PCE PCM

[Michirin9801]

I meant to mention this before ... that looks really good, to me, nice work! 

Thank you very much ^^

[Arkhan]

Dude. I'm just giving you some shit. No worries. It's like, every time MSX is mentioned - it's always by arkhan lol. It's more weird to mention it here on PCE forums because its user base seems to have a pretty big disconnect from PCE (and everything else; it's its own thing).

We're just lucky nobody needs to complain about shitty scrolling in PCE games, otherwise the MSX would get invoked every 4th post!

Lolol just saw this. 

I have to laugh when people use that as their way to dismiss msx, citing youtube and never actually playing one.

I would never dis the hardware having never played on the real thing; that would make me look like an idiot.  No, I've played games on real MSX computers, and after 10 minutes the shake & bake scrolling made my eyes hurt.  Even ZX Spectrum games often did a better job.

MSX1 is sometimes hit or miss, and the speccy ports kind of just suck.   most of the good MSX1 games are single or flip screeners .     

Legend of Kage on MSX1 will make your brain melt .  its the worst of the jerky games.

MSX2 is where most of the good stuff is.

[elmer]

Those great 5V ARM microcontrollers from Cypress you brought up over a year ago are still the best solution here. Analog out is included, and if you add some sort of bidirectional comms in a mapper you can use it as a Cypress FX.

I ended up going with the FM3 family for my current project (specifically the MB9BF524K) and ported over my Windows softsynth without any huge issues. But this is a full music player, and I think in the case of the PCE it would be more useful to just complement what's already in the box.

That's one heck of a lot of impressive hardware in a $5 80-pin package! Wow! 

Sure ... you could run a lovely soft-synth or possibly an OPL3-emulation in that and feed it to the PCE.

I was kinda trying to keep to hardware that was actually available when the PCE was manufactured, to keep it more "authentic" in terms of something that really could have been sold as an add-on at the time ... but your way is far more practical in modern terms.

Either way, it would just be a "curiosity", and there would be no software for it, and no user demand, and I don't have the hardware skills anyway ... but it sure would have been cool! 

I can just-about-imagine a homebrew game shipping with one as a "collector" sort of thing.

Yep, we'd only get mono through the HuCard ...

Those old FM chips had lousy stereo-positioning anyway, so I don't think that we'd be losing much by keeping it mono.

The PCE's PSG could be used for all of the stereo-panned instruments.

Gotta love that FM-sound! ... and mixing it together with the PCE PSG channels would make something seriously fun. 

Still not going to happen, though, especially since the PCE already offers even-better-than-that ... full on orchestrated, engineered and effected CD-Audio! 

[Michirin9801]

Yep, we'd only get mono through the HuCard ...

Those old FM chips had lousy stereo-positioning anyway, so I don't think that we'd be losing much by keeping it mono.

The PCE's PSG could be used for all of the stereo-panned instruments.

Gotta love that FM-sound! ... and mixing it together with the PCE PSG channels would make something seriously fun. 

Still not going to happen, though, especially since the PCE already offers even-better-than-that ... full on orchestrated, engineered and effected CD-Audio! 

You know, that's kinda the point, if you wanted to do FM, you're probably already working on the Mega Drive or something like that...
If anyone comes to the PC engine wanting to make chiptunes, they want the PSG, they want those 5 bit waveforms, and maybe some samples to go with them...
Yeah an FM expansion would be a pretty cool novelty, and I sure would use the hell out it (although personally I'd stick a YM2151 in it)
But anyone wanting to work on the PC engine but wants music other than chiptunes, they're absolutely gonna use the CD...

[Arkhan]

If anyone comes to the PC engine wanting to make chiptunes, they want the PSG, they want those 5 bit waveforms, and maybe some samples to go with them...

But anyone wanting to work on the PC engine but wants music other than chiptunes, they're absolutely gonna use the CD...

This is precisely my point when I am a bit naysayer-y about good synth bass via samples.

It's not even the PC Engine sound at that point if you go crazy dragging in sounds from elsewhere.

I'd honestly figure that super synth'd out bass in the middle of a PCE tune might sound out of place.

Percussion is about the only exception to the rule, because nobody runs to any specific chip going DAMN, IM GONNA GET ME SOME DRUMS.   

They *all* suck at drums equally, (Except for the C64 probably).   FM is totally limp with drums half the time.  MSX-MUSIC (OPL2) drums are those standard FM drums you hear in toys and stuff.  It works, but you only get one sound out of it.

As weak as the bass can be for PCE, the super-sharp plucked bass, or the pretty plain bass from something like Bonk fits well with the rest of the sound.

and, the reason I pushed so hard to get something working for PCE chiptunes in the first place is because this thing is my favorite sound chip, and always has been since like 1990.

There's hardly anything special going on in this song technically but it sounds so good.    There's sampled bongos, and some pretty standard PC Engine sounds.   

