Author Topic: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them  (Read 4175 times)

Jibbajaba

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2016, 07:13:02 AM »
While the guy certainly seems like a shitbag, I have absolutely no interest in doing some kind of "expose" video on his bullshit business.  The VAST majority of people who buy his shit know that it's fake and don't care because they're collectards.  For me or anyone else with "more reach" to make a video about him, no matter how negatively it paints him, will just serve to increase awareness of his products, and most-likely drive sales.  I also have no interest in inviting drama to my channel.  I have to deal with enough bullshit from the mouth-breathers of the world in the comments sections of my videos as it is.  ("YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAUNCH OF THE PLAYSTATION BUT DON'T EVEN MENTION FINAL FANTASY VII.  f*ckING KILL YOURSELF YOU COCK SUCKING FAGET.  STOP MAKING VIDEOS BECAUSE YOUR A f*ckING IDIOT.")

esteban

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2016, 07:53:49 AM »
While the guy certainly seems like a shitbag, I have absolutely no interest in doing some kind of "expose" video on his bullshit business.  The VAST majority of people who buy his shit know that it's fake and don't care because they're collectards.  For me or anyone else with "more reach" to make a video about him, no matter how negatively it paints him, will just serve to increase awareness of his products, and most-likely drive sales.  I also have no interest in inviting drama to my channel.  I have to deal with enough bullshit from the mouth-breathers of the world in the comments sections of my videos as it is.  ("YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAUNCH OF THE PLAYSTATION BUT DON'T EVEN MENTION FINAL FANTASY VII.  f*ckING KILL YOURSELF YOU COCK SUCKING FAGET.  STOP MAKING VIDEOS BECAUSE YOUR A f*ckING IDIOT.")

Yeah, I hear you.

I guess, as far as a PSA is concerned, it is best to talk about the issue in general, without ever citing specific scoundrels (past or present).

Thanks for helping me! I know what I'm going to work on now (for fun).

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Gypsy

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2016, 08:26:36 AM »
While the guy certainly seems like a shitbag, I have absolutely no interest in doing some kind of "expose" video on his bullshit business.  The VAST majority of people who buy his shit know that it's fake and don't care because they're collectards.  For me or anyone else with "more reach" to make a video about him, no matter how negatively it paints him, will just serve to increase awareness of his products, and most-likely drive sales.  I also have no interest in inviting drama to my channel.  I have to deal with enough bullshit from the mouth-breathers of the world in the comments sections of my videos as it is.  ("YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAUNCH OF THE PLAYSTATION BUT DON'T EVEN MENTION FINAL FANTASY VII.  f*ckING KILL YOURSELF YOU COCK SUCKING FAGET.  STOP MAKING VIDEOS BECAUSE YOUR A f*ckING IDIOT.")

Keep in mind I know NOTHING about maintaining a successful youtube channel. You could disable comments, maybe that's a death sentence though.

Also that example real or not is hilarious.

Arjak

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2016, 09:54:41 AM »
While I understand why Tobias is hated around here, and I know he has done some pretty selfish things, there is an issue that I would like to bring up here.

I live on a fairly modest monthly budget, and that makes it extremely difficult to justify buying Turbo games right now, because eBay sellers are charging obscene amounts for even common games. When I first entered the Turbo scene, a copy of Neutopia II was selling for about $100. Now that's what a copy of the first game is being listed at.

With that being the situation, there is no way I could buy a legit copy of games like Beyond Shadowgate, Dynastic Hero, or Dungeon Explorer II, and still feel comfortable about it. I could burn a CD-R, but we know that those are not great for the lasers in our systems, and frankly, look butt-ugly when the game's on the shelf between plays.

Tobias' repros are not cheap, but I can still get four games for less than the price of one (legit copy), and it's professionally pressed, printed, and looks like an actual product that I can feel happy to have on my shelf and in my CD drive. For the first time, I have a chance to actually feel like I "own" these games. That would never happen if I were left to the nonexistent mercies of eBay sellers.

Should Tobias try to make his repros look legit? No. Should he profit off of the homebrew community without permission? Of course not. However, I'd much rather deal with him than the eBay sellers. In fact, I'd argue that it's because of them that we have this situation in the first place. Tobias provides a service to people who want these games but cannot afford them, and I am happy to support that...up to a point. I won't be purchasing his unauthorized copies of fan translations or homebrews out of respect for those who make them.

