Author Topic: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?  (Read 2064 times)

Dicer

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2017, 02:17:54 PM »
From the company themselves...

"How about Xbox 360, iOS, and Tiger handhelds!?
A lot of people are learning about Shovel Knight for the first time and there is a vast sea of awesome gaming platforms out there. It is a goal of ours to see Shovel Knight arrive on all sorts of platforms — from consoles to handhelds and maybe even a few things in between? However, we have our hands full with our initial plans. Once we have some surefire details we’ll be sure to tell you all about it!"


Arkhan

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2017, 03:42:49 PM »
The extra hardware (on either version) would only be necessary for a 100% identical port, the PCE could easily handle a game with the same gameplay and even better graphics and music, so long as a few compromises were made... The NES however, absolutely couldn't...
Well, since the game was sort of designed to be a hopped up NES looking game, it's a little unfair to make it seem as if the NES couldn't handle this kind of game.  I'm also not sure why an NES version would need "better graphics and music" since it's a clear homage to NES gaming and would need basically what is presented, with some technical cutbacks due to real NESing.

The NES could pretty much recreate this game if the parallax is dialed down in the same sort of way the PCE would need to be done. 

The game is practically a cracked out Megaman with a Shovelknight dude.   The level layouts are so similar.     You have long stretches that cut to flip screening, with full room bosses.   

Aside from the excessive parallax in some spots, it's nothing we haven't seen on the NES from Capcom or Konami.   You would have to get clever with the background tiles + sprites for some of the bigger things, but, it's not out of the question.

Does the team at ShovelTown have the resources to pull it off?   probably not.    It'd be a dick-crushing undertaking to pull a lot of that off on NES, and for what real reason?   

The only reason outside of technical dickwaving that they'd even need to do it for is if they want to exploit the current retro gaming fad of pandering to as many outlets as possible with any given game.

Seriously.  Idiots will be lining up, throwing money at them like a bunch of drunks on payday at a strip club, so they can have some sort of limited run NES cartridge to stick on their shelf next to the same game they already played and beat.   lol.   It is a sad state of affairs.



Quote
That's why I said re-interpreting the soundtrack would be a better idea...
I'm not sure of your point.  You would have to do this regardless, and I am saying it's OK to have a soundtrack where sound effects will stop a song channel during the duration of the sound effect.

PCE would pummel the soundtrack if it were a CD release.   It'd be funny.

The game unfortunately uses typical euro-esque chiptune stuff with a hint of Capcom percussion, so I got tired of the soundtrack rather fast.

It sounded a little uninspired, I guess.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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ccovell

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2017, 05:15:12 PM »
The game unfortunately uses typical euro-esque chiptune stuff with a hint of Capcom percussion, so I got tired of the soundtrack rather fast.

1) Manami Matsumae contributed to the soundtrack, so it is neither 100% Euro nor 0% Capcom.
2) The intro/title tune has Capcom toms a-go-go.

Michirin9801

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2017, 05:37:09 PM »
Well, since the game was sort of designed to be a hopped up NES looking game, it's a little unfair to make it seem as if the NES couldn't handle this kind of game.  I'm also not sure why an NES version would need "better graphics and music" since it's a clear homage to NES gaming and would need basically what is presented, with some technical cutbacks due to real NESing.
It's not that it needs to have better graphics and music, it's just that if they actually made an NES version (without putting a whole new console inside of the cartridge) the game would most likely be watered down so hard that it wouldn't even be worth bothering with... It's not just the lack of parallax that's the issue, it's that the game uses pretty much all the colours in the NES palette and then some all at once with no regard for palette limitations either in the sprites or in the BG tiles, and then there's the music, okay they might be able to put a VRC6 in the cartridge, so the music COULD end up untouched, but it would add sound-clipping (not like that bothers you)... But in case they ended up unable to use the VRC6, which is a possibility, then the entire soundtrack would have to be redone with just the 2A03, so there goes the 3 best channels and a whole bunch of musical detail, not to mention, the sound-clipping would get worse with just the 2A03...
The gameplay would probably be fine, but the flickering in that game would be other-worldly (unless the sprites were made smaller or at least less wide) they'd have to either cut out some enemies for being too big, or put them on the BG layer and figure out if they can even animate or move them depending on level design, and if they went that route, level design would have to be changed in various spots, oh and, say goodbye to any hint of smooth animation, especially on the enemies...
Pretty much every boss except for Tinker Knight and maybe Plague Knight and King Knight would have to be re-designed, or they'd flicker so much that the fight would be near impossible to see...

