Author Topic: PCE PCM  (Read 10665 times)

Arkhan

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #120 on: January 12, 2017, 06:25:16 PM »
I was excited that this was going to be a cover of the Ventures' "Walk Don't Run", lol.

That FM bass doesn't sound that great to me, and gets pretty weak in the lower registers.   I'm not sure if the extra-bitness is really going to help us that much.  I could be wrong. 

On PCE, you might as well just use a normal, punchy, enveloped bass and not waste the resources, as the timbre may not be much different.   Good FM/Synthy bass is the kind of phat, thumpy/punchy sound that you can feel in your nuts while you're playing.

How old are you exactly?  I mean, I was growing up playing PS2 also.  We can't be that far apart really, lol. I was born in 1988. 

At least you grew up with broadband basically, so downloading and experiencing all of this stuff wasn't a pain in the ass.

Technically, Batman's soundtrack is better on PCE, but the mixing could use some work, I think.   The rhythm tracks shouldn't drown out the lead.  That's not a good time.

I'm curious how some C64 drums would sound if you sampled them onto the PCE, actually.    You can get some pretty rattly percussion out of the C64.   Some of it might sound cool.  The drums are also fairly wet.   The reason PCE drums often sound "better" is that they're more dry, so they have a better contrast against the leads.

Those same kind of drums would probably get completely lost, or sound out of place against a SID tune, as most sid stuff is pretty wet sounding. 

But, wet drums against the usual PCE sound miiiiight sound cool.



I'm surprised you don't like the SID more, honestly.   You like eurobeat and crap right?  :D

 

^^^ This is probably my favorite SID tune ever.   It's 100% lit as f*ck.  One of the rare times where the arps are doing something productive with their existence, instead of being some blaring dumpster fire that's trying to be the lead.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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ccovell

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2017, 09:18:52 PM »
I'm surprised you don't like the SID more, honestly.   You like eurobeat and crap right?  :D
I love all this lighter-bridge interfacing you're doing.

Arkhan

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2017, 10:08:23 PM »
I'm surprised you don't like the SID more, honestly.   You like eurobeat and crap right?  :D
I love all this lighter-bridge interfacing you're doing.

What?  I like that crap too, lol. 

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Bonknuts

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2017, 11:50:13 PM »

Technically, Batman's soundtrack is better on PCE, but the mixing could use some work, I think.   The rhythm tracks shouldn't drown out the lead.  That's not a good time.

 Yeah, the mixing on some tracks needs some work, but the bass instrument sounds great. But that's not what's special about it; it's the fact that they did attack phase samples and sustain phase samples (with looping). Because of the looping, the whole 28 note range sample pack is pretty small. This should have been exploited more on the PCE. It's sensible and doable for programmer back then, and definitely within the means of the PCE's resource capability.




 But I wanted to mention thing related to Batman: attack phase. Supposedly the most advance and complicated part of any instrument is the attack phase (I don't mean the volume, but replicating an instrument). LA synths use samples mixed in with other parts of waveform generation just for the attack phase of an instrument. That's a clever idea. Something that could be exploited on the PCE; sample attack phase and normal PSG for the rest. Why PSG for the rest and not samples? Because if you've played around with samples on the PCE, at lower rate and lower bit depth, you've come the realization that some samples just get too crushed by the reduction - especially stuff with important high frequency meat to the sample.  In this respect, you don't even need soft sampler support; attack phases are short so you can have lots of presampled ranges for them with little storage space needed.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 11:52:20 PM by Bonknuts »

Arkhan

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #124 on: January 13, 2017, 03:58:00 AM »
Yeah, that sort of idea is what made Roland synths able to do some of the stuff that Yamaha (FM) stuff was already good at (percussive/woodwindy/metallic sound). 

Before this, subtractive synthesis was Roland's jam, and you couldn't get realistic sounds.   You just get what sounds like Rush or Journey's albums, lol.

I remember trying for hours to get my Alpha Juno 1 to sound like a real piano.  It never worked.  You'd almost get it, but it never sounded right.

The ironic thing is, I finally got a synth from Roland that does that, and I still end up preferring my SH-101 and crap.  Go figure.    I sold the D-50 for a pretty decent chunk of money.   I think they are back to not being worth too much now.   

It was pretty fun to use.   I sort of miss it, because you could still do some of the usual rolandy sounds with it

They've actually got a D-50 card you can use with that fancy ass Roland V-Synth now.   

It's probably more reliable than a real D-50.



Doing that sort of stuff right is probably how you'd get away with really, really good sounding samples.


