Author Topic: CRT longevity question  (Read 1241 times)

SamIAm

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2016, 04:19:34 PM »
You guys are lucky. In Japan, consumer 4:3 CRT sets almost never exceeded 29 inches.

The next time I visit, I might see if anything is available on CL and just stick it in my parents' basement for storage. Who knows? I might move back someday.

crazydean

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2016, 04:30:03 PM »
If I were to hoard, I'd buy an extra PVM. The BVMs are pretty expensive these days, but you can still pick up PVMs pretty cheap. Also, they stack easily, so you could fit 10 or so in a closet!
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Gypsy

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2016, 05:02:56 PM »
You guys are lucky. In Japan, consumer 4:3 CRT sets almost never exceeded 29 inches.

The next time I visit, I might see if anything is available on CL and just stick it in my parents' basement for storage. Who knows? I might move back someday.

Yeah I mean, I'm not even in a great area for electronics (rural for starters) and there is still no shortage of solid CRTs so if you would be visiting any major city I have to imagine it would even easier.

Also the size thing is a double edged sword. Nice if you want it, but it sucks that mostly ermagerd hueg hdtvs get the best features. At least, that's how it was when I was last buying and looking into my options. I had to order online just to get something resembling decent in the range I wanted (ended up going 24 inches which is about as big as I could go for where I was placing that tv). I should honestly just replace it with a high end monitor at this point since I never watch tv on it (not even hooked up to anything for tv).
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 05:06:59 PM by Gypsy »

SamIAm

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2016, 10:07:22 PM »
I have three Wegas, plus a probably-dead BVM (long story).

My BVM is not dead! Hallelujah!

Like I was saying, it's a long story, but I basically had to swap some large and leaky old capacitors and deal with corrosion damage, and it didn't go well at first. Smoke was involved.

Anyway, I finally got to try a BVM in RGB last night, and it was very interesting.

When it comes to getting a really good CRT for retro gaming, there seem to be two major choices: a higher-end consumer model from the early 2000s, or a professional monitor from the 90s. Who here has tried both? How do you think they compare?

I'll post my own thoughts later, but first, I need to experiment a bit more.  :mrgreen:

ClodBuster

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2016, 12:17:17 AM »
I haven't tried both, but what I think is that consumer CRT TVs have issues with geometry. Depending on the brightness level of each line, the picture size increases or shrinks down. This isn't such a problem when watching TV or movies, but more obvious when dealing with text boxes and menu bars in videogames. Especially low end TVs were heavily affected by that, although I saw some more expensive TVs having similar, but less pronounced issues.

I had once had a 17" Hewlett-Packard 7560 CRT screen for my computer. It had none of the geometry issues. But a great picture quality with deep colors and sharp lines in all resolutions up to 1024x768 and 100 Hz. I'm really sorry I had to let that one go when moving.
This one ->
I wish there had been CRT TVs with a comparable picture quality.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 12:18:58 AM by ClodBuster »

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SignOfZeta

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2016, 10:54:48 AM »
For SD gaming the PVM is what you want. Consumer TVs are designed to play movies but virtually none of that shit matters when you are dealing with 240p RGB or even 480i Y/C. Mostly it just gets in the way.

SamIAm

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2016, 04:10:14 PM »
I managed to get in a little testing time this morning, switching back and forth rapidly between a BVM and an HD-Wega in RGB using multiple consoles. Here are a few observations:

-- While every consumer-level SD set I have ever seen, including a nice one from 2004 with an RGB input, had serious convergence and geometry problems, HD-CRTs are basically just as good at these two things as BVMs. Neither is perfect. The BVM is slightly better at convergence in the corners, but you practically need a magnifying glass to see it.

-- The biggest advantage that the BVM has is the pretty shape of its pixels. On an HD set, pixels look blocky and harsh, and probably because of how they are scaled, their sizes are not perfectly consistent. Dark outlines and single-pixel eyeball dots stand out more than they should, and similar colors that are supposed to blend, like in wood grain, don't do that as nicely. BVM pixels, on the other hand, are still neatly contained little units that don't look blocky, and they generally feel softer and better balanced with each other.

The checkerboard pattern from the 240p test suite looks undeniably better on the BVM even though the pixels aren't quite as square. It's simply more consistent. Also, note that every consumer SD set I've given this to displays it so poorly, you wonder if the TV is broken.

-- Color, on the other hand, I'm going to say the HD-CRT wins by a hair. I know that sounds crazy, because the primary purpose of BVMs in the first place was color mastering, but that's just it: the BVM looks a bit sterile. Even if it's not quite as accurate to what the digital color values say it should be, I like being able to turn up the "warmth" a just a little on my HD set, and that option doesn't exist on pro monitors. You've only got brightness and contrast, which aren't the same.

And if you do want the same colors as a BVM, you can get quite close.

-- Here are three other minor disadvantages of a BVM that I don't think come up very often:
  1. It emits a high-pitched hum that's louder than that of a typical consumer set.
  2. The colors are only really good in a dimly lit room. When the set is off, the screen itself is a
      very light grey; if you use the BVM in a well-lit room, the light reflecting off of this will make
      the image seem a bit more washed out.
  3. The display hardware will not do as much to adapt images from different consoles to fit the
      screen.  You either have to live with imperfect fitting, or you have to re-calibrate every time
      you change systems. Consumer sets have this problem, too, but it's significantly more
      pronounced on the BVM.

