Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...

[hoobs88]

I wasn't aware of those. Thanks for clarifying!

[Necromancer]

There's at least two types of Games Express system cards. One of which can only be played on a Duo or Super CD combo.

True.  I guess that makes it six different systems.... or seven if you include the 1.0 card and Altered Beast........ or nine when you count the SGX and LA. 

[elmer]

This is all just craziness perpetrated by collectards in order to segment their obessions in to measurable goalposts so that they can see who has is the biggest tool! 

Here's an example that Americans will probably find a bit easier to understand that Europeans ...

Let say I'm buying a truck, but I think that I might want to buy a travel trailer later (large caravan to Brits).

The truck comes from the factory with a hitch so that I can attach the travel trailer, but if I'm going to be pulling a heavy travel trailer (my choice), then I'm going to need an larger cooler in the engine to stop it overheating, and I'm also going to need a brake-controller in order activate the electronic brakes on the trailer when I brake in the truck.

Now ... I can buy the truck in a "base" package that doesn't have any of these extra frills, because most people don't want them.

I can also buy the truck in a "limited" package that already includes the upgraded engine cooler and nice leather seats. But not the brake-controller.

But the dealer will quite-happily take my money to install the factory-supplied engine cooler package onto the "base" truck.

Either way, they'll charge me to add a brake controller.

So I can have ...

"base" package
"limited" package
"base" package, plus cooler upgrade, plus brake controller
"limited" package, plus brake controller

Only a very strange person thinks that these are all totally different trucks! 

IMHO, it's the same truck in all the cases, just with some options that I can choose to buy, or not, depending upon how I want to spend my time "playing".

The real "difference" comes when I'm deciding between a Ford, a Chevy, or a Toyota.

[Necromancer]

Don't forget the truck nuts!

[StarDust4Ever]

Before the Genesis and TG-16 launched, there was magazine coverage and ads showing the Turbo-CD along side the TG-16, with pics of the physical discs and screenshots of Monster Lair and Fighting Street. I got a Genesis at launch and became a Sega fanboy because magazines told me that it was a war and I had to choose a side. But even before I soon gave in and got a TG-16 with plans to buy the Turbo CD within months, I still never once thought of the CD games as a separate console or library. And throughout the console war generation, none of the hardcore and casual gamers I knew thought any different. I never even heard anyone try and argue something so silly until at least 15 years later. We didn't hear someone say the other day that 'technically' the CD-ROM predates the PCE launch. We lived reality ourselves.

Now we have people who didn't get into 16-bit for a decade or two and people who had a narrow isolated view at the time because their parents bought them a SNES (especially if they graduated from NES), trying to rewrite history and create rules for everything. No group feels the need for a selective sets rules more than SNES fans (with Nintendo fans close behind), who are stuck in a console war mentality and are so insecure about the console they know is superior either way. A 21Mhz cpu in a cart counts as a real game, but a CD game that uses no redbook or adpcm is fake. A Saturn game that uses a ram cart for extra load space the same as the PCE worked is fake. A Nintendo 64 game that uses an upgrade which physically replaces and increases the system ram is real.

The games are the games. Get over it.

Here's food for thought:

The Turbografx launched in 1988 or 89 or whenever. The exact date doesn't matter. Followed shortly thereafter were the CDROM docking unit which plugged into the expansion port of the console, CDROM unit, and system card, expanding it to play games with redbook audio on CDROM format. So starting off the bat you get the benefit of Turbochip games, followed thereafter by CDROM games if you plunk down the money for a CDROM unit, available separately for retail.

Must all be be the same system because you can play both Turbochips and CDROMs on a prperly equipped Turbografx, right? Keep reading...

The Nintendo Game Cube launched in 2001. Also launched in 2001 was the Game Boy Advance. Shortly thereafter followed the Game Boy Player, which included a docking unit that plugs into the expansion port of the Game Cube, and a special Game Boy Player disc which allows Game Boy and Game Boy Advance games to be played on the Game Cube hardware. One can argue that the expansion port on the base of the Game Cube was specifically designed to accomdate the Game Boy Player.

By that logic, the Game Cube was specifically designed to play Game Boy games. Therefore all Game Boy and Game Boy Advance games should be considered a part of the larger Game Cube library simply because they were playable on properly equipped Game Cube using an attachment available separately at retail.

