Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...

[SignOfZeta]

That's a good point. I didn't consider that there was a time when ONLY Duos were for sale, at least I'm pretty sure that by 1993 they weren't making any HuCARD-only systems. That sorta cements the theory. It would be like if the 32X was a hit and the Neptune became the only Genesis system for sale. Of course, Sega of the 90s being what they were, even if the 32X was a hit they'd figure out some excuse to continue manufacturing multiple unprofitable machines.

Btw, nobody has mentioned the HE System logo and how it's used to describe all PCE soft and hardware under the same blanket...obviously only on the JP side.

[StarDust4Ever]

That's a good point. I didn't consider that there was a time when ONLY Duos were for sale, at least I'm pretty sure that by 1993 they weren't making any HuCARD-only systems. That sorta cements the theory. It would be like if the 32X was a hit and the Neptune became the only Genesis system for sale. Of course, Sega of the 90s being what they were, even if the 32X was a hit they'd figure out some excuse to continue manufacturing multiple unprofitable machines.

Btw, nobody has mentioned the HE System logo and how it's used to describe all PCE soft and hardware under the same blanket...obviously only on the JP side.

HE on every Hucard and CDROM, just like the rectangle Turbografx logo on all the US games.

Part of the issue for me at least, is the fact that price is a significant hurdle to getting in on the Turbografx scene. On the cheap end of things, a person could have access to the entire Hucard library on real hardware for $160 or so. A Coregrafx, an Everdrive, a Genesis Model 1 or equivalent 9-10V DC negative tip barrel adapter, a hacked MIDI-to-RCA cable, and any miniDIN PCe or Duo controller.

Getting access to SuperCD games is at least twice the hardware cost and barrier to entry, possibly more. Then there's multiple regions of hardware to deal with, multiple system cards, and addons galore. Doesn't help that most competing CD systems of the time were just full of a bunch of FMV crap with 240p video that doesn't date well. That and the Atari Jaguar plus the CDROM attachment was almost as big a commercial flop as the Nintendo Virtual Boy.

I am starting to get people's points though on the hardware side of things. PCe/Turbo had a wonderfully designed expansion port with almost everything one could possibly need access to, while Sega just cludged together addons like hardware with bad tumors. I have seen the "Sega Tower" pics with a Sega CD unit at the bottom with a Genesis on top with a 32X on top with a Game Genie or Knuckles followed by a power base topped off with an SMS cart. Sega pretty much killed their own market with the addon tech, then released the Saturn followed by the Dreamcast with barely two years interim between each system.

Still there's a huge variety of hardware for PCe/Turbo, but still a Japanese Duo or Briefcase plus a Turbografx base model will let you play almost everything. Or a Supergrafx paired with a region-modded Duo will truly allow access to the complete library. I've got the db Electronics PC Henshin region converter that lets me play Japanese Hucards on my TG-16, but the cost of upgrading my Turbografx to play CDs would be astronomical. That and I still have a soft spot for cartridge based systems. Always will...

[Bonknuts]

Still there's a huge variety of hardware for PCe/Turbo, but still a Japanese Duo or Briefcase plus a Turbografx base model will let you play almost everything. Or a Supergrafx paired with a region-modded Duo will truly allow access to the complete library. I've got the db Electronics PC Henshin region converter that lets me play Japanese Hucards on my TG-16, but the cost of upgrading my Turbografx to play CDs would be astronomical. That and I still have a soft spot for cartridge based systems. Always will...

 Get a Duo (whatever model) and be done with it. That was ALWAYS the smartest option. There might be lots different configurations, but in the end a Duo unit is the best, simplest, and cheapest route. Building a PCE+briefcase or TG+CD, or SGX+SCD (which you didn't mention), are possibilities - but they aren't the norm. For some people, it's all about flavor.

 If you have PC-Engine or related Core Grafx unit, don't get a briefcase model unless you're into that look specifically (first gen CD units have their issues with CD-Rs). Get a SuperCDROM^2 addon. They have a built in system card already (3.0). They play CD-Rs all day long. And.. they cost (last I checked) less than a Duo unit. But starting out with hucards only and then upgrading to CD games later, as a gamer nowadays, is always going to cost you more in the long run. A lot of retro gamers have seemed to regret this step.

 Those of us who were there when the system started out and then transitioned over to the Duo, saw first hand how CD games replaced all hucard games. It was extremely evident. And we continued to play PCE game, now CD, until the softs stop coming out. So to us old timers, it's ALL the same. Just like PC games... you got floppy disk games, CD games, etc all back in the day.. but they were all PC games. Anyway, point is - is that people who didn't experience the PCE systems BITD, don't have the experience and concept of how all this played out. The SegaCD was very popular outside of Japan (even if you didn't own it), so people looked at the TG/PCE CD games in much the same light, when they couldn't have been more different.