I'll admit that a real NES version wouldn't be unplayable, but I know I'd rather have it on a system that can actually do the game justice, unlike the NES...

Quote
That's why I said re-interpreting the soundtrack would be a better idea...
I'm not sure of your point.  You would have to do this regardless, and I am saying it's OK to have a soundtrack where sound effects will stop a song channel during the duration of the sound effect.

PCE would pummel the soundtrack if it were a CD release.   It'd be funny.

The game unfortunately uses typical euro-esque chiptune stuff with a hint of Capcom percussion, so I got tired of the soundtrack rather fast.

It sounded a little uninspired, I guess.
I'm not saying it's not okay to have sound-clipping, what I mean is that a PCE version of the soundtrack should sound more like a PCE soundtrack, and not like NES on-steroids but missing details, also I'd like it a lot better if it turned out A LOT less Capcom-esque...

Putting the soundtrack on CD would be the easiest route, but c'mon what's the fun in having a CD play NES music on-steroids? If the game used the CD for the music, I'd vouch for the soundtrack to be re-created with the YM2151, then just record that and put it on the CD, now THAT would be a good version of the soundtrack!
(I know I wouldn't do it though because I suck at FM and I'm not enough of a fan of the soundtrack or talented enough to attempt to cover it, also it's too different from my style)

Arkhan

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2017, 05:38:48 PM »
1) Manami Matsumae contributed to the soundtrack, so it is neither 100% Euro nor 0% Capcom.

Yeah.  I know.   Her contributions (2 songs?) were great.   I like the melodies and general progressions of a lot of her music.   

I liked bits and pieces of the rest of the soundtrack.   Some songs were great (the campfire song is 100% awesome) , some songs were half great, some songs were just eh.

I wonder really if it's just that the soundtrack is so big.  There were what, almost 50 songs?    You can't win em all.

Regardless though, this is a subjective bit that's influenced by my jaded nature that is the result of that barrage of NES/gameboy chipwank stuff that was flooding the scenes for awhile (and still kind of is).   I won't deny that he did a fantastic job with the overall soundtrack and capturing the NES sound and spirit, and as a whole, I think it's probably one of the best "NES sound" album things out there.






It's not that it needs to have better graphics and music, it's just that if they actually made an NES version (without putting a whole new console inside of the cartridge) the game would most likely be watered down so hard that it wouldn't even be worth bothering with... It's not just the lack of parallax that's the issue, it's that the game uses pretty much all the colours in the NES palette and then some all at once with no regard for palette limitations either in the sprites or in the BG tiles, and then there's the music, okay they might be able to put a VRC6 in the cartridge, so the music COULD end up untouched, but it would add sound-clipping (not like that bothers you)... But in case they ended up unable to use the VRC6, which is a possibility, then the entire soundtrack would have to be redone with just the 2A03, so there goes the 3 best channels and a whole bunch of musical detail, not to mention, the sound-clipping would get worse with just the 2A03...
The gameplay would probably be fine, but the flickering in that game would be other-worldly (unless the sprites were made smaller or at least less wide) they'd have to either cut out some enemies for being too big, or put them on the BG layer and figure out if they can even animate or move them depending on level design, and if they went that route, level design would have to be changed in various spots, oh and, say goodbye to any hint of smooth animation, especially on the enemies...
Pretty much every boss except for Tinker Knight and maybe Plague Knight and King Knight would have to be re-designed, or they'd flicker so much that the fight would be near impossible to see...