But, this doesn't really help with that synth-bass issue I keep mentioning, lol. 
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #125 on: January 13, 2017, 04:02:10 AM »
That FM bass doesn't sound that great to me, and gets pretty weak in the lower registers.   I'm not sure if the extra-bitness is really going to help us that much.  I could be wrong. 
The bass isn't good enough? Perhaps it isn't, but as I've said before I have plenty of other basses to try and sample, I'm gonna try with one of the basses from Carat Magical Blocks next...
As for it getting weak in the lower registers, that's more due to the DPCM than the samples themselves, I doubt the PCE would have that problem...

OR I could go the opposite route and make the PCE sound more like a GBA, and sample the Leads and drums while playing the bass and harmonic support on the PSG (the harmonic support would be square waves of course)
But I'm probably not gonna do that because I need more variety in the leads than in the basses, so that would take more samples and eat up more of the system's memory...

How old are you exactly?  I mean, I was growing up playing PS2 also.  We can't be that far apart really, lol. I was born in 1988. 

At least you grew up with broadband basically, so downloading and experiencing all of this stuff wasn't a pain in the ass.
I'm 20, gonna be 21 this summer, so I was a 90s baby and a 2000s kid...
And because I'm from a poor-as-f*** family I only got access to the internet in 2007, before that I had to wait for my dad to come home from work in the weekends, where he had internet access, with a Super Nintendo Rom in a Floppy Disk so that I could play it on my Windows 98 Pentium III computer built with donated parts >w>
Good times... Played lots of Super Bomberman 3 with my sis!

I'm surprised you don't like the SID more, honestly.   You like eurobeat and crap right?  :D
I do love me some Eurobeat ;3
But the thing is that Eurobeat can only be done justice with Samples!
SID synth doesn't cut it >w>
And even if I had all the right samples to use, I'm hardly skilled enough to do Eurobeat justice...

Arkhan

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #126 on: January 13, 2017, 04:51:24 AM »
But the thing is that Eurobeat can only be done justice with Samples!
SID synth doesn't cut it >w>
And even if I had all the right samples to use, I'm hardly skilled enough to do Eurobeat justice...
Samples? bitch please.   :D    SID is actually pretty spastically good at sampling.   The SID is such an impressive soundchip overall... that's unfortunately used wrong sometimes (arparparparparparparparparpapr)



lololol.  OU OU OU OU OUTRUN.

Jeroen Tel is a f*cking genius.

and yeah, you're the exact age as I figured.  I have a buddy that's your age.    You guys are at that weird age gap where you guys think the library is just this building with free wifi.   lol

I don't think you should ever use samples for the leads in a PCE song.   The lead sounds are where the PC Engine truly shines, IMO.  Taking those away is just a bad idea. 



Try using the bass from Romancia:





[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Arkhan

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #127 on: January 13, 2017, 05:08:15 AM »
   shit I left out Savage.   Shame on me.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #128 on: January 13, 2017, 05:16:31 AM »
Samples? bitch please.   :D    SID is actually pretty spastically good at sampling.   The SID is such an impressive soundchip overall... that's unfortunately used wrong sometimes (arparparparparparparparparpapr)
Might I add that the C64 can only handle 4 bit samples, and the PCE can do 5 bit ;3
(But yeah, 4 bit is better than the Nintendo's 1 bit DPCM)
Oh hey there's that! The C64 using bass samples in the Outrun song, that's more or less the quality I'm expecting to get out of the PCE, maybe a little higher due to the 5 bits...

I don't think you should ever use samples for the leads in a PCE song.   The lead sounds are where the PC Engine truly shines, IMO.  Taking those away is just a bad idea. 
Agreed, which is why I said I'm probably not gonna do that...

Try using the bass from Romancia:


Will do!

Arkhan

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2017, 05:23:11 AM »
I am wondering how that bass is going to actually sound when stacked up with PCE stuff.  It might be the case that all this effort goes into a less than impressive end result because the PCE leads and such aren't exactly thick. 

I always described the PCE leads as warm and chirpy.    They've never been very phat. 

That bass in Outrun is not my favorite though.  It's more thunky and percussive but fits well with the like breakdance rapjam beat and musical style. 

For the synthy/phat basses, C64 doesn't exactly *need* to sample, though.  It can already just do that.

What it can't do on it's own though, is the thunky / percussive bass sounds.   Which goes into what Tom was talking about with LA synthesis. 


LA Synthesis sounds like a gym for musicians.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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elmer

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2017, 05:29:17 AM »
I would say Tatsujin's unsampled drums are a great example of what the PCE can do in that respect.

City Hunter had some nice drums, I don't think any of those were samples.

It would probably be nice to rip-apart the .hes files for those games, and the Xanadu games, and try to see exactly what they're doing to create those drums that people like.


