Author Topic: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??  (Read 1642 times)

Dicer

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Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« on: June 20, 2016, 10:20:29 AM »
Ah the Demoscene, making hardware do all sorts of neat stuff, the peak for me were the C64 and Amiga Demoscene, which used a lot of the same trickery to achieve some mind blowing visuals for the machines they were running on.

How possible would it be to pull some of this visual trickery on the good ole PCE, I know there are a few examples, but I think it could go further.

Best Amiga Examples.

Hell even some Atari 2600 Demo action


Arkhan

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2016, 02:19:04 PM »
Some of those 3D effects, and the FMV like stuff is possible.   It's just out of place on PCE.   

Chris Covell has done some similarish stuff.


SOME of the scaling/rotation stuff would be a bit of a pain in the ass.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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ccovell

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2016, 02:29:03 PM »


Cool effects can be done, but things like filled polygons & rotation... the PCE cannot do very well.  A lot of the transparency, cut-out, stretching effects that the Amiga pulled off by shifting around bitplanes & playing with the scroll registers can be done on the PCE with few problems.

Bonknuts

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2016, 05:12:10 PM »
Demos pretty much boil down to how can you exploit as system (cpu registers, hardware, how it all interfaces, amount of ram). Demos tend to build or decompress items into ram as well (setup prescaled frames during runtime VS stored format) - the PCE doesn't do so well in that area if it's a hucard platform (8k of ram). Special effects can be done on the PCE, exploiting the planar format, but you need fast bandwidth and that usually means storing graphics in ST1/ST2 embedded opcodes (bloating its size). Planar sucks for fine pixel placement, so you need 8 offsets of images (couple that with embedded bloat). Some really interesting things can be done on the PCE, but it's starving for ram for these kinds of things.

 The PCE hardware is also pretty straight forward, so not a whole lot of "unique" things can be done with it. You basically have to really think outside the box and come up with your own new effects. Watching other demos helps gives ideas, but prepared to write some really crazy code (complex, convoluted, etc).

 There are a handful of hardware tricks you can do on the PCE that emulators don't handle. They aren't super fantastic, but the trick is finding something that exploits them. I haven't tested it, but I have a theory about how to gen lock the cpu to the video display inside an hsync interrupt (which could be useful for a couple of effects). There's the undocumented VDC regs 3 and 4, which use the VRAM read register to do weird things (it's a bitmap of the 16bit map that sets thing on/off on the VDC). Half height sprite mode (which can be changed per scanline to do vertical warping stuff on the sprite layer). 128x128x16color byte bitmap mode (with free transfer/erase via vram dma). Or a 64x128x256color byte bitmap mode (128x128x256color for SGX). The bitmap modes can be horizontal or vertical sequential - allowing for a fast raycaster engine. Using the VCE to do stretch pixel interference on screen (in whatever patterns). Stuff like that.

 I started doing some demo effects and saving them individually, but never got around to putting it into a fancy demo. Presentation is everything, and while I can code and make crazy effects... making/designing great looking demos isn't my thing.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 05:16:28 PM by Bonknuts »

touko

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2016, 04:17:21 AM »
Mooz did some nice 3D effects on PCE .


http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62012

And also nice chiptunes by octapus ..
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 04:19:17 AM by touko »

Bonknuts

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2016, 11:00:41 AM »
So.. when are we making a demo?

crazydean

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2016, 01:39:15 PM »
I'm a bit confused by all this. I'm not very familiar with the Commodore or Amiga, but the 2600 demo just seems unbelievable. I haven't seen any 2600 game that looks remotely close to anything that was on the demo, not to mention the music. So, why is that? Why were there no games that looked or sounded that good?
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Sadler

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2016, 02:39:14 PM »
That's the point :D Adventures of Batman & Robin is close.

Edit: on the Genesis, which I guess doesn't have much to do with the topic.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 02:43:11 PM by Sadler »

Dicer

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2016, 05:27:18 PM »
I'm a bit confused by all this. I'm not very familiar with the Commodore or Amiga, but the 2600 demo just seems unbelievable. I haven't seen any 2600 game that looks remotely close to anything that was on the demo, not to mention the music. So, why is that? Why were there no games that looked or sounded that good?


Demoscene basically "codes to the metal" pushing the very limits of the machine, and even somehow breaking them...they can do this because they aren't programming in logic or hit detection or anything a game needs. It's always been fascinating to see how far they can go, PC demos aren't as interesting unless they are the size restricted ones (ala 4k 64k comps) because what they accomplish in a space smaller than a blank word document is utterly amazing sometimes.

4kilobytes, insanity....


Arkhan

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 09:57:20 PM »
The one thing I could never stand about demos is when they put dumb scrolling text as effects are occurring.


They always read like some announcer/commentator at a dog show or gymnastics event.

Always kinda killed it for me.

COSINE made some really cool C64 demos. 

They always had awesome tunes.

... but still had dumb text, lol





and this reminds me of one of the only trackers I ever enjoyed:



EMS 7. 

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Black Tiger

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2016, 12:30:53 AM »
I'm a bit confused by all this. I'm not very familiar with the Commodore or Amiga, but the 2600 demo just seems unbelievable. I haven't seen any 2600 game that looks remotely close to anything that was on the demo, not to mention the music. So, why is that? Why were there no games that looked or sounded that good?

Although special effect techniques are much more commonly known and shared today, the main reason is rom size.

There are homebrew games like that and the 2600 even has Super Mario Bros now.
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touko

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2016, 02:31:01 AM »
So.. when are we making a demo?
PCE or SGX ??
Some ass to kick in the titan team ??  :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 02:32:34 AM by touko »

Bonknuts

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2016, 05:32:18 PM »
Meh.. I don't care about rivalry or competition. I just wanna make great stuff on the PCE. That said, the Titan demo was OK. Genesis fans loved it, so I guess that's what counts. Kinda expected quite a bit more for such a popular platform though.

touko

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2016, 08:07:17 PM »
Meh.. I don't care about rivalry or competition.
It was a joke  :wink:,just for fun,not for starting a demo war .

Quote
That said, the Titan demo was OK. Genesis fans loved it, so I guess that's what counts
It's a very enjoyable demo, with good music and very good transitions,  the effects parts it's the standard parade,but well paced.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 08:15:49 PM by touko »

touko

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Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2016, 12:18:08 AM »
That's an effect you can do on SGX :