It was pretty annoying that back then (2008ish), we didn't really have any option that was easily workable with a game while those asshats over in Nintendoland were jizzing all over famitracker and shit.

I'm glad there's more chiptune occurrences for PCE happening, as long as we don't get inundated with those stupid chipwank songs.  They're terrible.


I like being able to mix sounds if the machine was expected to do so, as was the case with MSX.   They always intended for it, being a computer, to be expandable.

and that's how we ended up with AKB48 on the MSX.   lol

CHECK OUT THE MML IN THE VIDEO. 

   2016.

If you want to mix shit on the PCE, just use CD.   Stop dicking around.   They put the CD there so you can store huge amounts of data, and add wacked out music.

[Michirin9801]

If anyone comes to the PC engine wanting to make chiptunes, they want the PSG, they want those 5 bit waveforms, and maybe some samples to go with them...

But anyone wanting to work on the PC engine but wants music other than chiptunes, they're absolutely gonna use the CD...

This is precisely my point when I am a bit naysayer-y about good synth bass via samples.

It's not even the PC Engine sound at that point if you go crazy dragging in sounds from elsewhere.

I'd honestly figure that super synth'd out bass in the middle of a PCE tune might sound out of place.

Percussion is about the only exception to the rule, because nobody runs to any specific chip going DAMN, IM GONNA GET ME SOME DRUMS.   

They *all* suck at drums equally, (Except for the C64 probably).   FM is totally limp with drums half the time.  MSX-MUSIC (OPL2) drums are those standard FM drums you hear in toys and stuff.  It works, but you only get one sound out of it.

As weak as the bass can be for PCE, the super-sharp plucked bass, or the pretty plain bass from something like Bonk fits well with the rest of the sound.

Well, there's a difference between wanting an FM bass and wanting the whole song to be FM...
You know, I actually really like the basses that I can get out of the PC engine PSG, but I just think that FM makes for even better basses, and being able to use one in a PC engine song, alongside sampled drums, strings, choirs and/or orch hits and still have the PC engine leads, all without having to use the CD add-on?
That's like PCE Batman but taken to the extreme! I just LOVE that idea!
With that in mind, using a sampled bass isn't gonna stop the PCE from sounding like a PCE, it's just gonna make it sound a bit better than it already does...
Also, it's not like I'm gonna stop making regular PCE music with no samples just because I could use an FM bass and Super Nintendo strings, choirs, orch-hits and percussion... I just welcome the ability to do that with open arms~

Oh and, I'd argue that the PCE does better drums than the C64 if you use the envelopes and the noise mode right... Also, you gotta cram the drums and the bass in the same channel on the C64 if you wanna make anything worthwhile anyway...

and, the reason I pushed so hard to get something working for PCE chiptunes in the first place is because this thing is my favorite sound chip, and always has been since like 1990.

There's hardly anything special going on in this song technically but it sounds so good.    There's sampled bongos, and some pretty standard PC Engine sounds.   

It was pretty annoying that back then (2008ish), we didn't really have any option that was easily workable with a game while those asshats over in Nintendoland were jizzing all over famitracker and shit.

And I applaud you for that!
The PCE may not be exactly my favourite-sounding soundchip, my favourite is always gonna be the Super Nintendo for several reasons including but not limited to nostalgia because I grew up with the cute little grey brick...
But the PCE has earned its way into my heard and it easily sits way up there in 2nd place tied with the Game Boy Advance (No seriously! And it's for surprisingly similar reasons to the PCE)

But the thing is that the PCE is the most fun system to work with (thanks in part to Deflemask being the most intuitive, user-friendly and fun-to-use tracker EVER), to quote the composer for Devil's Crush "It's easy to make awesome music for the PC Engine" and I couldn't agree enough!

But me loving the sound of the system as it is doesn't mean I wouldn't want to experiment with a new sound driver that makes it capable of even more out-of-the box!

[Arkhan]

Well, there's a difference between wanting an FM bass and wanting the whole song to be FM...
You know, I actually really like the basses that I can get out of the PC engine PSG, but I just think that FM makes for even better basses, and being able to use one in a PC engine song, alongside sampled drums, strings, choirs and/or orch hits and still have the PC engine leads, all without having to use the CD add-on?
That's like PCE Batman but taken to the extreme! I just LOVE that idea!

Yep, but, with great power comes great responsibility.  People tend to overdo it.  That's how that stupid arp sound got so popular. 

Also, at some points, I think PCE Batman is too overpowered with the samples and that slappy bass sound.   It ruins the leads in some songs especially if you listen to the one song that had an NES version.   The song sounds better on NES, to me.   A few volume tweaks would have been nice for the PCE one...  lol.   Good example of nice samples, that can inadvertently mess things up.

