Author Topic: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...  (Read 5997 times)

StarDust4Ever

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #90 on: June 15, 2016, 02:06:50 PM »
Mostly, I don't think about this at all. The only reason why I'm giving my two cents now is because I believe that if you're going to lay out the history for future generations and newcomers like StarDust4Ever, it's nice to draw a big fat boundary between the Hucard system and the CD system. I think that anybody who expects this to be like a console and not like a bloody PC, whether they came from a Sega-oriented background or not, would find it odd and confusing to think of all this different crap as one thing.
:clap:

BTW my background is more Nintendo as I have every console just about, but I had plenty of friends bitd with Sega systems. I started retrogaming with NES in 2002 and expanded from there. I didn't really branch out from there until I got a Genesis in 2011 and Atari in 2012.

I honestly didn't even know what a "Turbografx" was until Nintendo announced it for Virtual Console on the Wii in 2006. I had so much fun playing the TG-16 VC titles that I really missed them so in 2014 I shopped around and bought a Turbografx on eBay.

Still wish I could play Star Parodier again though without jumping through hoops to boot into the Wii menu on my Wii-U. I only ever bought Star Parodier and Cho Aniki from the CD library on my Wii due to the extra storage requirements of the compressed audio. Star Parodier was hella fun; Cho Aniki not so much. They should never make a SHMUP with a player ship that big. Nearly impossible to dodge shots with all that humongous man junk in the way... :-k
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 02:49:15 PM by StarDust4Ever »

elmer

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #91 on: June 15, 2016, 03:51:06 PM »
The real "difference" comes when I'm deciding between a Ford, a Chevy, or a Toyota.

Surely you are looking at different lines of vehicles from those manufactures, right? A Camry vs. a Carolla, that kind of thing.

Nope, absolutely not. That's your line-of-thinking, not mine.

To me, the camra vs corolla choice is one of basic capability within the same manufacturer's line.

Like a Sega Master vs a Sega Genesis.

Or a PC Engine vs a SuperGrafx.

The CD-ROM2 & Super CD-ROM  systems were add-ons to the basic package, not machines in their own right.

You can't play a PCE CD game with just a CD-ROM2 ... you need an original PCE/SuperGrafx to plug into it.

Your "big" choice is which manufacturer do you want to trust with your money ... Ford, Chevy, Toyota ... or maybe Nintendo, Sega or NEC.

Yes, the CD-ROM2 and IFU were horribly expensive when they came out.

The still doesn't make them separate machines.

That's just because CD-ROM technology was horrendously expensive back then.

The CD-ROM2 was actually the cheapest CD-ROM player that you could buy back then ... and "yes", it's a SCSI CD-ROM, so you can plug it into a PC. I posted the advert for NEC selling that before.

That's the point ... you've got to look at the actual history at the time in order to really understand what was going on back then.

It's fine to sit here 30 years later and say ...

The only reason why I'm giving my two cents now is because I believe that if you're going to lay out the history for future generations and newcomers like StarDust4Ever, it's nice to draw a big fat boundary between the Hucard system and the CD system. I think that anybody who expects this to be like a console and not like a bloody PC, whether they came from a Sega-oriented background or not, would find it odd and confusing to think of all this different crap as one thing.

... but by doing so, you're missing the real story and history, and over-simplifying things just to avoid confusing folks who don't want to be bothered to actually think or learn.

Any comparision to a PC is 100% applicable.

Just look at who made manufactured this console, and their previous history.

They're a PC company! This was their first "game console". They didn't necessarily understand what people expected from a "game console".

And why should they?

You're talking about few years after the great videogame crash, and the subsequent totally-unexpected success and rise of Nintendo into becoming a household name.

NEC had sold lots of PC-88 series of machines. Why is it so hard to believe that someone could believe that there might be a market for an "expandable" console?

You don't have to look far to see the PC Engine Modem and Keyboard ... and the Mouse actually shipped!

Just because Nintendo and Sega only wanted to make "games" machines, doesn't mean that that's how NEC originally saw the opportunity for the PC Engine.

Even if we ignore all the interviews that tell us that NEC/Hudson designed the PCE to be a CD-ROM machine from the start ... just look at the physical evidence, and how NEC's "cheap" CD-ROM unit fits into exactly the same depth as the PC Engine in an IFU.

They were designed together! It shows!

Now ... compare that to the Mega-CD.

It's a f**king mess ... both as a physical piece of hardware sitting underneath the original MegaDrive, and as a technical design.

The Sega CD is a totally separate processing unit that disables the Genesis CPU and DMAs the screen directly to the Genesis VDP for display. It's the 1990's equivalent of OnPlay or Twitch.

From a technical POV, I couldn't decide to laugh or cry when I first saw the developer docs for the silly thing back when it came out.

In comparison, the CD-ROM2 works with the existing PCE, and doesn't replace or shut-off anything.

SamIAm

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #92 on: June 15, 2016, 05:56:18 PM »
To me, the camra vs corolla choice is one of basic capability within the same manufacturer's line.

Like a Sega Master vs a Sega Genesis.

???

Do these two not qualify as different consoles, then?

If they don't to you, that's fine, but in that case I think our sense of what the word "console" means is so different that we won't get much out of debating much further.

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Your "big" choice is which manufacturer do you want to trust with your money ... Ford, Chevy, Toyota ... or maybe Nintendo, Sega or NEC.

I have a very hard time believing that you're not giving any consideration to which of each company's multiple product lines is best for you.

By this logic, there are no Nintendo consoles. There is only "the" Nintendo console, and it is in a constant state of evolution.

Have I misunderstood you?

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The CD-ROM2 & Super CD-ROM  systems were add-ons to the basic package, not machines in their own right.

You can't play a PCE CD game with just a CD-ROM2 ... you need an original PCE/SuperGrafx to plug into it.

I very much support thinking of the PCE-CD hardware as an expansion of the Hucard system. I'd say the same for the Mega CD.

This whole thread started because of confusion over the games more than the systems. Are PCE-CD games PCE games? Are Mega CD games Mega Drive games?

There are good reasons to say yes and no to both. Any acknowledgement of the "no" side will virtually always be on the grounds that the hardware has essentially become something else.

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The Sega CD is a totally separate processing unit that disables the Genesis CPU and DMAs the screen directly to the Genesis VDP for display. It's the 1990's equivalent of OnPlay or Twitch.

From a technical POV, I couldn't decide to laugh or cry when I first saw the developer docs for the silly thing back when it came out.

In comparison, the CD-ROM2 works with the existing PCE, and doesn't replace or shut-off anything.

That's fascinating and all, but I would suggest thinking back to the Japanese guy in 1992 choosing between a Super CD and Mega CD.

I don't believe his choices are really that profoundly different from his perspective as a consumer and gamer.

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... but by doing so, you're missing the real story and history, and over-simplifying things just to avoid confusing folks who don't want to be bothered to actually think or learn.

Any comparision to a PC is 100% applicable.

Just look at who made manufactured this console, and their previous history.

They're a PC company! This was their first "game console". They didn't necessarily understand what people expected from a "game console".

Is the PCE a game console? No, seriously, is it a game console?

If you want to say it exists as its own weird PC-hybrid thing, then that's fine. You listed lots of good reasons to do so.

But if it is a game console, then I see nothing unfair about breaking it down on the same terms as other consoles.

One of the core ideas of a console as I see it, and as I think the layman sees it, is that if you have it, you should be able to play all of the games for it. Uniformity and standardization are key. In other words, if someone has a PC Engine but cannot play a PC Engine game, then it's actually not a PC Engine game, or he doesn't actually have a PC Engine.

Obviously, with things like the N64 RAM expansion, it's not such a black-and-white world. However, if we seek to answer the question "What is the PC Engine?" and we start with "It's a game console." then we are setting people up to have certain expectations.

Defying those expectations is not a bad thing, but does it have to start with teasing people with a slice of cake on the other side of a glass wall and letting them bang their heads into it and then we say "Oh, you didn't know?"

That doesn't seem like a good way to start a lesson to me. Is it the best choice we have to teach PCE history?

...I guess it could be.

But I don't like it, and when people ask me to talk about the PCE library/libraries, one of the first things I'm going to do is say that there are Hucard games and there are CD games. To me, anyway, this division is one of the defining characteristics of the PCE.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 06:09:40 PM by SamIAm »

Bonknuts

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #93 on: June 15, 2016, 06:45:40 PM »
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But if it is a game console, then I see nothing unfair about breaking it down on the same terms as other consoles.

