Author Topic: Is this really a PCE???  (Read 1429 times)

Bonknuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3292
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2016, 05:02:47 AM »
PCE is kinda made for samples, so it's kinda irrelevant if the regular channel mode can't get you there IMO.

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2016, 08:19:18 AM »
I didn't hear any sampled bass in that SoR track, only average chip sound bass.

Fighting Run is a good example of how the PCE can do "realistic" bass using samples.
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

fragmare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2016, 02:34:36 PM »
Dude, Speedy from over on the Deflemask forums did a near perfect version of Go Straight from Streets of Rage 2 on the HuC6280.  Apparently, this whole thing about the PC-Engine not doing bass very well is crap... give it some beefy DDA samples, make sure they're cranked up and in the right format, and you're good to go.  So it would seem, anyway.

Here, I've EQ'ed it a bit:
https://soundcloud.com/user-716572978/go-straight-yuzo-koshiro-pc-engineturbografx-16-arrangement-speedy

That kick bass and clap sample, though... mmmmmmm good stuff.

Also, if you go into the DMF file and turn off channel 3, it makes virtually no audible difference, so using this in-game would have been a very real possibility if you had to leave a channel open for sound effects.  The drum samples still sound pretty good at 8-bit/7khz too.  It's almost depressing to think about it haha... if Yuzo had worked for Hudson or NEC Ave.

Hearing this, I'm really not surprised at the examples you gave.  In the right hands the HuC6280 sounds amazing.

right but if you're using a sample to achieve bass, it just proves the point that the regular chip-generating can't really get the right sound otherwise, lol.


Samples for what?  The drums on channel 5?  Who cares!  lol the Genesis game used samples for the drums too.  Besides, the snare is PSG anyway.  ;)

Honestly, the bass track on channel 6 is the bass-iest part of this whole song, and that's all native HuC6280, right there.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:28:47 PM by fragmare »

fragmare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2016, 03:40:02 PM »
You wanna hear your Turbob generating some BASS?  :)  Check this out.  It's an HES file I made after tinkering around with the original DMF file a bit.  I've volume adjusted the channels and added cleaner sounding samples to make it sound a bit closer to the original SOR2 mix when played on Mednafen.  As such, it's optimized for Mednafen, but should sound nice in Ootake or on a real PC-Engine/TurboGrafx-16.  If you have an everdrive or other flash card, you can load it up and see how it sounds.  Maybe someone could even report back here with how it sounds on real hardware.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/qp0m6s

P.S. Crank the volume.  No, seriously, turn it up... all the channels have been volume adjusted relative to each other, so not every channel is at ZOMG MAX VOL ELEVENTYSEVEN
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 11:29:33 PM by fragmare »

Arkhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14142
  • Fuck Elmer.
    • Incessant Negativity Software
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2016, 09:54:08 PM »
What you said sounded like they were using samples for bass.  You said use DDA / samples, so I just figured they were using sampled bass.   I didn't listen, because I was on my phone.   I expect sampled drums, because they almost always sound f*ckin cool.   Sampled bass is like "eh"

After listening, that bass is weak as shit compared to what you can get out of a Megadrive.

PCE just doesn't really do the good Rolandy synth bass thing.  It's not very phat.  This sucks, and I've just learned to accept it. 



I wish PCE could crank out that stuff.

Maybe you all misunderstand what I mean by bass.  I just mean, the bass timbre sucks.   It might be able to create stuff that ends up being thumpy where you can feel it in your sack if you crank it and fiddle with it, but it never really has the right sound quality.

It can do plucked, punchy bass really well.   See: Devil's Crush.  However, even in that regard, the Megadrive's bass sound shits all over the PC Engine.   The rest of the song doesn't, but, the bass sure as hell does.

It really just sucks at trying to make those phat roland-esque synth sounds.   I can't think of any games that do it, and I've never been able to get that bass sound out of it.  It ends up weakening out.

Sampling bass will not give you a good synth sounding bass.  You'll get Amiga sounding bass, or like Fighting Run, you get Seinfeld Slapbass (TM).   Sampled bass is often very rigid, or sounds too percussive.   There's a reason SNES has plucky/slappy bass almost always (See: Squaresoft).

Synthy bass doesn't really jive well with the constant retriggering of samples unless you exclusively use like, a New Order style setup where it's filtered and the ADSR envelope cuts the notes off because it was meant to be sequenced.



but even in this case, it's kind of shrill compared to even listening to a C64 version of Blue Monday.