Does that make me a selfish person? Yeah, probably, but if it means I can own and experience "rare games" like Dynastic Hero without breaking the bank or funding swindling resellers, I can live with that. Games are meant to be played, not bought and sold like stocks.
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elmer

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2016, 10:08:06 AM »
Indeed, there are multiple issues with PCEWorks that folks should be educated on:

(1) Profiteering. Leaving aside the ethics of "reproductions" (and regardless of whether they are clearly labeled/marketed as such) we can address profiteering. I believe there is a moral distinction between (a) a fan selling a modest number of reproductions (labeled and marketed as such) at modest profit (that is, slightly above cost of materials/shipping + labor) vs. (b) a larger-scale business making massive profit (above cost of materials/labor).

Yes, I do see the moral distinction there.

But when you're engaged in act (a), then I believe that you've lost all moral-authority to get up-in-arms about act (b).

I would say that that also applies to the community that supports act (a).

BTW ... where I'm from, "profiteering" is usually frowned-upon as the act of making excessive profits in times of shortage when something is *needed*, like food supplies in an emergency, or military items during a war.

A store that tripled the price of Twinkies because the factory had discontinued them would be seen as a bunch of a$$holes ... but it could also be considered as just a case of supply-vs-demand, or that horrible phrase "market forces".

As could the actions of a certain large company in creating an artifical-shortage of NES Classic Edition consoles in order to increase the hype surrounding them and to raise their profile in people's minds.


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(2) Deception/authenticity of product. Passing off bootleg discs as (a) original items or (b) legitimate/sanctioned pressings. As we know, this is a problem not only for initial purchaser, but for all subsequent reselling/purchasing of product. I would argue that even "PCEWorks-branded" releases present a problem because they have an "air of authenticity" to them... this is easily solved if all items are clearly labeled and marketed as contemporary reproductions (non-sanctioned by IP holder) and are easily identified as such.

Tobias's latest trick of only putting his PCEWorks branding on the inside is definitely a lousy move, and is bound to lead to deceptive sellers passing them off as the real thing.

What's sad, is that if he is called on it, I can see him actually providing evidence to show that his customers actually asked him to make things look more "original" so that they can get little stiffies from staring at their shelves full of unplayed-games.

Now, if you choose to believe that his releases have an "air of authenticity", then I can only say "caveat emptor".

Back in the UK we had laws against deceptive advertising.

From what I can see here in America, those kind of protections are believed to be "socialist/evil".


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(3) Intellectual Property. The ethics of non-profit and/or for-profit reproductions of intellectual property is an important issue, but does not have to be central to a critique of Tobias/PCEWorks. I listed 1&2 above in an attempt to find "common ground" with "everyone", despite their own views on reproducing/distributing intellectual property without permission.

OK, in order to find "common ground", I'll refrain from commenting about people who accept money for distributing intellectual-property that they don't own.  :wink:

Bonknuts

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2016, 10:52:59 AM »
While I understand why Tobias is hated around here, and I know he has done some pretty selfish things, there is an issue that I would like to bring up here.

I live on a fairly modest monthly budget, and that makes it extremely difficult to justify buying Turbo games right now, because eBay sellers are charging obscene amounts for even common games. When I first entered the Turbo scene, a copy of Neutopia II was selling for about $100. Now that's what a copy of the first game is being listed at.

With that being the situation, there is no way I could buy a legit copy of games like Beyond Shadowgate, Dynastic Hero, or Dungeon Explorer II, and still feel comfortable about it. I could burn a CD-R, but we know that those are not great for the lasers in our systems, and frankly, look butt-ugly when the game's on the shelf between plays.

Tobias' repros are not cheap, but I can still get four games for less than the price of one (legit copy), and it's professionally pressed, printed, and looks like an actual product that I can feel happy to have on my shelf and in my CD drive. For the first time, I have a chance to actually feel like I "own" these games. That would never happen if I were left to the nonexistent mercies of eBay sellers.

Should Tobias try to make his repros look legit? No. Should he profit off of the homebrew community without permission? Of course not. However, I'd much rather deal with him than the eBay sellers. In fact, I'd argue that it's because of them that we have this situation in the first place. Tobias provides a service to people who want these games but cannot afford them, and I am happy to support that...up to a point. I won't be purchasing his unauthorized copies of fan translations or homebrews out of respect for those who make them.

Does that make me a selfish person? Yeah, probably, but if it means I can own and experience "rare games" like Dynastic Hero without breaking the bank or funding swindling resellers, I can live with that. Games are meant to be played, not bought and sold like stocks.

 I'm not attacking you personally, but I think your perspective (because you gave an example) should be put into context. So.. don't take this personally. (Also, please read the following in Laurence Fishburne's voice. Thanks).