And therein lies the problem. It's not about fair or unfair, it's about your, and others unfamiliar with PCE history, inability to reconcile that not everything needs to neatly fit into some universal category. Things in life are rarely that simple, and when you do force these things - you omit important details that otherwise describe these things/situations/categories/etc.

 If a person is coming from the outside, into the PCE scene and wants to be part of it, understand it, then they need to take the time to understand the history and perception of the consoles as it was, is, and perceived. Not forced into some contrite defines so that they can easily make purchasing decision. That responsibility solely falls on them, to learn about it, and become informed. I mean, that's true of ANYthing you decide to put your money and time into. Making.. no changing(!) definitions just to suite outside company and potential increase based? No. Just, no.

 This attempt to redefine the PCE, strips of its history, and of its origin, and of its story. These are PC Engine games; hucards or CDs. From a hardware level, to capable level, to a consumer level. If Amercian importanting Japanese games BITD, without internet, can figure this stuff out - Japanese game consumers easily had a bigger advantage at their hands. I don't buy this whole confused Japanese gamer audience thing. NEC clearly made their choice of which format was dominant with the release of the Duo in 1991, going forward. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand. And I don't understand why this artificial division in the library along hucard and CD games needs to exist to please history revisionists and other centric retro gaming views.

 As far as people new retro gamers coming to the PCE scene and trying to figure stuff out - they get the "buy a Duo" advance.. and what did they almost always do? Buy the hucard only systems because the Duos are too "expensive". Then complain about their upgrade options, followed by a defensive claim that CDs are a different "platform". Why? Because they bring their Sega/Nintendo centric views into the picture and think they know better or whatever. If you don't want to buy Duo on top of that TG16 or PCE that you bought, then fine. Don't enjoy the rest of the majority of PCE awesome titles. Limit yourself to hucards and division addon mentality. While you at it, slap a SegaCD sticker on your CD setup if you do eventually get one. I'm sure it'll make you feel right as rain.

SignOfZeta

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #94 on: June 15, 2016, 06:54:55 PM »
Nobody questions the significant practical differences between the formats, but that doesn't make for different systems. The format alone doesn't mean f*ck. If I write a song about how future generations will be so paralyzed by masturbatory OCD bullshit that they'll need adult diapers and put an MP3 of it on a thumb drive and hand it to you then you have an MP3. If you copy that f*cker and send it in an email you have an MP3. If the guy that gets that email makes a Torrent for it then thousands of people will have the MP3. If one of them backs up their HD with a portable HD then the MP3 will be one two machines. If someone backs up the backup onto DVDs...that's another MP3. It's ALL f*ckIN MP3s though, understand?

Now if anyone burns that song onto a standard CD-R in audio CD format...then you have another system. Even if the audio program is identical it's now in CDDA format which is totally different. If I sent you a multitrack wave format unmixed version of the song, that's totally different. If you zip it, it's different. If you remix it and add a verse about people who are only 42 acting like they were in The Great War and save that shit in Real Player format, that's different.

BUT!

Your computer can play ALL THAT SHIT.

Your computer is the Duo. The song about how crazy you are is the game. The MP3 is the HuCARD. The CD is...a CD.

This thread sucks.

elmer

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #95 on: June 15, 2016, 07:15:48 PM »
Ah ... a good argument ... excellent!  :lol:




???

Do these two not qualify as different consoles, then?

Nope ... of course they do.

As do the Corolla vs Camry, or in the case of my argument, the Toyota Tacoma vs Toyota Tundra (1/2 ton truck vs 3/4 ton truck).

You choose your basic "capability" (i.e. console generation), but yet you still have "options" within that "capability" (i.e. console generation) that effect what you can haul (i.e. play).

I'm sorry if that was a unclear to those many (most) folks that haven't actually either owned a truck, or had to figure out how to make the darned thing pull a small mobile home (caravan to Brits) behind it.


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I have a very hard time believing that you're not giving any consideration to which of each company's multiple product lines is best for you.

Nope, I am ... which is why I consider the CD-ROM2/Super CDROM as part of the same product line as the PC Engine.


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Have I misunderstood you?

We may be getting caught up on semantics!  :wink:


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I very much support thinking of the PCE-CD hardware as an expansion of the Hucard system. I'd say the same for the Mega CD.

