My very first PC-Engine chiptune! SOR1 St1! (well the first half anyway)

[ParanoiaDragon]

Wow, dope!  I also rip individual channels from soundtracks I want to recreate & load them in Sound Forge, though, mainly to make sure I get the right notes!  LOL  Didn't realise there was a winamp plugin that could control individual channels, I've been recording them one by one!

[Michirin9801]

Ah, I'm sure Fragmare could handle the MML and stuff.   He can handle f*ckin' photoshop.   a DAW wouldn't scare him, I don't think. 

lol.

This sounds better than the other track for sure.    The leads especially.

Lol... thanks?  Photoshop isn't really that complex, once you know the layout, imo.  I dunno about a DAW, but to get things to sound right for this SOR1 tune, I ripped the audio from the Genesis ROM to WAV on a per-channel basis.  Then I'd fire up Sound Forge and load up the resulting WAV files and zoom way in to see what kind of volume envolopes, pitch bends and (if you zoom in super close) the individual repeating waveforms themselves.  Then, since Deflemask lets you basically draw your own HuC6280 volume envelopes and waveforms, I simply put my pixeling skills to use and literally drew what I saw from SoundForge.  Pretty enlightening. 

That's pretty much why I think Deflemask is so much fun to use, with it making PC engine music is so easy!

[fragmare]

Ah, I'm sure Fragmare could handle the MML and stuff.   He can handle f*ckin' photoshop.   a DAW wouldn't scare him, I don't think. 

lol.

This sounds better than the other track for sure.    The leads especially.

Lol... thanks?  Photoshop isn't really that complex, once you know the layout, imo.  I dunno about a DAW, but to get things to sound right for this SOR1 tune, I ripped the audio from the Genesis ROM to WAV on a per-channel basis.  Then I'd fire up Sound Forge and load up the resulting WAV files and zoom way in to see what kind of volume envolopes, pitch bends and (if you zoom in super close) the individual repeating waveforms themselves.  Then, since Deflemask lets you basically draw your own HuC6280 volume envelopes and waveforms, I simply put my pixeling skills to use and literally drew what I saw from SoundForge.  Pretty enlightening. 

That's pretty much why I think Deflemask is so much fun to use, with it making PC engine music is so easy!

Yea, after I did a lot of trial and error and figured out what did what, I figured I'd go right to the source material and literally draw the waves/vol.envelopes i needed and the results were pretty nice.  I'm still tweaking that as we speak. 

Also @ Michirin or anybody else who might know... is there some kind of issue with switching PSG channel 5/6 from sample mode [1701] to note mode [10xx][1700], then back to sample mode [1000][1701]?  When i do that, it sounds awesome in Deflemask playback, but in Mednafen and I'm assuming possibly real hardware as well, after the switch the samples are only about 25% or so of their original volume!  And trying to force it to max with [08FF] does not work.  :/  I was trying to sneak a note from the duplicate square wave lead drum sample channel (6) because there was plenty of room and it didn't clip the sample... but that problem reared it's ugly head.

Anybody experience that problem in Deflemask, MML or otherwise?

[Bonknuts]

Anybody experience that problem in Deflemask, MML or otherwise?

It's a deflemask issue (in the export to hes) because I've never had an issue doing exactly that. Deflemask also has an issue with noise channel volume levels being too loud on hes exports too. You should file a bug report.

[fragmare]

Yea, I confirmed that happens on real hardware, and filed a bug report on their forum.  Looks like somebody already pointed out a similar problem with the Go Straight track i edited earlier... which, sure enough, switches from note mode > sample mode.  They were looking for confirmation it happens on real hardware, so now that they have it, hopefully it'll get fixed soon.

[elmer]

Also, here are the HES and DMF files in case anybody is interested... as before, if you play the HES file in Mednafen, crank it.  Some channels are mixed quieter compared to others, so it will sound right.

HES file: https://www.sendspace.com/file/mrcbq6
DMF file: https://www.sendspace.com/file/r3w93j

Thanks! 

