Author Topic: PC Engine Creator Memories  (Read 3016 times)

SamIAm

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2017, 12:12:34 AM »
I wonder what Hiroshi Kudo considered the generation to be? The PC Engine launched 3 years before the Super Famicom and had strong software support until at least and year after the Saturn was released (8 years alone). He might just be remembering things wrong.

In the interest of fairness, the word "generation" doesn't appear in the quote. It's just what I assume he's talking about when he mentions it not surviving in the end. I don't think he would have put it the way he did if he felt that it achieved a graceful and timely retirement.

It would be interesting to find when that was said.

I know you guys like to think of the Hucard system and the CD system as this monolithic thing, but he might have been talking about how the Hucard system nose-dived after the Super Famicom came out. Hudson often described a "core" concept with the PCE, but nobody really cared about the core itself by 1992. I don't think sales of CD games were very good in the years after that, either.

Quote
Although it would have been nice to copy individual save files, it was still very cool to have internal saving at the time and so much more library support for saving that Genesis and SNES, which typically only had game saving in games which absolutely needed it.

You could also save files for as many as 50 games or more. I wasn't trying to get as many as I could when I wound up with 3 pages of saves on my Turbo CD or TurboDuo bitd. But I got to that point before discovering a method to measure their sizes.

I'm sure that if I had a Tennokoe Bank in 1993, I would have mostly just been thankful to have the option. Even now, the weird swapping system is just a minor drawback. Lack of internal memory has only been a problem for me a handful of times, and not wanting to bust out the Tennokoe is partially just me being lazy.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 02:05:40 AM by SamIAm »

Black Tiger

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2017, 03:15:21 AM »
What did seem like a major oversight bitd was the Playstation lacking internal memory. It really was a shock after playing PCE CD, Sega-CD, 3DO and Saturn. The memory cards also had limited space.
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imparanoic

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2017, 12:27:05 PM »
What did seem like a major oversight bitd was the Playstation lacking internal memory. It really was a shock after playing PCE CD, Sega-CD, 3DO and Saturn. The memory cards also had limited space.

but they push the limits on ps1 limited ram, look at tekken 3, vangrant story, metal gear solid, resident evil, the main point, ps1 didn't sell very well in it's first 2 years and had to be price competitive against the saturn which was more expensive, but sold more in asian countries than playstation 1 in it's first 2 years. the fact ps1 was gained significantly from 1997 onwards was to do with price lowering and genre defining games and it's forte, power to process polygons ( unlike the pc-fx or lesser extent sega saturn)

SignOfZeta

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2017, 12:44:24 PM »
Anyone who was unhappy with the PCE's save system was welcome to use what came before which was...anyone? I'm not coming up with anything. Everything saved to the disc/cart that I can remember. There must have been something, right? Use the that. Play games on whatever flawless genius that thing was, whatever it is. Enjoy.

As for AV out. It wasn't left out to save money. That saves nothing. It was left out to *generate* money in the form of Boosters. All a Booster is is a breakout box for what's already in the system. They want composite users to pay more. It's the same reason why a XBox memory card was $65 friggn dollars when it only had $0.50 worth of flash in it. Or even more closely related, the XBox DVD remote...which was just a remote, and cost like $40, even though all it really did was authorize DVD playback. The system already had everything it needed but permission. Ultimately the DVD license fees were paid by all customers, those who needed it or not, but the people who actually bought the remote paid more. It's exactly the same with the PCE AV out.

Consoles only make money when people buy accessories. Sure, you can demand you pay only $300 for a system that costs half a billion to engineer, but you're going to be buying $70 controllers, paying to play online, and getting gouged 8x on storage.

SignOfZeta

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2017, 12:49:19 PM »
What did seem like a major oversight bitd was the Playstation lacking internal memory. It really was a shock after playing PCE CD, Sega-CD, 3DO and Saturn. The memory cards also had limited space.

See: the post I just made. It's not a flaw, it's a feature. How many fashion color memory cards do you have for PC Engine? None, because they never made any. Sony had every color of the rainbow, licensed goods, Pocketstation, etc. PS2 got even more clever by putting token encryption "Magic Gate" on the cards meaning that any unlicensed PS2 memory card was a violation of the DMCA so even the 3rd party ones are licensed and they never got cheap. 8MB of flash in 2004 for $40. Crazy.

SignOfZeta

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2017, 12:51:12 PM »
What did seem like a major oversight bitd was the Playstation lacking internal memory. It really was a shock after playing PCE CD, Sega-CD, 3DO and Saturn. The memory cards also had limited space.

but they push the limits on ps1 limited ram, look at tekken 3, vangrant story, metal gear solid, resident evil, the main point, ps1 didn't sell very well in it's first 2 years and had to be price competitive against the saturn which was more expensive, but sold more in asian countries than playstation 1 in it's first 2 years. the fact ps1 was gained significantly from 1997 onwards was to do with price lowering and genre defining games and it's forte, power to process polygons ( unlike the pc-fx or lesser extent sega saturn)

Also, the mod chip. People don't give $5 mod chips enough credit for moving PS1s. Once the software was free, everyone was very tempted to...switch sides, or whatever.

SamIAm

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2017, 01:31:19 PM »
Anyone who was unhappy with the PCE's save system was welcome to use what came before which was...anyone? I'm not coming up with anything. Everything saved to the disc/cart that I can remember. There must have been something, right? Use the that. Play games on whatever flawless genius that thing was, whatever it is. Enjoy.

You say that like they were inventing the wheel. Backing up data and moving files around was not cutting-edge in 1991 when the Tennokoe Bank came out. The basic logistical problems imposed by moving groups instead of individuals should have been immediately apparent.

The only excuse I can think of is that maybe some of the earliest games would have flipped out if you accidentally put two save files in the same memory. Although they could have potentially avoided that by enforcing a simple naming system and a couple of basic file-system rules.

Again, it's not the end of the world, but the Tennokoe Bank was definitely bad design on Hudson's part.

Winniez

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2017, 07:05:07 PM »
This has propably been posted here already but an interesting read nonetheless about how it was transformed for the west. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/225466/stalled_engine_the_turbografx16_.php

Winniez

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2017, 07:12:07 PM »
As for AV out. It wasn't left out to save money. That saves nothing. It was left out to *generate* money in the form of Boosters. All a Booster is is a breakout box for what's already in the system. They want composite users to pay more. It's the same reason why a XBox memory card was $65 friggn dollars when it only had $0.50 worth of flash in it. Or even more closely related, the XBox DVD remote...which was just a remote, and cost like $40, even though all it really did was authorize DVD playback. The system already had everything it needed but permission. Ultimately the DVD license fees were paid by all customers, those who needed it or not, but the people who actually bought the remote paid more. It's exactly the same with the PCE AV out.

Yeah, that was exactly my point, same with the multitap, it propably saved a little money aswell. Margins are huge in accessories. You can sell something for 20 that cost a dollar to make.
In retrospect the DVD remote was a big mistake from Microsoft. Back then the PS2 straight out of box DVD playback was a huge selling point. I remember people buying PS2s just to use as DVD players. And if they ever wanted to play games they already had a system ready.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 07:16:10 PM by Winniez »

esteban

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PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2017, 11:41:13 PM »
As for AV out. It wasn't left out to save money. That saves nothing. It was left out to *generate* money in the form of Boosters.

Well, I did end up buying a TurboBooster Plus, back in the day.

Why?

MOTURBO

:)
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Black Tiger

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2017, 05:32:05 AM »
I meant that my friends and I really were shocked at the Playstation not saving games out of the box and I saw lots of normal people react when buying a Playstation for FFVII, being told that they couldn't even play the game without also buying a separate memory card.

Some people try to claim that PCE CD games aren't real PCE games because a real game should be fully functional on a base console out of the hox, like most NES & SNES games. If this is such a legitinate concern, it would disqualify all Playstation RPG games.
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SignOfZeta

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2017, 07:01:30 AM »
Yeah, the $299.99 price of the PS was not really truth. It was as actually %10 more than that. This also brings the US 1995 price point only $70 less than Saturn and not $100 as is often said.

SignOfZeta

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2017, 07:07:26 AM »
Anyone who was unhappy with the PCE's save system was welcome to use what came before which was...anyone? I'm not coming up with anything. Everything saved to the disc/cart that I can remember. There must have been something, right? Use the that. Play games on whatever flawless genius that thing was, whatever it is. Enjoy.

You say that like they were inventing the wheel. Backing up data and moving files around was not cutting-edge in 1991 when the Tennokoe Bank came out. The basic logistical problems imposed by moving groups instead of individuals should have been immediately apparent.