I'll admit that a real NES version wouldn't be unplayable, but I know I'd rather have it on a system that can actually do the game justice, unlike the NES...

I think you'd be surprised what kind of BG tile stuff can be used for big enemies.  ShovelKnight already harkens back to that crap with their uses of black backgrounds for the bosses.    The technodrome in TMNT or the Air Marshall's ship at the end of Bucky O' Hare is pretty large.

It's all generally doable.  It's just a question of time/effort/is it worth it really?

They already successfully created an NES homage game here that pretty much plays as tightly as an NES game would, so I don't think they really need to waste their time. 

Quote
Putting the soundtrack on CD would be the easiest route, but c'mon what's the fun in having a CD play NES music on-steroids? If the game used the CD for the music, I'd vouch for the soundtrack to be re-created with the YM2151, then just record that and put it on the CD, now THAT would be a good version of the soundtrack!
(I know I wouldn't do it though because I suck at FM and I'm not enough of a fan of the soundtrack or talented enough to attempt to cover it, also it's too different from my style)

Itd be cool to have a version that is a combination of all kinds of wangly 80s sound hardware.

like Roland/Yamaha synth combinations.   

Beats the goony early 90s studio piano crap that some PCE games ended up with, lol.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 05:49:54 PM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2017, 05:58:24 PM »
Quote
Putting the soundtrack on CD would be the easiest route, but c'mon what's the fun in having a CD play NES music on-steroids? If the game used the CD for the music, I'd vouch for the soundtrack to be re-created with the YM2151, then just record that and put it on the CD, now THAT would be a good version of the soundtrack!
(I know I wouldn't do it though because I suck at FM and I'm not enough of a fan of the soundtrack or talented enough to attempt to cover it, also it's too different from my style)

Itd be cool to have a version that is a combination of all kinds of wangly 80s sound hardware.

like Roland/Yamaha synth combinations.   

Beats the goony early 90s studio piano crap that some PCE games ended up with, lol.
It would indeed, but you know, I've only suggested YM2151 because I'm a big fan of the kinds of sounds they got out of the PC-98 and X68000... In the 90s >w>
PCE chiptunes are still the best to me though, so I'd prefer that...

[Addendum]
I imagine you're gonna say something along the lines of "Oh if you prefer PCE chiptunes why suggest something for the CD?"
Let me just explain myself better: My preferred choice would be PCE chiptunes, but in case the soundtrack had to be redbook for one reason or another, I'd rather have something that's almost as good as PCE chiptunes, but that you can't really do on the PCE soundchip, so "redbooking" the YM2151 would be my go-to choice for that soundtrack...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 06:04:39 PM by Michirin9801 »

Arkhan

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2017, 07:38:54 PM »
why not do PCE + YM2151 hybrid tunes? 

Kinda like how MSX does PSG + SCC + FM and forms megatunes, lol.

the Etrian Odyssey games did a good job of having PC98 style tunes, but also had modern versions.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2017, 04:20:42 AM »
why not do PCE + YM2151 hybrid tunes? 
Oh okay, that would be the best thing ever xD

Arkhan

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2017, 05:22:58 AM »


There's not alot of stuff floating around for MSX that uses it because the SCC was Konami's special chip so it's not like Falcom was releasing games for some other company's cartridge, lol.

But there is some stuff people have tweaked and diddled with.




This Ys stuff is a nice mix.  You get some nice depth and warmth out of the SCC (It's kind of like a PCE)

but this stupid AKB48 song is still the best:


lol

It would sound better if the MSX wasn't stock with an OPLL setup, but, it was cheap, worked, and still sounded nice. 

You could basically combine YM2151 and PCE and get hopped up versions of stuff like this.

I like the NES sound from a nostalgic standpoint since I grew up hearing it every day, but there are better options that I wish more people would use for their shit.