[Black Tiger]

That's a good point. I didn't consider that there was a time when ONLY Duos were for sale, at least I'm pretty sure that by 1993 they weren't making any HuCARD-only systems. That sorta cements the theory. It would be like if the 32X was a hit and the Neptune became the only Genesis system for sale. Of course, Sega of the 90s being what they were, even if the 32X was a hit they'd figure out some excuse to continue manufacturing multiple unprofitable machines.

Btw, nobody has mentioned the HE System logo and how it's used to describe all PCE soft and hardware under the same blanket...obviously only on the JP side.

HE on every Hucard and CDROM, just like the rectangle Turbografx logo on all the US games.

Part of the issue for me at least, is the fact that price is a significant hurdle to getting in on the Turbografx scene. On the cheap end of things, a person could have access to the entire Hucard library on real hardware for $160 or so. A Coregrafx, an Everdrive, a Genesis Model 1 or equivalent 9-10V DC negative tip barrel adapter, a hacked MIDI-to-RCA cable, and any miniDIN PCe or Duo controller.

What old stuff costs to collectors today doesn't determine what "counts" as part of the library. Around the launch of the SNES, you could buy a new Turbo CD + new TG-16 with games for about the same price as a new SNES.

Getting access to SuperCD games is at least twice the hardware cost and barrier to entry, possibly more. Then there's multiple regions of hardware to deal with, multiple system cards, and addons galore. Doesn't help that most competing CD systems of the time were just full of a bunch of FMV crap with 240p video that doesn't date well. That and the Atari Jaguar plus the CDROM attachment was almost as big a commercial flop as the Nintendo Virtual Boy.

When they introduced the CD-ROM, before the launch of the PC Engine, and for a while after the first PCE CD games became available, there were no competing CD systems. The Sega-CD was the only competing CD system and it wasn't full of fmv games (<18%(?) of the library could be labeled "fmv", even if that's still misleading). Crap or otherwise, none of the fmv was 240p, more like 64p - 128p. The Turbo/PCE has fewer regions than competing consoles, fewer game formats than the Genesis world and you can play all of the roms on a flashcard, unlike SNES, which needs all of those different chips.

I am starting to get people's points though on the hardware side of things. PCe/Turbo had a wonderfully designed expansion port with almost everything one could possibly need access to, while Sega just cludged together addons like hardware with bad tumors. I have seen the "Sega Tower" pics with a Sega CD unit at the bottom with a Genesis on top with a 32X on top with a Game Genie or Knuckles followed by a power base topped off with an SMS cart. Sega pretty much killed their own market with the addon tech, then released the Saturn followed by the Dreamcast with barely two years interim between each system.

Still there's a huge variety of hardware for PCe/Turbo, but still a Japanese Duo or Briefcase plus a Turbografx base model will let you play almost everything. Or a Supergrafx paired with a region-modded Duo will truly allow access to the complete library. I've got the db Electronics PC Henshin region converter that lets me play Japanese Hucards on my TG-16, but the cost of upgrading my Turbografx to play CDs would be astronomical. That and I still have a soft spot for cartridge based systems. Always will...

A SuperGrafx + Duo still won't play ACDs or LD2s.

The cost of adding an overpriced collectible to another overpriced collectible is irrelevant when you can buy an all-in-one for less than one and sometimes less than the other can be sold for. Or when superior versions of each are a fraction of the price. It's like saying that it's not worth getting your 32X working, because Wondermegas cost too much.

[SignOfZeta]

There are a few crazy ideas here I'd like to completely shitcan, if possible.

1) the idea that CDs and cards are different SYSTEMS because CDROM2 gear is expensive is nuts. Even if there were no functional surviving CDROM2s on the planet they would still be the same systems. You're confusing narcissism with technology. The Phantom Menace is still a Star Wars movie even if it's terrible and you're a SW fan. You're just going to have to reconcile that. Deciding those things is the privilege of the creator. Not you. You could have never have been born and "PC Engine" would still decribe both cards and CDs. The universe is a cold and unforgiving place. I'm sorry for you and for all of us.

2) to my knowledge there is no known relationship between the ability to play CDRs and which CDROM2 system you have. I've played CDRs in everything from a IFU30 set to a Laseractive. There are a lot of theories flying around here about CDRs and PCEs and a lot of them are more Fox News when what we need is more like NASA. Fewer hunches and more facts are needed and the fact is that, if in good condition, any model of PCE can play CDRs. If yours doesn't that doesn't change anything, see item 1.