I'm definitely interested in seeing the updates to the .dmf files so that I can make sure that I'll be able to play them back.

I'll start asking you and Michirin9801 (any other musicians that want to chime in) more about that kind of stuff in the "huzak" thread, since things will get a bit technical, and involve the different .dmf tracks that I'm looking at. 

As a programmer-type, I really have to pray that you're being careful with your sample usage, though! 

Thanks!  There are exactly 3 samples being played on channel 6, all ripped straight outta SOR1... the kick, snareclap and cymbal crash.  Everything else is PSG 

Excellent job keeping the usage to a single drum channel. 

The samples look nice-and-short, but I'm afraid that something will eventually have to be done about the sample-rate itself.

For real-world game-style playback on a HuCard, we're going to be limited to 7KHz, 8KHz and 16KHz playback, and the 16KHz comes with a pretty-high CPU cost that would (IMHO) practically limit its use to things like title screens or high-score screens.

But ... on CD hardware, a tune could play a 16Hz sample channel through the ADPCM chip, with almost no CPU cost.

It's nothing to change, or worry about now ... but, as an FYI, it will effect the high-frequency in the samples when I eventually get huzak playing .dmf files.

Lol... thanks?  Photoshop isn't really that complex, once you know the layout, imo.  I dunno about a DAW, but to get things to sound right for this SOR1 tune, I ripped the audio from the Genesis ROM to WAV on a per-channel basis.  Then I'd fire up Sound Forge and load up the resulting WAV files and zoom way in to see what kind of volume envolopes, pitch bends and (if you zoom in super close) the individual repeating waveforms themselves.  Then, since Deflemask lets you basically draw your own HuC6280 volume envelopes and waveforms, I simply put my pixeling skills to use and literally drew what I saw from SoundForge.  Pretty enlightening. 

Wow ... it's fascinating to hear how-on-earth someone goes about deconstructing a track like this, and then recreating it. 

It's been years since I fired-up my copy of SoundForge (or WinAmp for that matter).

[Michirin9801]

Also @ Michirin or anybody else who might know... is there some kind of issue with switching PSG channel 5/6 from sample mode [1701] to note mode [10xx][1700], then back to sample mode [1000][1701]?  When i do that, it sounds awesome in Deflemask playback, but in Mednafen and I'm assuming possibly real hardware as well, after the switch the samples are only about 25% or so of their original volume!  And trying to force it to max with [08FF] does not work.  :/  I was trying to sneak a note from the duplicate square wave lead drum sample channel (6) because there was plenty of room and it didn't clip the sample... but that problem reared it's ugly head.

Anybody experience that problem in Deflemask, MML or otherwise?

The one time I had to deal with switching from samples to PSG and back was in a song that was so huge, memory-intensive and sample-heavy that Deflemask didn't even allow me to export a .hes file >w>
So... Yeah, sorry I can't help you on that one... But I think the other folks have had you on the right path...

[fragmare]

Excellent job keeping the usage to a single drum channel. 

The samples look nice-and-short, but I'm afraid that something will eventually have to be done about the sample-rate itself.

For real-world game-style playback on a HuCard, we're going to be limited to 7KHz, 8KHz and 16KHz playback, and the 16KHz comes with a pretty-high CPU cost that would (IMHO) practically limit its use to things like title screens or high-score screens.

But ... on CD hardware, a tune could play a 16Hz sample channel through the ADPCM chip, with almost no CPU cost.

It's nothing to change, or worry about now ... but, as an FYI, it will effect the high-frequency in the samples when I eventually get huzak playing .dmf files.

Oh, I'm aware the sample rate is really high for "in-game" usage.  that's why when this track is done, i plan on making a "game mix" of it using only 5 channels and 8-bit/7khz samples.  Bet it'll still sound pretty damn good. 

Why?  You planning on making an SoR game on the TG-16? he he 

[fragmare]

The one time I had to deal with switching from samples to PSG and back was in a song that was so huge, memory-intensive and sample-heavy that Deflemask didn't even allow me to export a .hes file >w>
So... Yeah, sorry I can't help you on that one... But I think the other folks have had you on the right path...