EDIT: 


it all sounds so good.  I am tempted to go sit and rediddle a Shovel Knight tune to this setup.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 05:28:51 AM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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spenoza

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2017, 06:07:09 AM »
I think it we could source YM2151 or similar cheaply enough we should totally put them on new HuCard games.
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Michirin9801

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2017, 06:20:25 AM »
Yeah this is all very nice stuff, but I just think 2OP FM is just a little weak in comparison to the 4OP >w>

I like the NES sound from a nostalgic standpoint since I grew up hearing it every day, but there are better options that I wish more people would use for their shit.
I like NES sound too, but I just think it's way overdone and I'm somewhat sick of it... (I'm particularly sick of VRC6 which everyone and their moms use)
At the very least I wish more people would do Sunsoft-style NES music rather than Capcom-style...

it all sounds so good.  I am tempted to go sit and rediddle a Shovel Knight tune to this setup.
Well why not? Do your best!

I think it we could source YM2151 or similar cheaply enough we should totally put them on new HuCard games.
It would be much easier to play YM2151 tunes on the CD though...

On a side note, Deflemask does support the YM2151+PCM, so I could make a PCE+OPM+PCM hybrid tune by using 2 instances of the tracker, the thing is that the YM2151 alone already has more than enough sound channels for pretty much anything I'd want to cover, so if I were to make a hybrid tune I'd probably just use 2 or 3 FM channels, maybe sampled drums and put all the rest on the PCE...

Arkhan

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2017, 06:46:06 AM »
Well why not? Do your best!

I got enough other crap going on with trying to finish Inferno for MSX2, lol.

but, MSX with non stock stuff also has:
(lol)

you can do OPL4 on MSX, it just requires a cartridge and was never included in a machine off the shelf, so no games really were written for it.

Theres all kinds of non game MSX stuff floating around that is OPL4 out the ass.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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elmer

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2017, 06:49:03 AM »
I think it we could source YM2151 or similar cheaply enough we should totally put them on new HuCard games.

I *think* that we'd need a wait-state on the HuCard bus in order to meet the electrical timings for the YM2151, but I'm not sure.

The YMF289B would be plenty fast-enough and the YMF262 *might* be, and they're less than $2 (including DAC chip) from China.

This was already jokingly-discussed here ...

http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=21695.msg482377#msg482377

I'm sure that TheOldMan or one of the other modern-HuCard guys could put something together ... if they were interested enough.


Yeah this is all very nice stuff, but I just think 2OP FM is just a little weak in comparison to the 4OP >w>

Absolutely ... 2op sucks ... 4op is OK.

But 6op? Absolute Heaven!!! Yamaha SY77/SY99 ... <sigh>


It would be much easier to play YM2151 tunes on the CD though...

Yep.

elmer

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2017, 03:45:16 PM »
It would be much easier to play YM2151 tunes on the CD though...

Yep.


BTW ... for those of us around at the time, approx 8 years before the Playstation 1 ... the incredible
jaw-dropping shock of the PCE wasn't that it could do amazing chiptunes, even ones of the quality of the LoX games.

It was that it could do this ...



... and similar things, while the Genesis sounded like a POS, and the SNES sounded like something from a bad commerical.

This was *real* music.

Nobody else could do it.

The Megadrive CD caught up ... eventually.

But the PCE was almost a generation-ahead in bringing this aspect of gaming to people.

Dicer

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Re: Shovel Knight for the PCE possible?
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2017, 03:59:26 AM »
It would be much easier to play YM2151 tunes on the CD though...

Yep.


BTW ... for those of us around at the time, approx 8 years before the Playstation 1 ... the incredible
jaw-dropping shock of the PCE wasn't that it could do amazing chiptunes, even ones of the quality of the LoX games.

It was that it could do this ...




... and similar things, while the Genesis sounded like a POS, and the SNES sounded like something from a bad commerical.

This was *real* music.

Nobody else could do it.

The Megadrive CD caught up ... eventually.

But the PCE was almost a generation-ahead in bringing this aspect of gaming to people.


Seeing the Ys opening for the first time...f*ck me it was just on another level, that intro will always be among my favorites it just showed gaming on another plane of existence.
f*cking CHILLS