There was a time when I would lead people away from the early CDROM2 because they were failing middle gears like mad and many were dead for other reasons. These days they can be repaired by a number of people and spare parts are easy to get. Because of this I can't think of any reason to talk people out of briefcase units or TG-CDs (other than that the TG-16+CD is honestly really bad looking from a design perspective and way too big). You're going to need to turn some pots or recap something or at least install a new controller port in almost any PCE system, if not then the guy you bought it from probably did.

3) harder to articulate...this drive to identify the cheapest way to play the largest variety of software, talk about it constantly, and poke holes in any other ways of doing it...(i.e.: just get a flash card, just get a flash card, I have a flash card, it's awesome. Buy one. Legit copies are for dummies. Just get a flash card)...it sorta misses the point. Maybe your system can play 250 games, maybe it can play 800 games. It doesn't matter because very few people who own or who have ever owned a PCE system will beat more than like...32 games, maybe. The other 800 will remain unplayed or maybe played for 8 seconds when you're channel flipping on your PCE or an emulator. Don't worry about SuperGrafx or Arcade Card. Having %100 compatibility isn't going to make Air Zonk any more fun. If you like Sapphire a lot then by all means buy an Arcade Card, but don't buy a SGX because it can play the five games your CoreGrafx can't. There are at least 25 PCE games that are better than any SGX game. The SGX sucks. Unless you like those five games you're wasting your time and money (and space).  If you like the SGX, that's cool too, but it being the right or wrong choice fiscally or because it increases your PCE compatibility should be beside the point.

[esteban]

Clarification: the TG-16 + TG-CD is a more cohesive and superior design to the PCE + IFU design.

SUCK ON THAT, Zeta.

Seriously. TG-CD is a streamlined, magnificent  beast.

[Gredler]

Clarification: the TG-16 + TG-CD is a more cohesive and superior design to the PCE + IFU design.

SUCK ON THAT, Zeta.

Seriously. TG-CD is a streamlined, magnificent  beast.

IFU Stands for "Is f*cking Ugly"

Amirite?!

[wiseau]

I too like the giant toilet that hooks up to the back of my turbo grafx, now if only i could find one that's not 400+, and doesn't already come with a turbo grafx, and has a working save...

Come to think of it, what DOES the turbo Booster/CD use to save games?

[SignOfZeta]

Clarification: the TG-16 + TG-CD is a more cohesive and superior design to the PCE + IFU design.

SUCK ON THAT, Zeta.

Seriously. TG-CD is a streamlined, magnificent  beast.

This doesn't make any sense. Bait me with something funnier next time.

[Zero_Gamer]

Clarification: the TG-16 + TG-CD is a more cohesive and superior design to the PCE + IFU design.

SUCK ON THAT, Zeta.

Seriously. TG-CD is a streamlined, magnificent  beast.

I agree. The TG setup is a sexy beast. It reminds me of a Klingon warship lol

[SamIAm]

Maybe I'm just being a simpleton, but I can't think of these as one monolithic console.

I mean, from a hardware-designer's perspective, OK. From a programmer's perspective, sure. From a modern collector's perspective ... well, maybe. Hudson's marketing tried to steer everyone toward thinking of them as one system, too.

However, from a user's perspective, especially from the period and especially in Japan, no way.

Users don't really care what's going on under the hood, and smart users don't care about labels. They care how much things cost, and they care what their hardware can do.

I don't think you could tell PC Engine users with a straight face that the CD systems, which until their twilight years were fantastically more expensive than base Hucard systems, were nothing but minor upgrades or missing puzzle-pieces that they had to have in order to say that they had a complete PC Engine. In both major regions, far more people owned systems that could only play Hucards than could somehow play CDs. Did this majority somehow only have half the console?

Furthermore, the base Hucard system as a practical matter couldn't do any of the fancypants voice/cutscene/redbook things that almost singlehandledly sold CD games. It's not some tiny sound upgrade. Let's be honest: CD games, by and large, were not possible on Hucards.

I guess it comes down to how you define a "console" and "console games". To me, there's a certain uniformity to the idea, or a certain standardization, and anything that causes one guy to be able to play a game and another guy to not be able to play a game violates that whole concept. By definition, it becomes necessary to say that these guys have two different consoles.

In the same vein, I don't think of the Famicom Disk System as being the same as the Famicom, either - although the line blurs just a little because of the way FDS games became producible as-is on cartridges. I also am not really impressed that the PCE-CD outlived the base system. Even if the 32X had caught on and outlived the Genesis, I'd still think of them as separate if closely related systems.