With that in mind, using a sampled bass isn't gonna stop the PCE from sounding like a PCE, it's just gonna make it sound a bit better than it already does...

Depends, really.   Shitty sounding samples are often a thing, lol.   I want to see someone do a good FM style synth bass sample on PCE.  If someone can do it, I really would like to see it.   I'm picky about those sounds though and would likely just prefer a standard PCE bass, because it is practically guaranteed to fit.

Oh and, I'd argue that the PCE does better drums than the C64 if you use the envelopes and the noise mode right... Also, you gotta cram the drums and the bass in the same channel on the C64 if you wanna make anything worthwhile anyway...

Eh...  I don't really think so.   I don't think you can do better than C64 with stock PCE drums.   Samples, definitely.   Chip?  No. 

 

There's lots more examples. 

having to cram stuff together isn't that bad either considering what these people have managed to figure out, lol.

And I applaud you for that!
The PCE may not be exactly my favourite-sounding soundchip, my favourite is always gonna be the Super Nintendo for several reasons including but not limited to nostalgia because I grew up with the cute little grey brick...
But the PCE has earned its way into my heard and it easily sits way up there in 2nd place tied with the Game Boy Advance (No seriously! And it's for surprisingly similar reasons to the PCE)

But the thing is that the PCE is the most fun system to work with (thanks in part to Deflemask being the most intuitive, user-friendly and fun-to-use tracker EVER), to quote the composer for Devil's Crush "It's easy to make awesome music for the PC Engine" and I couldn't agree enough!

But me loving the sound of the system as it is doesn't mean I wouldn't want to experiment with a new sound driver that makes it capable of even more out-of-the box!

I grew up with TG/SNES/MD simultaneously.  Outside of Squaresoft (Secret of Mana), I go TG, MD, SNES in terms of favorite.

I think you are only a little bit behind me in terms of age. 

I'm not saying don't go for a new sample driver thing, I am just stating that it shouldn't be used incorrectly.  That would suck.

[elmer]

Oh and, I'd argue that the PCE does better drums than the C64 if you use the envelopes and the noise mode right... Also, you gotta cram the drums and the bass in the same channel on the C64 if you wanna make anything worthwhile anyway...

Eh...  I don't really think so.   I don't think you can do better than C64 with stock PCE drums.   Samples, definitely.   Chip?  No. 

I'll go out-on-a-limb and say that you *may* well have to eat-your-words on that one when Michirin9801 finally gets the toolchain-capabilities that he's been asking for.

The ability to switch between a couple of waveforms in the 1st few frames to get the initial hit, followed by a frame-by-frame decrease in the in the noise frequency, all under a volume envelope ... should (IMHO) get some pretty-darned-nice results.

We'll have to see! 

AFAIK, the sheer number of the PCE's noise-frequency settings and their fine-granularity, is pretty-darned-rare for the time. 

[Arkhan]

Yeah, I'd be happy to do so if someone actually shows it to me.

Currently, it's the usual lots-of-talking with no evidence to back it up.   I'm more into the put up or shut up / believe it when I see it thing.

No offense, the PCE scene has been plagued with lots of rambling/talking/hypothetical wankery that has never actually come to fruition, lol.    It's influenced my own pessimism about a lot of things.

There's certainly not been any commercially released PCE games to ever have chip drums that sound as percussive as a SID can do, mostly because they just used samples instead.

I got a good kick drum simply by using a tonal sweep, and got an OK snare, but nothing near as punchy as a C64. 

Some of the C64s trick might actually be an aural illusion though.  They often created kicks/snares that also played bass at the same time to save on channels.   So, the mix might just inadvertently create the illusion that the drums are super thick. 

[esteban]

INTERLUDE: Honest question: I always thought the bass in China Warrior main tune was quite nice and always wished more HuCARDs pumped out bass like that... I take it that nothing special (no samples) were used to generate the bass line.

Otherwise, please continue your friendly arguments concerning the virtues/pitfalls of FM on PCE, sampled vs. PSG drums, the tragedy that Blodia only has a couple of songs, etc.

[Arkhan]

INTERLUDE: Honest question: I always thought the bass in China Warrior main tune was quite nice and always wished more HuCARDs pumped out bass like that... I take it that nothing special (no samples) were used to generate the bass line.

the bass in China Warrior is simple.   It's just a strange envelope that gives it this bubbleup kind of effect.

It works really with the style of music.   I had similar sounds for Atlantean but the music is different so it didn't have the same outcome.

So, I switched to the bass that it has now.   

[sunteam_paul]

I would say Tatsujin's unsampled drums are a great example of what the PCE can do in that respect.

City Hunter had some nice drums, I don't think any of those were samples.

[Arkhan]

I would say Tatsujin's unsampled drums are a great example of what the PCE can do in that respect.

City Hunter had some nice drums, I don't think any of those were samples.