See how silly that sounds? Nobody would argue that Game Boy Advance carts are Game Cube titles, nor that Super Game Boy enhanced Game Boy carts are somehow SNES games simply because they have an enhanced color pallet with screen borders and are playable on the TV through the game console. Well there was one specific Game Boy title, Space Invaders, with a built in 128 kbyte SNES ROM that executed from RAM, but I digress...

So if Game Boy Advance and Game Cube games are considered separate entities with unique libraries, then the Hucards and Super CDs should be considered separate libraries as well. All can be considered Duo games yes, but not all of them play on the original Turbografx / PC Engine, so blanketly referring to CDROMs as PCe or TG-16 games is a misnomer.

[ginoscope]

Don't forget the truck nuts!

You had to go there I have to see trucks with nuts on them everyday on the way home here in Texas.  Like who really thought it was a good idea to dangle nuts to the back of a pickup.  Talk about compensating lol.

Anyway on topic the way I have always seen it is that if I can use the system by itself then it's a new system.  In the case of turbo and sega cd those units would not function without the main unit.  I know the cdx, X-eye, and duo would debunk this theory but that is how I have always looked at it.

I remember when I got my CD system and being a CD snob and hucards were garbage lol.  I missed out on some great late releases like New Adventure Island and Neutopia 2.  If I could go back and slap 16 year old me I would.

[elmer]

By that logic, the Game Cube was specifically designed to play Game Boy games. Therefore all Game Boy and Game Boy Advance games should be considered a part of the larger Game Cube library simply because they were playable on properly equipped Game Cube using an attachment available separately at retail.

Errrr ... nope. And even suggesting such a silly thing makes me wonder if you're just trolling. 

Adding a completely different, and separately-released, console's hardware onto the bottom of the GameCube doesn't suddenly make a GameCube into a GBA in any sane person's eyes.

Neither did adding a Creative Labs 3DO Blaster into a PC suddenly make 3DO games into "PC" games, and nor does having a PC-FXGA in a PC suddenly make PC-FX games into "PC" games.

They're separate systems.

But adding a CD-ROM player into a PC so that you can play all the PC games that were released only on CD-ROM doesn't mean that those games (like Diablo, Myst, etc) suddenly aren't "PC" games and need a whole new "collecting" category.

There's a difference between expanding the storage means of an existing console/machine, and adding in the entire hardware from a different and separately-available console just so that you can play its library of games.

By your logic we should have totally different categories of PC games for 5.25" floppy, 3.5" floppy, CD, LD, DVD, and Blu-Ray.

That's "collector" thinking, not "player" thinking!

[Black Tiger]

The other day I saw a pair of silver nuts hanging off of the far right corner of the bumper of a cherry red old beater of a sports car. I imagined the driver looking similar to his car.

[SignOfZeta]

The GBA player is honestly a lot more like a Sega CD than a PCE CD in that it's loaded with chips. Most of a GBA is in a GB Player.

Which really makes it more like the old cards you could put in an Amiga 2000 that were basically an entire IBM AT. At that point it's kinda two systems at the same time.

For what it's worth, the argument that Mega CD is the same as Megadrive works perfectly to me, but for the fact that Sega made the stuff and they seem to think the add-ons make for different systems. It's not like there are any controller ports on a Mega CD, you need the Megadrive (a beautiful looking system, btw) to do anything so it's all just "Genesis" to me. Sega disagrees.

Similarly, if it's ever proven that Mona Lisa is a self portrait we're still going to call it Mona Lisa because that's what it's called per the guy that made it.

Going back to the metric of "will it run the same code":

PCE - %90

Mega CD - (depends, maybe %90, maybe very little)

GBPlayered out Cube - nothing

The GB Player argument is the worst one yet.

[esteban]

^ Beautiful?! Ridiculous.

[Bonknuts]

Haha. It's clear that the PCE outsiders have a very Sega/Nintendo centic view of PCE. Look, if you're stuck in such a mindset.. then that's all on you. The majority of people that had the Duos BITD regard the library as a single entity, with hucards being legacy. If you're so rigid that all definitions in the retro scene need to fit neatly together, universally, well.. sucks to be you. Good luck with that. Meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy the hucard and CD library as a single entity with worry or qualms.