Yea, I wouldn't have run into the problem if i had not tried to sneak an an extra PSG note into some empty space on the drum channel.  Hopefully, Delek addresses it soon.  I still put in the note i needed, but one of the duplicated guitar pluck notes had go... <sigh>

[Michirin9801]

The one time I had to deal with switching from samples to PSG and back was in a song that was so huge, memory-intensive and sample-heavy that Deflemask didn't even allow me to export a .hes file >w>
So... Yeah, sorry I can't help you on that one... But I think the other folks have had you on the right path...

Yea, I wouldn't have run into the problem if i had not tried to sneak an an extra PSG note into some empty space on the drum channel.  Hopefully, Delek addresses it soon.  I still put in the note i needed, but one of the duplicated guitar pluck notes had go... <sigh>

Actually, I've just remembered another instance where I had to switch in and out from sample mode, it was in my cover of Night of Fire, when I tried exporting the .hes mode it didn't even play the sample...
And it was just a single 8 KHz sample of the voices saying "Fire!"

[roflmao]

Awesome stuff!

[fragmare]

The one time I had to deal with switching from samples to PSG and back was in a song that was so huge, memory-intensive and sample-heavy that Deflemask didn't even allow me to export a .hes file >w>
So... Yeah, sorry I can't help you on that one... But I think the other folks have had you on the right path...

Yea, I wouldn't have run into the problem if i had not tried to sneak an an extra PSG note into some empty space on the drum channel.  Hopefully, Delek addresses it soon.  I still put in the note i needed, but one of the duplicated guitar pluck notes had go... <sigh>

Actually, I've just remembered another instance where I had to switch in and out from sample mode, it was in my cover of Night of Fire, when I tried exporting the .hes mode it didn't even play the sample...
And it was just a single 8 KHz sample of the voices saying "Fire!"

Yea, you should be able to verify it by doing :

C#4 - -  1000  08FF  1701  <---- Some sample.
-
D#4 - 4  1001  08FF 1700  <------- Any note
-
C#4 - -  1000  08FF  1701 <--------- This sample and all the rest will play back barely audible

Export to HES file then load it up in any recent version of Mednafen.  You'll hear it.  And I've tried manually setting all the bits I could think of, nothing seems to affect it.  It's almost like every tick thereafter, that channel is locked at about [0844] volume or something.

[elmer]

Yea, you should be able to verify it by doing :

C#4 - -  1000  08FF  1701  <---- Some sample.
-
D#4 - 4  1001  08FF 1700  <------- Any note
-
C#4 - -  1000  08FF  1701 <--------- This sample and all the rest will play back barely audible

Export to HES file then load it up in any recent version of Mednafen.  You'll hear it.  And I've tried manually setting all the bits I could think of, nothing seems to affect it.  It's almost like every tick thereafter, that channel is locked at about [0844] volume or something.

That sounds like the volume isn't getting reset after the note plays, and the sample mode is switched back on.

It's either the main volume itself, or the "current envelope volume" ... does deflemask support volume envelopes on samples???

Have you tried adding a channel volume command on that sample to see if it "unsticks" things?

[Bonknuts]

For real-world game-style playback on a HuCard, we're going to be limited to 7KHz, 8KHz and 16KHz playback, and the 16KHz comes with a pretty-high CPU cost that would (IMHO) practically limit its use to things like title screens or high-score screens.

Title screens??? I can do multiple 16khz channels at 50% cpu resource. I can do a lot more than a title screen with 50% cpu resource. Hell, NES games do a lot with only 25% of PCE cpu resource.

[elmer]

Title screens??? I can do multiple 16khz channels at 50% cpu resource. I can do a lot more than a title screen with 50% cpu resource. Hell, NES games do a lot with only 25% of PCE cpu resource.

Hahaha!

Yeah, but you're a "Demo'' guy ... you'd give up half of your HuCard for a few huge samples on the Title Screen.

I'm a "Game" guy ... we're expected to provide actually provide hours of gameplay in the limited ROM space!