This whole thread started because of confusion over the games more than the systems. Are PCE-CD games PCE games? Are Mega CD games Mega Drive games?

1) Definitely "yes".

2) "yes" ... but only because Sega really, really, really, wanted sell the Mega-CD as an add-on and not as a different console (which it 90% was), and so crippled it by making it output its video through the regular Genesis output, requiring all the DMA nonsense.

They didn't even bother with that silly sham when it came to the 32x.  :roll:


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That's fascinating and all, but I would suggest thinking back to the Japanese guy in 1992 choosing between a Super CD and Mega CD.

I don't believe his choices are really that profoundly different from his perspective as a consumer and gamer.

You're right ... that's the difference between "reality" and "marketing", which is why the marketing folks get paid so well for selling their souls!  :wink:

I'm more interested in the technical truth and the thinking and reasons behind it than I am in how the end-product is positioned to the "great-unwashed" in order to get them to buy it.

If you want to count all games with "Blast Processing" as a separate "collectable" category just because the adverts told you that Sonic was something "special", then go for it.

I'd prefer to look at it all from an "academic" or "industry" perspective, rather than an "advertising" perspective.


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Is the PCE a game console? No, seriously, is it a game console?

If you want to say it exists as its own weird PC-hybrid thing, then that's fine. You listed lots of good reasons to do so.

But if it is a game console, then I see nothing unfair about breaking it down on the same terms as other consoles.

Yes, it is a "game console", at least in my experience and in hindsight.

But do you know what that meant exactly to NEC's executives "at the time"?

They certainly didn't market it or really treat it like Nintendo or Sega did.

They had very different relationships with developers ... much more like a home computer manufacturer.

They let Hudson take a huge portion of the royalties, almost as though they were just licensing the technology (a bit like 3DO later on).

There's a deeper story here, and I don't think that it's been fully told, yet.

Whatever it is ... the relationship between Hudson and NEC is totally different to how Nintendo and Sega behaved at the time, and trying to look back on the history of the PCE in the same terms as the NES/SNES/Master/MegaDrive is an oversimplification that doesn't do justice to just how revolutionary the PCE was at the time that it came out, or its place in history as the very first CD-ROM game console.


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One of the core ideas of a console as I see it, and as I think the layman sees it, is that if you have it, you should be able to play all of the games for it. Uniformity and standardization are key. In other words, if someone has a PC Engine but cannot play a PC Engine game, then it's actually not a PC Engine game, or he doesn't actually have a PC Engine.

That "idea" doesn't work, even for all the Nintendo machines.

You're fine for the NES and SNES, which bumped up the cost of every cartridge by putting special chips on board, but you've got the RAM expansion requirement for the N64, and then you've got the MegaCD, 32x, SATURN RAM, etc requirements for Sega.

There's a long history of requiring "add-ons" to be purchased in order to play certain console games, from those early RAM add-ons, to light-sensor guns, to mice, to Nintendo's Wii-Plus controller, or Sony's Move, or Microsoft's Kinect.

Now we're just about to enter the era of the PlayStation VR.


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That doesn't seem like a good way to start a lesson to me. Is it the best choice we have to teach PCE history?

...I guess it could be.

"The truth is complex" beats the heck out of "Here's an artificial arbitrary line" IMHO.


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But I don't like it, and when people ask me to talk about the PCE library/libraries, one of the first things I'm going to do is say that there are Hucard games and there are CD games. To me, anyway, this division is one of the defining characteristics of the PCE.

It's one of the simplest ways of describing things to folks at a party that have little knowledge, and uncertain interest, in the subject.

But by the time that someone has bothered to come to this forum and actually spend their money to buy a machine ... then I hope that we can help them enter a "bigger" world where shades-of-grey exist, and everything is much less simple, and much, much more interesting!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 07:22:07 PM by elmer »

SamIAm

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #96 on: June 15, 2016, 08:45:00 PM »
I should have let my last post bake a little longer. I don't want to cover up or obscure the history of the PCE for the sake of making life easier.

Basically, I still think that PCE-CD game = PCE game as an unquestionable truth is dubious.

When it comes to any system, game hardware or otherwise, an addition or modification that comes at such an extreme cost and makes such an extreme difference in the system's capabilities could arguably be said to make it a different system altogether.