[StarDust4Ever]

By that logic, the Game Cube was specifically designed to play Game Boy games. Therefore all Game Boy and Game Boy Advance games should be considered a part of the larger Game Cube library simply because they were playable on properly equipped Game Cube using an attachment available separately at retail.

Errrr ... nope. And even suggesting such a silly thing makes me wonder if you're just trolling. 

The point I was trying to make was that CD System started it's life as add on hardware. We also don't refer to GBA games as DS simply because they run on a DS Phat or DS Lite. In fact I played GBA more often than not on my DS Phat because the GBA SP was so tiny it hurt my man hands.

First came PCe. Then the CDROM. Then the Duo. I think we can both agree that SuperCD and Hucard are Duo games. The Duo system is an Umbrella over both formats. The original PC Engine and Tubografx only played Hucards. So when I think of PCe or TG-16, I think of Hucards. When I hear the name Duo, I think of both.

So the all encompassing Duo system is both formats. That's why it's called a "Duo" meaning two. PC Engine or Turbografx simply did not ship with CDROM capability, so the Super CD cannot fit under the umbrella of stock hardware. Just compare these two images. Do they look remotely like the same thing?



I own Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon on CD and I also own it on vinyl record. Additionally, I own MOON8 by Brad Smith, a demake for the NES as chiptune album. I would not consider the CD and Vinyl release of DSOTM as part of the same format, and certainly not the chiptune cart which sounds nothing like the other two.


Same album, different format. Likewise I wouldn't consider the CD and Hucard versions of Bonk III the same format either, even if it plays mostly the same on a Duo system. You can't play CDs in a record player any more than you can play SuperCDs on a stock PCe/Turbo. The media is incompatible.

[Punch]

This is the dumbest argument yet, and you still stand by it. Ok.

[Black Tiger]

So the all encompassing Duo system is both formats. That's why it's called a "Duo" meaning two. PC Engine or Turbografx simply did not ship with CDROM capability, so the Super CD cannot fit under the umbrella of stock hardware. Just compare these two images. Do they look remotely like the same thing?

The SG-1000 simply did not ship with Sega My Card capability, so the Sega My Card cannot fit under the umbrella of stock hardware.

Just compare these two games. Do they look remotely like the same thing?

[SamIAm]

Only a very strange person thinks that these are all totally different trucks! 

IMHO, it's the same truck in all the cases, just with some options that I can choose to buy, or not, depending upon how I want to spend my time "playing".

The real "difference" comes when I'm deciding between a Ford, a Chevy, or a Toyota.

Surely you are looking at different lines of vehicles from those manufacturers, right? A Camry vs. a Carolla, that kind of thing.

Assuming that you are, here's a question: how different does a car have to be in order for you the consumer to accept it as belonging in an entirely different line, and not merely being a variant? Will changing the body alone do it? Will changing the stuff under the hood alone do it? It's not an easy question to answer, and I think we could get a range of subjective takes.

My point is this: if the manufacturer added something to one model that more than doubled its price and gave it the ability to do something really fantastic that no other vehicle could do, would they be justified in giving it a different name and selling it as its own line even if all the other stuff was the same as another line?

I think they would.

This is why dismissing the CD drive as "just storage" like it's some minor option is doing it a disservice IMHO. From a user-centric viewpoint, especially in the context of the time, it practically makes the PC Engine into a car that can drive underwater. A little sound upgrade, like the Master System's FM module, would be a minor option, but they weren't selling this as a little sound upgrade. One Japanese ad I saw said "This system can hold games 1000x larger than Dragon Quest 3!"

Now, did Hudson and co. brand the CD system as a new line? Well, no. Branding, frankly, is the main reason why I think old-timers say it's all PCE.

Alternatively, was Sega's "Welcome To The Next Level" nothing but hype, and the Mega CD nothing but a Siamese twin-head that suddenly sprang out of the Mega Drive's collar one day? Perhaps it was.

And perhaps it mostly doesn't matter!

Mostly, I don't think about this at all. The only reason why I'm giving my two cents now is because I believe that if you're going to lay out the history for future generations and newcomers like StarDust4Ever, it's nice to draw a big fat boundary between the Hucard system and the CD system. I think that anybody who expects this to be like a console and not like a bloody PC, whether they came from a Sega-oriented background or not, would find it odd and confusing to think of all this different crap as one thing.