean Nintendo looked by comparison:

Software:
Japanese Cartridge
US Cartridge
Data Packs
Nintendo Power

/SFC

Hardware:
SFC
SNES
SFC w/ S-Video
SNES w/ S-Video
SFC Mini
SNES Mini
Satellaview
SuFami Turbo (third party but licensed and required to play certain titles)

<< fixed >>

It's not so clean when made more consistent with how you did the PCE's lists and with missing stuff added.

Your lists are terribly inconsistent and omit a lot of stuff.  Why count the SFC/SNES and SFC/SNES mini, the three MD/Genny models, and the Duos as separate and distinct models but not the PCE, CoreGrafx, and CoreGrafx II; and why are you only counting the most obvious hardware revisions in the first place?  There's several hardware revisions within the main model designations (often internal only) that're just as important to the end user.... or rather unimportant.  And where's the Duo-RX LaserActive, LT, GT, TurboExpress, Shuttle, Teradrive, Nomad, MegaJet, WonderMega, WonderMega 2, Multi-Mega, Firecore, Amstrad Mega PC, or the Aiwa Mega-CD thingy?


TL;DR - I don't know if it's pro-Nintendo bias, more trolling, or if he's just plain uninformed, but stardust really doesn't know what the f*ck he's talking about.
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TheOldMan

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #141 on: June 17, 2016, 05:53:27 AM »
Quote
Sure, just take a look at the map, there's plenty of space. Banks $A0-$DF for instance.

I knew the space was there, but I'm not an electronics guy so I wasn't sure if the banks were mirrored or not. I'd like to avoid any bus conflict, and it's nice to know they aren't active on the bus.

Quote
But I don't know why you would intrude on that area when you could just add a 2nd-level of banking like on the Street Fighter II card.

Because theres an easier way than creating a new mapper on a cpld :)

StarDust4Ever

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #142 on: June 17, 2016, 09:26:17 AM »
CD3

What's this?  There's only three official CD formats (CD-ROM2, Super CD-ROM2, and Arcade CD-ROM2), so maybe you meant the GE games? 

TL;DR - I don't know if it's pro-Nintendo bias, more trolling, or if he's just plain uninformed, but stardust really doesn't know what the f*ck he's talking about.
Well there are three system cards plus the arcade Pro so I assumed each one played a different class of CD games, with the highest class playing all of them.

Also how the heck is an SNES with Svideo cable a separate system? All SNES systems have Svideo out built in. There are no peripherals that change the system in a fundamental way that allows you to play new games you can't otherwise on a stock system. The lone exception is the Super Game Boy.

Sure the Everdrive may not play chipped games, but the carts simply work. You don't have to buy additional hardware if you have the game. My SNES, Genesis, and Turbografx are all stock base model. So I got the import adapter for Turbografx and cut tabs on the SNES for playing imports. The Genesis/MD library trumps the CD/32X add-on libraries in every way. In fact they were still making Genesis games long after the addons were discontinued.

Had the Duo come out in the late 80s, then there would be no issue with the library. It would be like the SMS with both cards and carts. Fact is, there is library fragmentation, therefore they aren't the same. Nobody refers to FDS disks as Famicom games, even though the Famicom had the equivalent of the Duo with the Twin system. Nobody refers to SegaCD as Genesis/Megadrive games even though Sega made their own Duo equivalent with the CDX.

Supergrafx is not branded as a PC Engine. The only reason Hucards and CDs are considered part of the same library is that they lack distinctive branding, which is purely a marketing decision. Hudson/NEC was still cranking out Hucard games in the US through 1993 and in Japan through 1994. And the late release Hucard games even had Duo branding on the packagining, at least in the US.

Furthermore, before anyone brings up enhancements like the N64 RAM expansion, it doesn't actually change the cart interface. The games that require it pluginto the same interface. No "piggyback" addons needed for Zelda MM, DK64, or Perfect Dark. The 64DD, however, like the FDS, is it's own system.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 09:36:22 AM by StarDust4Ever »

StarDust4Ever

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #143 on: June 17, 2016, 09:38:41 AM »
Quote
Though technically there at least 900k linear addressing available as open bus space that no addon every used.

So I -could- map in another 512K chip without bus conflicts?
Hmm, maybe I should learn to program a cpld (or whatever) chip....

Sure, just take a look at the map, there's plenty of space. Banks $A0-$DF for instance.

But I don't know why you would intrude on that area when you could just add a 2nd-level of banking like on the Street Fighter II card.  :-k

You can add as many MB as you please by extending that scheme.


How much do you want to bet that if Sony unveiled $1000 peripheral for the PS4 that fractured it this much, people would lose their minds and refuse to accept it as just a peripheral?

You mean like a $399 PlayStation VR that's really going to need you to upgrade your PlayStation 4 to the new 4.5 Neo model in order to run it properly?  :-k

No, you're right. Something like that could never happen these days!  :wink:
VR will always be niche item and fail to penetrate the mass market. Just look at Virtual Boy.

deubeul

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #144 on: June 17, 2016, 09:42:26 AM »

Supergrafx is not branded as a PC Engine.








Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx?





StarDust4Ever

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #145 on: June 17, 2016, 09:46:07 AM »

Supergrafx games are not branded as a PC Engine.


Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx?
Fixed.

SignOfZeta

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #146 on: June 17, 2016, 09:46:12 AM »



Quote
VR will always be niche item and fail to penetrate the mass market. Just look at Virtual Boy.

Ok, that was the stupidest thing you've said yet.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 09:48:36 AM by SignOfZeta »

deubeul

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #147 on: June 17, 2016, 09:52:24 AM »

Supergrafx games are not branded as a PC Engine.



Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx?
Fixed.






Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx game?


« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 09:55:33 AM by deubeul »

mickcris

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #148 on: June 17, 2016, 09:57:14 AM »

Supergrafx games are not branded as a PC Engine.



Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx?
Fixed.






Hmmm,  I don't have my glasses, could you read me what is written next to "Supegrafx", on this Supergrafx game?




On the right it looks like it says 7UC and then 2 waffle fries.

Necromancer

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #149 on: June 17, 2016, 10:17:22 AM »
Well there are three system cards plus the arcade Pro so I assumed each one played a different class of CD games....

You assumed wrong, as the 1.0 and 2.x cards are both CD-ROM2.

Also how the heck is an SNES with Svideo cable a separate system?

The same way a TG-16 with TurboBooster+ qualifies as a separate system.  It's handy to have, sure, but no games require it.

There are no peripherals that change the system in a fundamental way that allows you to play new games you can't otherwise on a stock system.

Wrong again.  You might want to research the Satellaview, SuFami Turbo, and Nintendo Power peripherals and educate yourself.

Supergrafx is not branded as a PC Engine.

Are you back to trolling or are you really this ignorant? 

Furthermore, before anyone brings up enhancements like the N64 RAM expansion, it doesn't actually change the cart interface. The games that require it pluginto the same interface.

And that's different from the PCE's system cards how exactly?
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