Yeah, the mixing on some tracks needs some work, but the bass instrument sounds great. But that's not what's special about it; it's the fact that they did attack phase samples and sustain phase samples (with looping). Because of the looping, the whole 28 note range sample pack is pretty small. This should have been exploited more on the PCE. It's sensible and doable for programmer back then, and definitely within the means of the PCE's resource capability.

Yep, this is definitely something that we could do in a new driver.

I'd love to be able to give people that option, and especially with your 4-samples-in-2-channels code (both frequency-scaled and fixed versions).

Giving folks the options, and then letting them choose which ones work for them, would seem like the best route to take.

Oh ... and the soft-mixing will, of-course, be much cheaper to implement with the fast CPU on the PC-FX!  Creating a driver for that machine is definitely a goal.


But I wanted to mention thing related to Batman: attack phase. Supposedly the most advance and complicated part of any instrument is the attack phase (I don't mean the volume, but replicating an instrument). LA synths use samples mixed in with other parts of waveform generation just for the attack phase of an instrument. That's a clever idea. Something that could be exploited on the PCE; sample attack phase and normal PSG for the rest. Why PSG for the rest and not samples? Because if you've played around with samples on the PCE, at lower rate and lower bit depth, you've come the realization that some samples just get too crushed by the reduction - especially stuff with important high frequency meat to the sample.  In this respect, you don't even need soft sampler support; attack phases are short so you can have lots of presampled ranges for them with little storage space needed.

Yep, this is another great idea, too, and might really allow the musician to create some interesting sounds at little cost.


Michirin9801: Both of these two capabilities that bonknuts mentions are things that seem like they could be triggered by abusing deflemask's Wave Macro and Arp Macro, again (at least for now) ... although Delek's cooperation and a bit of UI work would be my preferred long-term solution.

I suspect that having someone actually create a tune that used these features would help encourage him to make any changes ... but there's still the small roadblock of actually getting the base huzak driver written first, before we go wild with samples.  :wink:

Michirin9801

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2017, 06:06:01 AM »
Michirin9801: Both of these two capabilities that bonknuts mentions are things that seem like they could be triggered by abusing deflemask's Wave Macro and Arp Macro, again (at least for now) ... although Delek's cooperation and a bit of UI work would be my preferred long-term solution.

I suspect that having someone actually create a tune that used these features would help encourage him to make any changes ... but there's still the small roadblock of actually getting the base huzak driver written first, before we go wild with samples.  :wink:
I'm kind of already doing that with that steel drum instrument you know? >w>
The problem is that the Deflemask forum seems to be a little, umm... Dead...
I post there and nobody answers...

My guess is that Delek is working hard on the next version of Deflemask, and thus is too busy to answer, but I don't know...

Bonknuts

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #132 on: January 13, 2017, 01:28:00 PM »
LA Synthesis sounds like a gym for musicians.

Ahhahahaha it does :D

Michirin9801

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #133 on: January 13, 2017, 02:17:16 PM »
Okay so, here's a couple more examples of sampled FM basses at 7KHz on the NES
Carat Magical Blocks - BGM#5 with the bass from the exact same song on the PC-98
http://sta.sh/0i7cvoanj38

and CyberBlock Metal Orange - Stage 3 with the bass from Romancia's Opening theme
http://sta.sh/09472c9hxd4

So, the Romancia bass sounds more like what I wanted the Valkyrie bass to sound like, I'd just put it on the Walk Don't Run cover, but I forgot to save the song after I exported the .nsf so all of that work is pretty much lost now >w>
So I covered another song, one that I know like the back of my hand and could finish pretty quickly...
Also, forgive me for the popping in the song, artifact of the DPCM channel whenever I turn it off..

Both basses sound kinda similar, but then again, it's the NES DPCM, it makes a lot of basses sound really similar... I also made these basses a bit louder than the previous one, but now I think I went a bit overboard with their volume yet again...
Out of these two, personally, I'm a bit more satisfied with the sound from the Carat bass...

Another bass that I'm willing to try is actually one from Final Fight 3! Yeah I know, it's not sampled from FM, but that bass already sounds a lot like FM so... Why not? ;3
Oh and, there's yet another bass from a different Carat song that I'd like to try and sample too!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 02:23:10 PM by Michirin9801 »

elmer

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Re: PCE PCM
« Reply #134 on: January 13, 2017, 03:35:54 PM »
Okay so, here's a couple more examples of sampled FM basses at 7KHz on the NES
Carat Magical Blocks - BGM#5 with the bass from the exact same song on the PC-98
http://sta.sh/0i7cvoanj38

and CyberBlock Metal Orange - Stage 3 with the bass from Romancia's Opening theme
http://sta.sh/09472c9hxd4


Errr ... this will probably sound terribly ignorant ... but what's a .nsf file, and what plays it?  :oops: