MML: What are people's actual complaints with the damn thing

[TailChao]

Of course like bonk said with a SF2 mapper and a 32/64 Mb hucard it's easily dooable,and with a good PCM driver and clean samples even at 7khz you can do an impressive PCM quality for a 8 bit system,better than MD @14/16 khz ones(with stef's driver), due to hardware .

You still have to be a little careful with ROM size since once you pass 2MB it gets more difficult to find affordable 5V components (4MB, 8MB+ NOR Flashes are increasingly uncommon). There are workarounds of course, but nothing is ever "for free."

This reminds me of the special sound chip shoved into Pitfall II on the Atari 2600. Even back then, people were doing new things to overcome the inherent limitations of the system they were working with.

It's even easier to do stuff like this nowadays. Microcontrollers are cheap, and Cypress has some that are both equipped with analog outputs and 5V tolerance.

[touko]

You still have to be a little careful with ROM size since once you pass 2MB it gets more difficult to find affordable 5V components (4MB, 8MB+ NOR Flashes are increasingly uncommon). There are workarounds of course, but nothing is ever "for free."

Ah, is not as easy as i though then .. 
Do you think that even nowadays,it's not affordable ??

[TailChao]

Ah, is not as easy as i though then .. 
Do you think that even nowadays,it's not affordable ??

I wouldn't phrase it as "not affordable" to have a huge NOR Flash, but rather it's good to be aware of what restrictions it would impose on the manufacturing end so you can consider alternatives.

Generally, once you get over 512KB - 1MB, 3.3V NOR Flash is much cheaper. Once you get over 2MB it's nearly impossible to find large quantities of 5V tolerant parts, and what you can find is usually new-old-stock. So you'd need level shifters and a regulator on the cartridge.

If you're adding a mapper, you need either a CPLD or several 74xx components.

Sometimes it's cheaper to add more RAM to the cartridge and depack data to it rather than using a larger ROM and more complex mapper. I ran into this with the game I'm working on now.

Once you get into several megabytes of data, it might be best to use a combination of NOR Flash + RAM + SPI Flash + Mapper + Level Shifters.


Basically it is good practice to think ahead for what parts are available and what are not. Sometimes the "best" option is completely different now than what you would do 25 years ago.

Edit : But again, the PCE is quite competent on its own, so there's that.

[touko]

thanks for this explanation .

Another question, do you think the Hucard format by himself, was a big limitating factor for larger ROMS than a classic one, like on MD/snes ??

[TailChao]

Another question, do you think the Hucard format by himself, was a big limitating factor for larger ROMS than a classic one, like on MD/snes ??

Honestly, no. Most HuCards are chip-on-board, which is cheaper in volume and when you have the right manufacturing setup. Using larger Mask ROMs isn't a big deal as the dies are still much smaller than the card dimensions. I mean really large volume, though. Hundreds of thousands minimum.

I think the biggest factor was the prevalence of the CD-ROM format on the platform.

Again though, I didn't work for Hudson or NEC. So I can't definitively speak for what they were or were not trying to do.

[esteban]

Another question, do you think the Hucard format by himself, was a big limitating factor for larger ROMS than a classic one, like on MD/snes ??

Honestly, no. Most HuCards are chip-on-board, which is cheaper in volume and when you have the right manufacturing setup. Using larger Mask ROMs isn't a big deal as the dies are still much smaller than the card dimensions. I mean really large volume, though. Hundreds of thousands minimum.

I think the biggest factor was the prevalence of the CD-ROM format on the platform.

Again though, I didn't work for Hudson or NEC. So I can't definitively speak for what they were or were not trying to do.

I think you are correct about the manufacturing process and its benefits.

Sure, we don't have all the info. We might never know if there were unusual, historically unique factors affecting manufacturing (such as low yields--initially--for larger mask ROMs...or the logistics of upgrading/revising manufacturing/fabrication processes).

However, these issues would have been resolved in time, especially if larger-size mask ROMs were an absolute *necessity* for PCE to compete.

[spenoza]

Well, since we're still chatting about Sqirrel and MML.

[Arkhan]

LOL

What the f*ck?!

SCHLAUCHI posted a longplay of Squirrel!?   It's just GNOP's tune on repeat forever!  LOL.


and Atlantean is 300$ on eBay?!

I AM A CELEBRITY.

lololo


Anyway, yeah, when you go MIDI, you lose the loop structure.

It's relatively easy to put back in with MML, though, since it supports patterns and loop/repeating.

No problem there.

Elmer, did you try FruityLoops in the end?  I believe I posted the links to a tutorial-ish thing in here already.

[elmer]

Anyway, yeah, when you go MIDI, you lose the loop structure.

It's relatively easy to put back in with MML, though, since it supports patterns and loop/repeating.

No problem there.

Errrr ... no "insurmountable" problem there, but a bit of a PITA for the musician that has to recreate those loops by hand-editing an MML text file once the tune is finished.