 1) What right do you have to anything? I mean, complaining that you can't afford this or that, when it isn't a matter of life or death, or even the difference between eating unhealthy junk food vs eating healthy (i.e. more expensive), or not having the income to move out of the ghetto <- better quality of life by being safer. You're talking about physically owning games, to play on your old relic of a system. You have no inherent right to that. And in context, you have every opportunity to play or "own" any of these games via emulation, CD-R, or flashcard. So this whole, "I can't afford it" thing seems petty, especially knowing how expensive these systems are to collect for -> this isn't some surprise to you. Even if you did buy the game from PCEWORKS, it's not the original. It's still a fantasy of owning the original, which really isn't any different than CD-Rs, flashcard, or emulation. It's fantasy shelf candy.

 Don't get me wrong. From a human-science perspective, I understand the experience with the relationship of owning a physical copy of the game. I understand that the experience of the game is more than just the controller and interaction with the game logic; it's the feel of the real controller, the sounds of the CD drive seeking, the act of taking the game out of its case, parsing through the manual, and placing it in the system - the physical affirmation of the system sitting in front of you; the aesthetics. All of it. But it's still a choice, not a right or something owed. And you have other options that aren't preventing you from playing any of these games - only your own view that's preventing you from enjoying them via other options.

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Should Tobias try to make his repros look legit? No. Should he profit off of the homebrew community without permission? Of course not. However, I'd much rather deal with him than the eBay sellers.
Before I continue, you might say - "But hey Mr. Bnuts, you see it differently because you're directly affected by this". I've come to terms with all of this. And..  I don't give a shit about him anymore, relation to anything I've worked on. I've reconciled it, internally. But.. this quote right here - what exactly are you saying? I'll tell you what I see...

 2) You feel bad that Tobias cheats people with deception, and you feel bad that he rips off homebrewers.. but none of that compares to the evil of having to deal with ebay sellers of the real products??? Do you realize the absurdity of that statement? I know you're trying to rationalize it with the minimal amount of guilt or feeling shitty about it, but in the end you pretty much just said, "I feel a little bad about what he's doing, but not bad enough to not to support Tobias". Your nod to the opposition is just that - for show. And that's what it boils down to for you. And if that's how you feel, then just say it. Don't shift the blame on ebay sellers. That's ridiculous. No one is forcing you to do anything - you made a choice. Own it. Don't squirm around it because it make your conscience feel better.

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Does that make me a selfish person? Yeah, probably, but if it means I can own and experience "rare games" like Dynastic Hero without breaking the bank or funding swindling resellers, I can live with that. Games are meant to be played, not bought and sold like stocks.
Emulation destroys this whole argument. You DO have the games available to you. This means you have choices. Does it make you selfish? It think it makes you self-righteous; you think you're owed something, that you have an inherent the right to something or some game.. for whatever your justification is. But you're not owed anything in relation to this system. Buying his items isn't just a decision on the morals and ethics of him profiting on someone else's work (Capcom, NEC, whoever) - it's the fact that when you purchase something from this specific man, you're not only supporting what he does, you're elevating/promoting what he represents. Fraud, deception, robbing from the very community that gave it something special. You need to own that too.

Recap: I'm not saying don't buy from him. I'm saying that if you make that choice, you need to own it for what it is - and not justify it with bullshit, to make your conscience feel better.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 11:05:04 AM by Bonknuts »

Black Tiger

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2016, 11:09:28 AM »
I'm not pro-repro/bootlegs/etc and don't think that selling one type of bootleg is fine while selling a similar type is absolutely wrong. But it's not a singlular issue with only two sides to be on.

Many published PC Engine homebrew games have various copyrighted logos on them which are used without permission. This site has ads and uses various copyrighted media without permission and once sold Turbo goods. I don't think that it is exactly the same as selling PCEWorks games, but if you believe that making money from using someone else's intellectual property without permission is stealing, then it all is. Technically, buying and selling used games is robbing publishers, especially today with all of the scalping going on.

I don't think that many people here think that any kind of bootlegging is fine, but you also can't really be involved in anything related to old games today without supporting some form of copyright infringement. The PRGE had bootlegs sold at most booths which were selling games. Many tables were for businesses which only sold bootlegs. One a$$hole was selling only bootleg Everdrives, without even changing the name. He probably just bought those crappy Chinese knock-offs in bulk and put his ugly labels on them.

I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.
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Punch

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2016, 01:15:13 PM »
No company can make any significant amount of money with their old IPs anymore with PCE reprints. They don't make money on any of their old copies being sold around on ebay either. Yes it is their intellectual property but bootlegs aren't directly competing with them or causing significant revenue loss (I don't agree too much with copyright laws too, I think they need some reforms but that's for another time...). I support bootlegging (aka REPRODUCTIONS for people who don't like to admit it), with some caveats...