That was the point of my take on your car analogy.

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I'm more interested in the technical truth and the thinking and reasons behind it than I am in how the end-product is positioned to the "great-unwashed" in order to get them to buy it..

I don't see that as the current juxtaposition, though.

To me, regardless of how they conceived it, how they built it, or how they advertised it, the way that the end user experienced it is a really big deal.

I didn't have one of these back in the day, so maybe I should just shut up, but I am incredibly skeptical that people who bought the CD system assumed that they were merely getting Hucard games on a hi-fi format. I suspect they thought they were getting something more. You know, like Dragon Quest x1000.

Maybe that changed after the Hucard went down in flames and the CD system was the only thing left. Which, by the way, it seems like many old-timers were unaware of being precisely what happened in Japan until recently.

Anyway, I think gamers did get something more with games like Ys 1&2. Put that on a 4mb Hucard (heck, put it on two of 'em), and I guarantee nobody would care about it like they do now. It would just be another (good) game. The same goes for a lot of CD games.

This is why I remain unconvinced by MP3 and movie analogies. Take it off the CD, and it's not the same game. At worst, it will simply not be possible.

-----------------------------------------

EDIT: Ah, screw it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:04:33 AM by SamIAm »

StarDust4Ever

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2016, 09:05:46 PM »
Fact still remains there are a lot more working Hucard only systems floating about than working CD-ROMs so not everyone who wants one can have without paying a premium. Law of supply and demand. Some gamers will have to settle without the CDROMs. I unfortunately am one of them. :-({|=

deubeul

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #98 on: June 15, 2016, 10:19:11 PM »
I learned something today.

When I play Gate Of Thunder, I'm not playing on PC Engine.

OK...

SamIAm

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #99 on: June 15, 2016, 10:44:24 PM »
I'm just saying I think there's an argument to be made...just one valid argument among many fine counter-arguments...that you're playing on PC Engine CD.

Or Super CD-ROM2, or whatever.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 10:51:53 PM by SamIAm »

deubeul

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #100 on: June 15, 2016, 11:08:07 PM »
...So that's still PC Engine.

I get your points, SAM, even if I don't totally agree.

But stardust entering the scene and claiming that the way I and most of other old timers perceive the PCE library is wrong, with his BS excessively too long arguments, starts to upset me a little.


StarDust4Ever

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #101 on: June 15, 2016, 11:32:34 PM »
...So that's still PC Engine.

I get your points, SAM, even if I don't totally agree.

But stardust entering the scene and claiming that the way I and most of other old timers perceive the PCE library is wrong, with his BS excessively too long arguments, starts to upset me a little.
You know, I thought about that. But no matter how hard I try to cram it, that CDR simply won't fit into the Hucard slot! I should really shut up now... :-#

SamIAm

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2016, 11:42:23 PM »
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I get your points, SAM, even if I don't totally agree.

Thanks.   :)

StarDust4Ever seems like a typical noob. I don't think he means any harm or disrespect. If he hangs around a little longer and keeps enjoying his games, I'm sure he'll be an asset to the community, and also realize that we like to keep things a little more succinct.

Like I'm one to talk.  :mrgreen:

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EDIT: Screw it, we're all tired, and I think we've all said our pieces.
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We may be getting caught up on semantics!  :wink:

That's what this whole dumb argument amounts to, probably, but it's always fun to try and express one's ideas and interpretations.  O:)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:08:07 AM by SamIAm »

deubeul

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #103 on: June 16, 2016, 12:07:35 AM »
...So that's still PC Engine.

I get your points, SAM, even if I don't totally agree.

But stardust entering the scene and claiming that the way I and most of other old timers perceive the PCE library is wrong, with his BS excessively too long arguments, starts to upset me a little.
You know, I thought about that. But no matter how hard I try to cram it, that CDR simply won't fit into the Hucard slot! I should really shut up now... :-#

I understand, man, that won't fit.

You came here, exposed your point, and asked us our.

We answered.

We respect your noob point of you.

Please respect our 20years old PCE lovers' point of view too.


esteban

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Re: Hucard / SuperCD are NOT the same system...
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2016, 02:47:37 AM »
Is a HuCARD a card or a cartridge?

Discuss.

 
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