Author Topic: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??  (Read 1640 times)

Dicer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2016, 02:54:39 PM »
You just nailed about 98% of old school demoscene...

The keyword being OLD school.  If you release more than one demo with just a logo and a scrolltext, you'll get very low marks from current demosceners.

That's why I made the distinction...

A lot of the trademark "techniques" are still in play for older machines, but the way they are pushed and presented these days are a big step up.


touko

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 953
Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2016, 07:31:09 AM »
Quote
Just look at Titan demo on the Genesis/Megadrive. It's not really technically impressive IMO, but it looks great. Nice artwork, music, animation, flow, etc. And that's what matters in the end.
i agree, but it's not so easy to do some of the standard PC's demo effects like seen on C64, because you can doing some incredible mid scanlines's stuffs with timed code.

elmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2153
Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2016, 06:30:32 AM »
Bonknuts:

I just saw Stef's Genesis version of the Bad Apple demo, and saw on the forum thread that you were posting about doing a PCE version.

Was that ever finished? If not, is it still work-in-progress, or has it been abandoned?

Thread here:
http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=13622.0

Genesis Video:


Genesis Thread:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?19027-Bad-Apple-demo-thread&p=527917&viewfull=1#post527917

Another Genesis thread with interesting compression ideas:
http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1489

Dicer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2016, 07:28:07 AM »
Bonknuts:

I just saw Stef's Genesis version of the Bad Apple demo, and saw on the forum thread that you were posting about doing a PCE version.

Was that ever finished? If not, is it still work-in-progress, or has it been abandoned?

Thread here:
http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=13622.0

Genesis Video:


Genesis Thread:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?19027-Bad-Apple-demo-thread&p=527917&viewfull=1#post527917

Another Genesis thread with interesting compression ideas:
http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1489


Wait...

We don't have bad apple?

EVERYTHING has bad apple.

WE NEED BAD APPLE....

Bonknuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3292
Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2016, 08:10:12 AM »
Bonknuts:

I just saw Stef's Genesis version of the Bad Apple demo, and saw on the forum thread that you were posting about doing a PCE version.

Was that ever finished? If not, is it still work-in-progress, or has it been abandoned?

Thread here:
http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=13622.0

Genesis Video:


Genesis Thread:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?19027-Bad-Apple-demo-thread&p=527917&viewfull=1#post527917

Another Genesis thread with interesting compression ideas:
http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1489



 I didn't finish it because 2.5megs (SF2 mapper) would have been too little storage for both audio and video (compared to the other systems; Genesis and SNES). I didn't want to give the wrong impression of the PCE. The video compression I was working on, was turning out quite well though.

 Maybe we could re-visit this idea since the new TED allows up to 4megs. The PCE can do 8-10khz software decoding of ADPCM pretty easily (I modified Sarsie's source code); it could be even faster if the PC side encoder handled over flow instead of the PCE playback driver handling it via saturation.


elmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2153
Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2016, 08:31:26 AM »
I didn't finish it because 2.5megs (SF2 mapper) would have been too little storage for both audio and video (compared to the other systems; Genesis and SNES). I didn't want to give the wrong impression of the PCE. The video compression I was working on, was turning out quite well though.

That makes sense ... IMHO there's little point in doing it if it can't look as good as, or perhaps even better than, the other 16-bit machines.


Quote
Maybe we could re-visit this idea since the new TED allows up to 4megs.

Yep, that might be enough for the video.

512x224 video would be lovely, if it could fit.  :wink:


Quote
The PCE can do 8-10khz software decoding of ADPCM pretty easily (I modified Sarsie's source code); it could be even faster if the PC side encoder handled over flow instead of the PCE playback driver handling it via saturation.

The PCE was the 1st CD-ROM console featuring full CD-AUDIO playback, way before the Genesis and the SNES even appeared.

I don't understand why you'd consider ignoring that and feature low-quality 8-10KHz ADPCM audio instead of using the platform to it's strengths.

<EDIT>

Or to put it another way ... the Genesis and the SNES both have separate audio-processing chips, so why not use the PCE's?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 08:41:33 AM by elmer »

Bonknuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3292
Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2016, 08:37:09 AM »
Quote
I don't understand why you'd consider ignoring that and feature low-quality 8-10KHz ADPCM audio instead of using the platform to it's strengths.

 Because the running mentality was/is that it needs to be all cart/core system to be valid. If I had used the CD platform, it wouldn't have been considered "impressive". The same reason a SegaCD version wouldn't have been that impressive (general consensus). 8-10khz was to keep the compressed audio small enough to fit into 4 megabytes, and to keep the cpu resource down in case the video decompression scheme really worked the cpu resource.

 There's this mentality that "oh, a CD system is just streaming video/audio.. no big deal". Well, technically, the cart is just doing the same. But the cart has storage constraints, so I guess that makes it more impressive.

 So it was more of a "play by their rules" sort of game. That, and being a cart/hucard platform - you have a wider range of PCE fans who can run the demo.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 08:42:11 AM by Bonknuts »

elmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2153
Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2016, 09:04:18 AM »
Because the running mentality was/is that it needs to be all cart/core system to be valid. If I had used the CD platform, it wouldn't have been considered "impressive". The same reason a SegaCD version wouldn't have been that impressive (general consensus).

That's just BS!

For a start, the PCE DUO is a "core" system (at least in my book), and the original PCE system was always designed to have a CD-ROM (as has been discussed-to-death in other threads here).

The Sega CD was an afterthought, and anyway, it's so crippled by the VRAM transfer bandwidth from the 2nd CPU that it's not like you get great video out of it as a CD streaming-platform anyway, and there's no super-fast connection to the ROM (IIRC) for it to read everything from there.


Quote
There's this mentality that "oh, a CD system is just streaming video/audio.. no big deal". Well, technically, the cart is just doing the same. But the cart has storage constraints, so I guess that makes it more impressive.

Exactly ... and a cartridge has an exponentially higher bandwidth than a CD, so you're just trading one limit for another.

As a programmer, you already know these things.

You also know (I assume), the huge differences between the primitive 4th-generation console CD-ROM hardware, and the 5th-generation console CD-ROM hardware (with video-streaming designed in from the start).

If you limit yourself to the pre-conceptions of idiots, then you just sink to their level instead of showing them that there is a bigger world out there.


Quote
That, and being a cart/hucard platform - you have a wider range of PCE fans who can run the demo.

I get the desire for an audience ... but then why not limit yourself to the standard 1MB ROM configuration and play to all of the PCE's weaknesses?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 09:09:31 AM by elmer »

Dicer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
Re: Demoscene, how much of this f*ckery could the PCE do??
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2016, 10:31:29 AM »
The 2600 has bad apple the TI calc has it as well, I say cram it into a  tight of a space as possible, if you are going over the "usual" space then it's kind of defeating the purpose of putting on the hardware IMHO, do the best with the space that would be allotted, just my .02 on the matter.