Yeah those might be the best examples of non sampled drumming, especially when City Hunter is belting out the tom rolls..   Even so, I don't know that I'd say these are better than the C64's drums, id say they are maybe punchier at times, but the C64 ones are thicker?

It's just too bad lots of C64 games were terrible but had nice music, lol.

[Michirin9801]

Oh and, I'd argue that the PCE does better drums than the C64 if you use the envelopes and the noise mode right... Also, you gotta cram the drums and the bass in the same channel on the C64 if you wanna make anything worthwhile anyway...

Eh...  I don't really think so.   I don't think you can do better than C64 with stock PCE drums.   Samples, definitely.   Chip?  No. 

You know, I can make better unsampled drums in Deflemask than most commercial games, not all, but most, but if I have to go for an example in a game, my go-to is always gonna be Xanadu II, particularly this song:

Other than this song, the drums from Xanadu are quite a bit softer than C64 drums, but personally I like them better than most C64 drums I've heard...
Currently I'm basing my drums on those of Xanadu, but I'm also trying to do some original ones that are 'less soft'...

I'll go out-on-a-limb and say that you *may* well have to eat-your-words on that one when Michirin9801 finally gets the toolchain-capabilities that he's been asking for.

The ability to switch between a couple of waveforms in the 1st few frames to get the initial hit, followed by a frame-by-frame decrease in the in the noise frequency, all under a volume envelope ... should (IMHO) get some pretty-darned-nice results.

We'll have to see! 

AFAIK, the sheer number of the PCE's noise-frequency settings and their fine-granularity, is pretty-darned-rare for the time. 

If only I had the right wavetables and access to the other noise frequencies I'm sure I could make something really nice!
Like what Kommisar did in this song:

Great DAC Kicks! Would make for some amazing electronic-sounding music which I'm also a fan of, and I've asked them if I could have the wavetables they used, but I haven't gotten an answer sadly...
_{oh and, I'm not a 'he' >w>}

Also, at some points, I think PCE Batman is too overpowered with the samples and that slappy bass sound.   It ruins the leads in some songs especially if you listen to the one song that had an NES version.   The song sounds better on NES, to me.   A few volume tweaks would have been nice for the PCE one...  lol.   Good example of nice samples, that can inadvertently mess things up.

Well, I like the PCE version better, I just wish the PCE game was a platformer more along the lines of the NES game, but with its soundtrack intact...

having to cram stuff together isn't that bad either considering what these people have managed to figure

If anything that impresses me more

I grew up with TG/SNES/MD simultaneously.  Outside of Squaresoft (Secret of Mana), I go TG, MD, SNES in terms of favorite.

I think you are only a little bit behind me in terms of age. 

I'm not saying don't go for a new sample driver thing, I am just stating that it shouldn't be used incorrectly.  That would suck.

Umm, nah... I've said it before in another thread, but I grew up in the 2000s, I wasn't even born to experience the 4th generation, but that didn't stop me from playing on my older cousin's Super Nintendo and even borrowing it for years, and even after I had to give it back I had ZSNES to back me up and not too long after I got a Game Boy Advance, and being able to play Super Mario World during school recess was like, the best thing ever!
While my classmates were playing GTA and... Uhh... Whatever else was on PS2, I was having my mind blown by Donkey Kong Country and Megaman X

I only discovered the MD and the TurboGrafx-16 through the Wii's Virtual Console, and later on emulation, and I fell in love with both systems, however I think you can guess which one I was more attracted to ;3
It does help that my first impression of the system was Rondo of Blood, I thought the game was gonna be identical to the SNES version which I grew up playing or worse, but it was so unacceptably better that it stabbed me right in the nostalgia! And I just HAD to have more of that!

And I know where you're coming from, but I can't help but to be excited about it and the possibilities it brings~
If I can make an FM bass sound good in 1 bit then I can make it sound good in 5 bit, it's just a matter of knowing which bass to sample, and the one I have in mind is neither too harsh/gritty, nor too twangy...
(If you're curious, it's the bass from Valkyrie the Power Beauties on the PC-98)

[Michirin9801]

Okay, you wanted an example of a sampled FM bass? Here's one!
http://sta.sh/0tqlyutfr4w (Mind you this song is incomplete)
What I did here is sample the bass I've mentioned in the previous post (the one from Valkyrie TPB) resample the samples to 7KHz in Audacity, then import them into Famitracker to use with the DPCM...
Why NES though? Because it's the closest approximation I can get right now to what the sampled FM bass might sound like on the PCE...
That said though, I expect them to sound better than this on the PCE given how the DPCM is 1 bit and the PCE PCM is 5 bit and it's gonna loop the samples which I can't do on the NES... (Not to a useful extent at least)

If anything, I have plenty of other basses ripped from lots of other PC-98 and X68000 games, so if this isn't good enough I could try it with a number of other basses and see which ones work best!