Fighting Run does better with the envelopey bass that isn't sampled, IMHO.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

I'm a max level Forum Warrior.  I'm immortal.
If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em.

Digi.k

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2262
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2017, 05:22:16 AM »
You wanna hear your Turbob generating some BASS?  :)  Check this out.  It's an HES file I made after tinkering around with the original DMF file a bit.  I've volume adjusted the channels and added cleaner sounding samples to make it sound a bit closer to the original SOR2 mix when played on Mednafen.  As such, it's optimized for Mednafen, but should sound nice in Ootake or on a real PC-Engine/TurboGrafx-16.  If you have an everdrive or other flash card, you can load it up and see how it sounds.  Maybe someone could even report back here with how it sounds on real hardware.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/qp0m6s

P.S. Crank the volume.  No, seriously, turn it up... all the channels have been volume adjusted relative to each other, so not every channel is at ZOMG MAX VOL ELEVENTYSEVEN

It don't quite pack the same punch on real hardware and the drum snares are  more obtrusive and harsher sounding on the pce hardware.

Has much more of a beat on soundcloud

Bonknuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3292
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2017, 10:57:56 AM »
the HES export has a problem where noise channel is twice as loud as it should be. You need to change the noise channel instruments (like snare), when you do Deflemask HES exports.

Quote
I wish PCE could crank out that stuff.
Just sample it, and use my HuPCM driver. You can do a lot more bass type instruments than slap or pluck with sample based synth.

Arkhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14142
  • Fuck Elmer.
    • Incessant Negativity Software
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2017, 11:01:55 AM »
Just sample it, and use my HuPCM driver. You can do a lot more bass type instruments than slap or pluck with sample based synth.

did you not read what I just said about sampled synth bass?  It never sounds as good, hence slappy/plucky being the usually heard sound.

If you could demonstrate some really well sampled Roland-esque bass, I'd be interested.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

I'm a max level Forum Warrior.  I'm immortal.
If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em.

Bonknuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3292
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2017, 11:14:05 AM »
Yeah, not as good - but still not limited to (slap/pluck) is my point. And there are ways around it, to make it sound better (multiple samples within a filter range -> allowing filter control effects via a modulator like a real synth on a per sample basis change).

 I can do this on PCE:

Arkhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14142
  • Fuck Elmer.
    • Incessant Negativity Software
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2017, 11:27:50 AM »
You should show me it on a PCE, not on a YouTube Abelton mixjam.

It's not going to sound that good on a PCE, and you know it.  lol.

Slap and pluck sampling pretty much sounds spot on because they don't really rely on as much sound shaping as a nice, phat sounding synth bass.    PCE can do a plucked bass without sampling perfectly fine.   It's also better without the samples usually. (IMO)

sampling other heavy synth stuff tends to sound like it's missing something, because it is. 

I would love to be able to get some of those filter-modulated bass noises that you can get out of synthy stuff, but, none of this stuff was ever really done on PCE, and as such, has resulted it in not being part of the PCE's sound charm.   The most commonly sampled thing seems to be percussion. 
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

I'm a max level Forum Warrior.  I'm immortal.
If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em.

Arkhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14142
  • Fuck Elmer.
    • Incessant Negativity Software
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2017, 11:59:41 AM »
Also, I mean, this is probably some of the best sampled synth bass:



It's a famous as all f*ck song, and even this song's bass sound lacks compared to what realstuff does, even though they sampled it from a real thing.

For example: SID tunes have phatter bass than Amiga, even when they sample'd a friggin SID to do the bass.   Something just gets lost in translation when you try to fake filtering instead of letting that stuff actually occur, I guess.


Amiga synth bass:


What they were trying to do:



They've lost that wet, drippy, "wewbeweoweb" thing that is at the beginning of the notes when they trigger, and the general phatness isn't really there.

sadly, a Megadrive can do that kind of sound pretty easily.   


EDIT: but what a Megadrive ends up lacking on is leads.  You end up with tinny fart noises, or thin leads.   PCE shits all over Megadrive in this department.

Conclusion:  We should make an OPL4 add on for PCE.



EDIT 2:  I was just thinking some more about samples and remembered how bad the guitars were in Menace on Amiga:



but, that the synths in Blood Money were OK (but the other shit is awful lol.)




but then there's the anomaly that is Ambermoon that convincingly sampled a SID.