[StarDust4Ever]

Maybe I'm just being a simpleton, but I can't think of these as one monolithic console.

I mean, from a hardware-designer's perspective, OK. From a programmer's perspective, sure. From a modern collector's perspective ... well, maybe. Hudson's marketing tried to steer everyone toward thinking of them as one system, too.

However, from a user's perspective, especially from the period and especially in Japan, no way.

Users don't really care what's going on under the hood, and smart users don't care about labels. They care how much things cost, and they care what their hardware can do.

I don't think you could tell PC Engine users with a straight face that the CD systems, which until their twilight years were fantastically more expensive than base Hucard systems, were nothing but minor upgrades or missing puzzle-pieces that they had to have in order to say that they had a complete PC Engine. In both major regions, far more people owned systems that could only play Hucards than could somehow play CDs. Did this majority somehow only have half the console?

Furthermore, the base Hucard system as a practical matter couldn't do any of the fancypants voice/cutscene/redbook things that almost singlehandledly sold CD games. It's not some tiny sound upgrade. Let's be honest: CD games, by and large, were not possible on Hucards.

I guess it comes down to how you define a "console" and "console games". To me, there's a certain uniformity to the idea, or a certain standardization, and anything that causes one guy to be able to play a game and another guy to not be able to play a game violates that whole concept. By definition, it becomes necessary to say that these guys have two different consoles.

In the same vein, I don't think of the Famicom Disk System as being the same as the Famicom, either - although the line blurs just a little because of the way FDS games became producible as-is on cartridges. I also am not really impressed that the PCE-CD outlived the base system. Even if the 32X had caught on and outlived the Genesis, I'd still think of them as separate if closely related systems.

I like the way you think.

The very fact that certain users are excluded from playing games based on their unique hardware setups either becuse they cannot afford or do not want to purchase the required hardware, speaks volumes. There is a reason why the base consoles are 2 or 3 times less expensive than the CDROM units. It is because as you said, the CDROM units were like $200-$300 bitd when they came out, in addition to the base models. Sure some of them broke down over the years, but suffice to say that more users were stuck with the base model hardware. Why else did they continue to release Hucard games for the small but dedicated fanbase that refused to adopt the CDROM even into 1994?

Where is NEC now? It's not like I can just go out to Babbages or K&B Toys and buy a NIB Duo because I want access to the SuperCDROM library. The lower availability of CDROM units dictates that fewer gamers will have access to the disc games than the card games. One could even go further to argue that the 5 Supergrafx games discriminate against non-supergrafx owning customers. Likewise the disc game library discriminates against Hucard only users. The SuperCD System3 and Arcade System games discriminate against owners who only have a system2 card.

PCe >< TG16 thanks to the pinouts. I would even argue the PCe library is less discriminatory than the TG16 because the Hucard ROMs don't check the system region. Hudson/NEC could have easily plugged that loophole by adding a region check code to Hucard games to prevent them booting on US hardware. Nintendo started enforcing PAL/NTSC software lockout once piggyback adapters surfaced. Glad Hudson/NEC didn't go that route.

Basically the PC Engine / Turbografx is like an onion. You got layers, and each new layer requires more hardware to gain access to ever-exclusive clubs. So I'm a level one, actually level two with either the pin adapter, mod, or everdrive allowing me to bypass region lock. 1a = PC Engine; 1b = TG-16. Level 2 = both region hucards. Level 3a, 4, and 5 are the CD systems, ending with Arcade. Level 3b is the Supergrafx. Don't let the smallish number fool you. That club is super exclusive.

So I've worked up the rank from 1b to 2. Yay! And I happily accept my position for the time being. But if we define games by the hardware necessary to play them, no, they are not equivalent.

[Punch]

Rank 4 forever and ever

edit: supergrafx is such an oddity and different from the usual NEC tree that it really should be considered something like "Rank 三" lol.

PC-FX is rank Welcome to Pia Carrot.

[StarDust4Ever]

PC-FX isn't a PC Engine though, just another system to collect for. Is it backwards compatible with SuperCD games? Didn't think so. I guess it's like comparing the SegaCD to a Saturn. I really need to stop comparing NEC/Hudson to Sega...

[deubeul]

1a = PC Engine; 1b = TG-16. Level 2 = both region hucards. Level 3a, 4, and 5 are the CD systems, ending with Arcade. Level 3b is the Supergrafx. Don't let the smallish number fool you. That club is super exclusive.

So I've worked up the rank from 1b to 2. Yay! And I happily accept my position for the time being. But if we define games by the hardware necessary to play them, no, they are not equivalent.

So What's your point on Geny and MD? SF, SNES and Super Nintendo?  Not the same systems?