"Yes", it's how things used to be done, but it's not even remotely "modern-day-friendly".

Unfortunately, I can't think of any alternative except for the MOD/tracker style of music creation, which has it's own set of problems.

Elmer, did you try FruityLoops in the end?  I believe I posted the links to a tutorial-ish thing in here already.

It arrived last night, but it may be some time before I install it and try to get it working.

Michirin9801 joined the forum here a few days ago, and he's creating some of the best deflemask PCE music that I've heard.

So I'm currently a bit more inspired to put some time into continuing to rip-apart the deflemask output format and see if it can be converted into something that would be usable by my music-driver (when I port it over to the PCE). 

[Gredler]

So I'm currently a bit more inspired to put some time into continuing to rip-apart the deflemask output format and see if it can be converted into something that would be usable by my music-driver (when I port it over to the PCE). 

[Arkhan]

Its a little tedious, but not really complicated to add the looping in, at least.   I'd imagine someone who uses trackers and music software would be able to do it pretty quickly since the syntax is really easy.

IE:  ChannelName:  ***MML STUFF**** /ChannelName/  <<< Creates an endless loop of that channel.  Great for efficient drum usage.

or [2(pattern name)]  <<< Loops the pattern twice. 

It's unfortunate that going to MIDI loses the concept of repeating and looping.   Maybe there is a way, but, FruityLoops outputs a time-line of patterns.   You also lose the looping when you go MOD to MIDI, though.   MIDI is always an unrolled output. 



Do you have examples of the Deflemask PCE music from michirin9801 person?   I want to hear.

EDIT:  Oh, I found them.

Yeah, they sound good, especially because of the samples.

I was hoping for something besides covers though, lol.


That Eurobeat Night of Fire song cracked me up.   Good stuff.   

[elmer]

IE:  ChannelName:  ***MML STUFF**** /ChannelName/  <<< Creates an endless loop of that channel.  Great for efficient drum usage.

I imagine that it's easier for the original musician to see and edit these things than it is for me as just an ignorant programmer.

Being able to take advantage of the inherent repetition in music is really important for keeping the music data small.

Yeah, they sound good, especially because of the samples.

Well, according to his post in response to Chris Covell's music-analysis video on YouTube, he doesn't use samples much.

I *believe* that things like the drums are just the classic rapidly-changing noise+wave combination.

But since I can't find any of his tracks to actually download, I can't rip them apart to confirm that ... but I'd love to have the chance to do so!

I'm surprise that you didn't mention his Misty Blue cover ...

【PC-88】Misty Blue - Opening - Turbografx 16/PC engine arrange【Deflemask】

[Arkhan]

IE:  ChannelName:  ***MML STUFF**** /ChannelName/  <<< Creates an endless loop of that channel.  Great for efficient drum usage.

I imagine that it's easier for the original musician to see and edit these things than it is for me as just an ignorant programmer.

Being able to take advantage of the inherent repetition in music is really important for keeping the music data small.

I would think a musician using a tracker should be able to manage adding the looping back to MML.   If they can manage the goony ass effect columns of a tracker, they should be OK, I would hope.    Looping is one of the easiest parts of it, I think.   Outside of ABCDEFGing.

Well, according to his post in response to Chris Covell's music-analysis video on YouTube, he doesn't use samples much.

I *believe* that things like the drums are just the classic rapidly-changing noise+wave combination.

But since I can't find any of his tracks to actually download, I can't rip them apart to confirm that ... but I'd love to have the chance to do so!

I'm surprise that you didn't mention his Misty Blue cover ...

【PC-88】Misty Blue - Opening - Turbografx 16/PC engine arrange【Deflemask】

Some of the tunes seem to have had samples, but I was also clicking on more than just the PCE tunes.

I hadn't seen the Misty Blue one.   That's pretty awesome.   Yuzo's compositions would sound good on a bunch of toy xylophones and kazoos.   That dude's a machine.

I wonder if these are from scratch, or if some reference is used.  When I was messing around testing/demonstrating that Squirrel was actually working, I was just yanking MIDIs off VGmusic.com to throw through and fiddle around. 

One of my next goals personally for PCE music is to make some more elaborate music either as standalone stuff, or for upcoming games.   

I intentionally kept the music in Insanity and even Atlantean relatively simple/semi repetitive and to the point, mostly to avoid having it be a distraction while playing, since they are arcade-y games.

Insanity doesn't even have good drums.   I hadn't figured out how to do a good one yet, and we didn't really have time to be dicking around.   The soundtrack has re-mml'd ones with actual drums instead of a little crunchy noise.

You can definitely get some pretty convincing drums without samples.   I really like the kick drum I use in GNOP, Reflectron, and Atlantean.   

[touko]

This one is really good too :

[DarkKobold]

Would a sample-based engine allow us to get more realistic sound effects? It'd be nice to have realistic sound effects, rather than trying to reproduce a cat meow or screech using musical notes.