First of all, I believe that a bootleg must clearly be marked as such since doing a perfect copy of a disc and its packaging makes defrauding someone wanting ORIGINAL, made-in-japan 1980-90 pressings of games very easy. Considering that games are significant cultural items I think that doing that is bullshit on all levels.

Secondly, and this is something that people might not agree with, the bootleg musn't be sold for a premium! The morality of a pirate operation goes up with the price. If sold at cost, it's not really a problem, if sold between cost and original MSRP, it's nothing to complain about because you have cost overheads and a reasonable amount of profit isn't all that bad, but if done with prices approaching the expensive original copies then it reeks of pure greed and I'm definitely not ok with it. Reminder that I'm talking about games in formats/platforms that are abandoned and not likely to be touched again by the original IP owners. Worse if includes collector's trinkets to justify an unfair price.


I think tobias sucks and that he can shove his LOVE OF IT up his ass. He violated the first point to be able to scam people HIMSELF at first (sapphire with faked hudson soft letter), then started doing clearly marked repros to soften the backlash (and at-cost copies to shut up PCEFX about it), waiting for calm waters again to repeat what he did with sapphire, only this time he'll sell undistinguishable booties to people who will most likely scam people knowingly. I'm willing to bet he did that to be able to transfer the blame to his consumers while scamming people himself on ebay and forums with puppet accounts. Not a stretch considering his hudson letter stunt.

It's also very obvious that he repeatedly violates the second point I've made and since everyone knows what he has done for the past few years I'll just post a pic of a christmas special product he's selling... hmm let's branch for the weeaboo collectard market for the money love of it!!!!!!!




tl:dr -- quit being lazy and read everything... FOR THE LOVE OF IT!!!

Punch

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2016, 01:19:52 PM »
Double post: I just read that the Mahjong Blablabla Special box will have panties of random color and "there’s no way of telling the color from the outside, so don’t ask us."

If you think that this is the same as the pre-flashed hucard booties being sold here then I really don't know what to say.

Gypsy

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2016, 01:21:11 PM »
I'm not pro-repro/bootlegs/etc and don't think that selling one type of bootleg is fine while selling a similar type is absolutely wrong. But it's not a singlular issue with only two sides to be on.

Many published PC Engine homebrew games have various copyrighted logos on them which are used without permission. This site has ads and uses various copyrighted media without permission and once sold Turbo goods. I don't think that it is exactly the same as selling PCEWorks games, but if you believe that making money from using someone else's intellectual property without permission is stealing, then it all is. Technically, buying and selling used games is robbing publishers, especially today with all of the scalping going on.

I don't think that many people here think that any kind of bootlegging is fine, but you also can't really be involved in anything related to old games today without supporting some form of copyright infringement. The PRGE had bootlegs sold at most booths which were selling games. Many tables were for businesses which only sold bootlegs. One a$$hole was selling only bootleg Everdrives, without even changing the name. He probably just bought those crappy Chinese knock-offs in bulk and put his ugly labels on them.

I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.

And this is much appreciated, at least by me even if I rarely buy sealed games (which seems to be the main way these deceive). Thanks for the heads up.

Punch

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2016, 01:29:10 PM »
I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.

And this is much appreciated, at least by me even if I rarely buy sealed games (which seems to be the main way these deceive). Thanks for the heads up.

People will sell the bootlegs at the same or at a higher price, that's the whole point of it, sealed, unsealed, loose. If they're doing that with stupid boxsets and still in print homebrews, I don't think this will change with unmarked repros. You sure about that appreciation of yours?

Gypsy

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2016, 01:54:33 PM »
I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.

And this is much appreciated, at least by me even if I rarely buy sealed games (which seems to be the main way these deceive). Thanks for the heads up.

People will sell the bootlegs at the same or at a higher price, that's the whole point of it, sealed, unsealed, loose. If they're doing that with stupid boxsets and still in print homebrews, I don't think this will change with unmarked repros. You sure about that appreciation of yours?

I think you misunderstood. I don't want repros. Ever. So I'm glad for the heads up that some slightly more deceptive ones exist. If it's an open copy, I'll be able to tell and not buy it.

shubibiman

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2016, 05:44:51 PM »
"Pantsu edition". Tobias is a shitbag, but he's very creative ! WTHF !
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ClodBuster

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2016, 10:43:15 PM »
Some PCE games are still available as downloads (Virtual console, etc.), so there's still some money to loose for the copyright holders.

As I said before once or twice, I don't want anything touched by Tobias, even if it comes for free.

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Jibbajaba

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Re: PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2016, 11:16:00 PM »
Also that example real or not is hilarious.

That isn't a quote of a single comment, but rather a pastiche of two or three of them.  The vast majority of the people who comment on my videos are awesome, but there are also a few people who need to pull a plastic bag over their head and go to sleep.