I'd be honestly curious what kind of pain in the assery you need to do to get convincing synth bass samples to exist on a PCE
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 12:24:17 PM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

I'm a max level Forum Warrior.  I'm immortal.
If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em.

Arkhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14142
  • Fuck Elmer.
    • Incessant Negativity Software
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2017, 12:35:10 PM »
oh man Wolfchild.

Sorry, I'm basically just fumbling around listening to all kinds of shit I have for various machines to compare them lol

Amiga:


Megadrive:


Wolfchild kind of just sounds better on MD in general, lol.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

I'm a max level Forum Warrior.  I'm immortal.
If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em.

fragmare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2017, 01:38:16 PM »
Here we go, final revision on the HES file.  I've ripped all the actual SOR2 drum waveforms straight out of Gens Kmod and re-mixed all the channels AGAIN to be properly adjusted relative to the drum track.  I'm learning the problem isn't that the PC-Engine can't do decent bass.  It's that the HuC6280 tends to play DDA samples back very quietly.  Any bass-ey samples are easily lost in the other PSG sounds, unless carefully volume adjusted.

As far as doing the twangy-slidey synth bass, yea, of course the Genesis is the king of that.  That's like the trademark Genesis "sound".  It's got an actual FM chip for that.  You can do something adequately close, like the SOR2 track here, and you could even throw in some LFO effects to get you even closer... but it's not going to sound the same.

I'm simply talking about some thumping bass coming out of the PC-Engine that'll make your pecker move a little bit.  And here it is.  Like I said before, crank it, I had to mix it kind of quiet.  Tested in Mednafen and on real hardware.  :)

https://www.sendspace.com/file/yfo9yn

Arkhan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14142
  • Fuck Elmer.
    • Incessant Negativity Software
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2017, 02:36:20 PM »
Here we go, final revision on the HES file.  I've ripped all the actual SOR2 drum waveforms straight out of Gens Kmod and re-mixed all the channels AGAIN to be properly adjusted relative to the drum track.  I'm learning the problem isn't that the PC-Engine can't do decent bass.  It's that the HuC6280 tends to play DDA samples back very quietly.  Any bass-ey samples are easily lost in the other PSG sounds, unless carefully volume adjusted.

As far as doing the twangy-slidey synth bass, yea, of course the Genesis is the king of that.  That's like the trademark Genesis "sound".  It's got an actual FM chip for that.  You can do something adequately close, like the SOR2 track here, and you could even throw in some LFO effects to get you even closer... but it's not going to sound the same.

I'm simply talking about some thumping bass coming out of the PC-Engine that'll make your pecker move a little bit.  And here it is.  Like I said before, crank it, I had to mix it kind of quiet.  Tested in Mednafen and on real hardware.  :)

https://www.sendspace.com/file/yfo9yn


yeah, PCE can definitely hit the frequency that will give you a bumpbumpbump sound, but, I'm not really into that.  I prefer the synth bass to have that nice sound. 

PCE bass is often like, barely audible, and you just sort of feel that it's there somehow because it's thumping, lol


and this isn't to say this SOR2 track sounds like dick, because it doesn't.

It was mostly just a side-topic.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

I'm a max level Forum Warrior.  I'm immortal.
If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em.

Digi.k

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2262
Re: Is this really a PCE???
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2017, 01:02:25 AM »
Here we go, final revision on the HES file.  I've ripped all the actual SOR2 drum waveforms straight out of Gens Kmod and re-mixed all the channels AGAIN to be properly adjusted relative to the drum track.  I'm learning the problem isn't that the PC-Engine can't do decent bass.  It's that the HuC6280 tends to play DDA samples back very quietly.  Any bass-ey samples are easily lost in the other PSG sounds, unless carefully volume adjusted.

As far as doing the twangy-slidey synth bass, yea, of course the Genesis is the king of that.  That's like the trademark Genesis "sound".  It's got an actual FM chip for that.  You can do something adequately close, like the SOR2 track here, and you could even throw in some LFO effects to get you even closer... but it's not going to sound the same.

I'm simply talking about some thumping bass coming out of the PC-Engine that'll make your pecker move a little bit.  And here it is.  Like I said before, crank it, I had to mix it kind of quiet.  Tested in Mednafen and on real hardware.  :)

https://www.sendspace.com/file/yfo9yn

Dumped on my TE and listening via my pce hooked to a bose speaker.

Huge difference and much better sounding.  Thank you!