-- Input lag is the same. I did a proper test with a camera as well as the manual method (see these) and they were both excellent.

-- Finally, I have another HD-CRT made by Toshiba, and it does strange things with a 240p signal. The Wega does it, too, but only on certain settings. I'm not completely sure, but I think it's converting it to 1080i. It's not as messy a conversion as what LCD TVs do, and I don't think any lines are actually lost, but I do think they are being interlaced on an HD level. This causes a slight blurriness during scrolling. It's definitely something to avoid if you're looking for a good HD set.


So, which one will I actually wind up using? It's a tough call. I'm going to spend a while with the BVM and see if the nice pixel shape is really worth the loss of size (20" vs. 29") and whether I get used to un-warmed colors.

Your gaming-room setup is really important to the set you choose. If you want to be able to sit on a couch far away from the screen, next to friends and with lights on, the larger and darker screens of consumer sets are truly nice. However, if you can put a TV at desk-height and sit near it in a chair with low lighting, the BVM is probably the objectively better choice.

Perhaps a 29" PVM maintains the quality of a 20" BVM and is the all-around best solution. If they weren't so expensive in Japan, I might try to get one.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 11:37:39 AM by SamIAm »

SignOfZeta

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2016, 04:44:22 PM »
Yeah, pro monitors are meant to be used in rooms with controlled consistent lighting. It would make sense that they are more susceptible to ambient lighting.

In the CRT days lighting was a big deal in home theater. It still is now but it's less of an issue with 80" panels that are so bright they almost burn the paint off the walls. With virtually any CRT you will get a better picture if you calibrate for near darkness and use lower brightness settings, and of course watch it that way. My HD CRT looks amazing playing LDs in low light,  but when the sun shines it's remarkable how bright it isn't compared to my LCDs. I kinda only like watching LDs at night because of this...

crazydean

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2016, 06:11:11 PM »
Well, Samiam, nice write-up. I have noticed some serious problems with my BVM during the day. I really need to get some blackout curtains. What model do you have?
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SamIAm

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2016, 06:27:03 PM »
It's a 2015S, which I think is a Japan-only model.

It was made in 1992. Apparently, Sony used to replace the picture tube every 30,000 hours of use as part of a scheduled maintenance cycle, and you can see if this has been done by looking at whether the yoke is stuck on with an epoxy that you don't see anywhere else, and whether there are any purity strips on the tube. Happily, mine looks like it was replaced at least once, so it probably doesn't have that many hours on it.  :mrgreen:

crazydean

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2016, 06:47:08 PM »
Is there a way to guess its age by looking at the picture? What does it look like with an old tube?
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SamIAm

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2016, 07:13:06 PM »
Newer BVMs have an on-time hour-counter somewhere in the menus. For older ones, the top metal panel should be very easy to remove, and under that should be everything you need to see. Mine has the month/year of manufacture printed on a sticker, and a small watch-like LCD timer with a battery. In my case, however, the battery is either dead, or the LCD won't display while the TV is off. I haven't tried turning it on with the cover removed.

The more hours a tube racks up, the dimmer it gets. I actually had the chance to try two used SD TVs that were the exact same model side by side, and it was clear as day which one had seen more use.

If dialing up the controls to make the picture as vivid as possible results in nothing but an ever-more washed out and weirdly unbalanced image, it's probably not a good sign.

I haven't heard of too many people encountering used-up BVMs, though. They originally sold for $10,000; if Sony offered replacement tubes for a reasonable fee, I imagine people would take them up on that offer more often then not.

The guy I heard this from said they only replaced the tubes up to three times, but that's still enough to cover a lot of years. One year is 8760 hours, after all.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 07:14:57 PM by SamIAm »

crazydean

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2016, 08:43:30 PM »
I think mine is around 80k hours and the brightness and contrast have to be turned up more than I expected. However, as long as the sun isn't directly on the monitor, there's no problem with perceived brightness.

Thanks for your help.
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Gypsy

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2016, 01:28:20 AM »
Relevant: http://kansascity.craigslist.org/ele/5792944035.html

I was browsing CL and saw this. If anyone here is near KC this might be worth picking up. Bit too far for me, especially considering how much it weighs (a metric shit ton).

csgx1

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Re: CRT longevity question
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2016, 07:47:27 AM »
Interesting comparison info, thanks for posting.

I've experienced to some degree the 3 minor BVM disadvantages that you pointed out.  My BVM also has a very noticeable high-pitch noise, but my PVM doesn't for some reason.  Which is one of the reasons why I use my PVM over BVM as my main monitor. 

As for longevity...the way I see it is that my monitors could die at any given moment since they are old and were most likely heavily used & abused in the past.  I don't think being cautions about turning my heavily used monitors off/on less is going to help prolong them from failure now.  Like others have said it's a good idea to get extras if you got the room and can find them at a reasonable price. 

Speaking of buying extra, I randomly found a small 13" PVM at a yard sale for $5 a few weeks ago. I bought it without testing it, got it home and unfortunately the screen had some really bad discoloration.  Did the electric drill degaussing trick and it got rid of most of the discoloration, but not all of it. I definitely wasn't looking for another monitor due to my space limitations, but I just couldn't pass it up for the price.