Author Topic: Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread  (Read 3165 times)

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2006, 10:38:33 AM »
Pointless but fun.

sunteam_paul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4732
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2006, 10:51:26 AM »
And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.

The PC Engine Software Bible
Quote from: Tatsujin
I just felt in a hole!

malducci

  • Guest
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2006, 11:22:01 AM »
Quote
3 - Vertical scrolling - I have no idea how it works and yes MUSHA uses it to a limited degree. I have seen games with horizontal line scrolling combined with the 8 pixel vertical scrolling to do a limited rotation effect, so I don't know about scrolling being locked to a horizontal line (but then again I am not an authority on how that was achieved). You can see this in quite a few later Genesis games like Gunstar Heroes, Adventures of Batman and Robin, Shinobi III (barely). Hell even Gynough/Wings of Wor used this for the BG(s) in a level and that was a fairly early game, come to remember.


 What I mean is that on a H-sync interrupt, once you write a new value to the vertical or horizontal register of the VDP, that value takes place on the next scanline. So multiple writes would be useless as the last write would be the one taking effect for the next line. Charles MacDonald would know better than I on this one.

 For the rotating effects - I believe Gunstar Heroes (rotating plane) and Contra (big rotating dancing mini Boss) use the equivalent effects as Cotton(PCE) first level boss. It's a tile swapping/building/shifting method, but the effect limits all tiles to 16colors for that layer. The larger the image and more complex effect, the more bandwidth to the VDP is required. The 68000 DMA to the VDP VRAM port is pretty fast(needed for the effect) - faster than the SNES DMA.


Quote
4 - Genesis multi-plane scrolling - This isn't in response to anything, but I'm pretty sure the Genesis can, for example, have layer 1 as the backmost BG layer, then layer 2 overlapping in front of it, and then layer 1 overlapping in front of layer 2, and then layer 2 overlapping in front of layer 1 again, etc etc etc just as long as layer 1 never overlaps itself horizontally and the same with layer 2. I think the 32X worked in a similar way. It imported the graphics from the Genesis and layed 32X graphics over that and then output. However I have seen 32X graphics be between Genesis layers which is pretty amazing considering the layering must be done in analog.


 Yeah, you can set priorities between the BG layers. Thunder Force 4 does this for the first level(ocean level) on the clouds to make it look like there are more than 2 BG layers. The effect is pretty convincing until you try to scroll the fake BG layers vertically independently of the main BG - that's why all BG's move vertically in unison. The SNES has a lot of systems beat with up to 4 independent BG layers, but it handicapped with just 64k VRAM for all those layers.


Quote
Anyone know why'd they do this?


 I'm not sure if this applies to this screen, but simply saying a system can do 64 colors does not imply just that. Infact, the genesis, turbo, snes can only do 16colors per 8x8 tile. The genesis has 4 16color palettes to chose from, the SNES has 8 16color palettes, and the PCE/TG/SGX has 16 16color palettes. Any pixel inside a tile can not access/use a color outside its 16color assigned palette. Technically, the genesis can display 64 colors, but in reality certain 60 or less color backgrounds are not possible on the genesis display with some sort of (limited) palette trick. This excluding shadow/highlight which is taxing to the sprite count/scanline limit or use of second layer BG.

 
Quote
Without some real technical skills it would be impossible to prove either way, but I think its safe to say they aren't real-time since there really wouldn't be any point in it.


 I can say. I've looked at the spites and tiles of the ISO data track and all the polygons are pre-rendered - enemies and bosses. Kind of sad as these could have been nicely hand drawn art instead :?

FM-77

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2180
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2006, 01:17:44 PM »
Quote from: "sunteam_paul"
Yeah, what I mean the whole system v system argument is pretty pointless.


Useless? Yes. Fun? Obviously. Just look at the activity in this thread. Six pages in what, one day?

GUTS

  • Guest
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2006, 03:50:51 PM »
Quote from: "nodtveidt"

Gotta hand it to you though...that escape tactic to save face was classic. Haven't seen that in years, usually people just go down fighting. :P  :lol:


Escape tactic?  You can't tell we were joking from the log Keranu posted?  I thought it was pretty obvious we were f*cking with him, I'm surprised it got to 5 pages with nobody but Obadon having a clue.

Oh and Silpheed DOES use polygons, just play the game and you'll see what I mean.  Go to the option screen and you can view and rotate any enemy or boss in the game that is made of polygons.  The backgrounds and last boss are obviously pre-rendered, duh, but the enemies, player ship, and bosses use polygons.

nodtveidt

  • Guest
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2006, 04:29:08 PM »
I HAVE played Silpheed, and it was always very clear to me that the models were pre-rendered.

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2006, 04:46:04 PM »
GUTs is right on this one.  The backgrounds in Silpheed are all streamed off of the CD.  Why they are not grainy like normal Sega CD video is beyond me, but the CD is constantly accessing and streaming.  The in games models, (ie: player ship, enemy ships, boss, etc) are all real polygons and that is why they are so teeny tiny and run at a different frame rate than the background (anyone besides me ever notice that?).  You can rotate them at will in the options screen and all that nonsense.

What I am not sure about is the intro and cut scenes.  I would assume they are pre-rendered.  However my friend has a CDX that will play the intro all the way up to stage 1.  Stage 1 loads the HUD, then the CDX tries to stream it and the game freezes.  It won't run after that.  The disc is fine.  It works great on my model 1 Sega CD.  But if the CDX has problems streaming video, why does it run the intros so effortlessly?  I also noticed that the intros seem to have a higher sound quality.

Somebody needs to hack the disc and extract the video files so we can see.

Keranu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9054
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2006, 05:17:18 PM »
Quote from: "Black_Tiger"





I played Mega Bomberman for the first time just a few days ago and I didn't even know it was a port of Bomberman '94. What's worse than that title screen is the actual ingame level, it lost a ton of color and detail.

Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2006, 05:32:40 PM »
I honestly would expect no less from Hudson.  They would want to make sure their system looks better.  There really isn't any reason for the Genesis version to look THAT horrible, and it is awful.

Odonadon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 436
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2006, 05:35:58 PM »
Quote from: "sunteam_paul"
And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.


From that statement I have to assume you haven't played the PCE version :)  Yeah it looks alright, but controls like shit - nowhere near as nice as the arcade and Genesis versions.  Collision detection seems to be far more sensitive too.

OD
http://www.turbo2k.net - the truly Turboist of all Turbo sites.

Keranu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9054
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2006, 05:57:09 PM »
Quote from: "Joe Redifer"
I honestly would expect no less from Hudson.  They would want to make sure their system looks better.  There really isn't any reason for the Genesis version to look THAT horrible, and it is awful.

The thought came across my mind and that could be very true, but then again they did a good job with the Lords of Thunder port and even made a completely updated (or is it a whole different game?) version of Dungeon Explorer.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

SignOfZeta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8497
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2006, 06:05:31 PM »
Quote from: "Joe Redifer"
I honestly would expect no less from Hudson.  They would want to make sure their system looks better.  There really isn't any reason for the Genesis version to look THAT horrible, and it is awful.


Well, horrible or not, Mega Bomberman is still one of the MD's most colorful games. Make what you will of that...

T2KFreeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 937
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2006, 06:42:40 PM »
I like Bomberman '94 and Mega Bomberman, It is all a matter of taste I guess. Either way, I like both the Genesis and the Turbo Grafx, but since the Turbo is my favorite system, I cannot get into this as I am biased and it isn't fair because of that.
END OF LINE.

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2006, 06:55:02 PM »
Dammit why do I have to log on every single time I post in this thread?

Anyway Dungeon Explorer on the Sega CD is a totally new game... and not really all that great in my opinion.  As for Mega Bomberman being one of the Genesis' most colorful games... if that screenshot posted above of the first level is any indication of what the rest of the game looks like, I'd definitely disagree.  I've seen Sega Master System games that look more colorful than that.

guyjin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3896
Ranger X: The Official Debate Thread
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2006, 07:03:43 PM »
I wouldn't say mega bomberman looks awful, but it clearly isn't as good as '94.
"Fun is a strong word." - SNK
"Today, people do all kind of shit." - Tatsujin