The only excuse I can think of is that maybe some of the earliest games would have flipped out if you accidentally put two save files in the same memory. Although they could have potentially avoided that by enforcing a simple naming system and a couple of basic file-system rules.

Again, it's not the end of the world, but the Tennokoe Bank was definitely bad design on Hudson's part.

Moving files was not new, but the PCE was the first console to save to the system (that I can think of) and whatever they had then in 1987 they were stuck with forever. The Bank was years later and designed to reduce some of the headaches but it was still bound by the original design. It was also bound by old tools, a budget, and a release date. Home brewers have done much better, but they did it decades later with multitasking computers and emulators that don't require you burn a rom every time you change something.

SamIAm

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Re: PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2017, 01:25:47 PM »
Moving files was not new, but the PCE was the first console to save to the system (that I can think of) and whatever they had then in 1987 they were stuck with forever. The Bank was years later and designed to reduce some of the headaches but it was still bound by the original design. It was also bound by old tools, a budget, and a release date. Home brewers have done much better, but they did it decades later with multitasking computers and emulators that don't require you burn a rom every time you change something.

The CD-system bios and the games themselves were able to recognize where individual save files started and stopped, so there shouldn't have been any formatting problems. Unless Hudson gave a deadline of "before lunch", whoever made the Tennokoe Bank should have been able to set up individual file copying with literally just a few more lines worth of code, especially if he never wasted time on the silly four-banks structure and just made it one big pot.

The problems caused by copying the entire internal memory are incredibly obvious. These guys worked on computers all day, and yet they screwed up what is essentially a copy/paste tool with the most basic possible GUI. First of its kind or not, that's inexcusable IMHO. This was the same company that made an operating system for the X68000 in 1986, for crying out loud.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 01:29:51 PM by SamIAm »

esteban

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PC Engine Creator Memories
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2017, 10:32:28 PM »
Moving files was not new, but the PCE was the first console to save to the system (that I can think of) and whatever they had then in 1987 they were stuck with forever. The Bank was years later and designed to reduce some of the headaches but it was still bound by the original design. It was also bound by old tools, a budget, and a release date. Home brewers have done much better, but they did it decades later with multitasking computers and emulators that don't require you burn a rom every time you change something.

The CD-system bios and the games themselves were able to recognize where individual save files started and stopped, so there shouldn't have been any formatting problems. Unless Hudson gave a deadline of "before lunch", whoever made the Tennokoe Bank should have been able to set up individual file copying with literally just a few more lines worth of code, especially if he never wasted time on the silly four-banks structure and just made it one big pot.

The problems caused by copying the entire internal memory are incredibly obvious. These guys worked on computers all day, and yet they screwed up what is essentially a copy/paste tool with the most basic possible GUI. First of its kind or not, that's inexcusable IMHO. This was the same company that made an operating system for the X68000 in 1986, for crying out loud.

:)

IN DEFENSE OF TENNOKOE BANK

(1) I think you are overlooking an important factor: ease of use for all consumers, including average/dumbass/child.

For mainstream consumer goods, it's much better to design a system that a dumbass/child can understand.

(2) Copying en masse  = dead simple, fast, efficient and the operation you are performing is immediately obvious. Period.

Engineers and average users know that the contents of a bank will *always* fit when swapped back and forth between HuCARD and  real hardware—dead simple conceptually and in actuality.

No prompts/messages warning about files/banks being "too large" to move/transfer.

(3) I can't help but think that engineers/designers were not just worried about users *actually* losing data...but also with users *seemingly* losing (or losing track of) data. Manually managing files is tedious, boring, annoying and potentially quite messy, confusing. You can lose track of stuff. Users will absolutely do silly things when (a) given full access and (b) system allows for flexibility/complexity. Allowing users to f*ck things up only frustrates the customer (the *last* thing Hudson/NEC want to do).

(4) I don't disagree with you: Hudson *should* have included advanced file management tools for the "power user", but these advanced tools should have been "hidden" from the average dumbass/child. It's OK if most folks never used the advanced tools. 

ASIDE: If file management with mouse+keyboard still sucks today on modern PC OS (and we have benefit of modifier keys to select multiple files at once), individual file management would be cumbersome on PCE with controller, menus, message boxes, etc. Every operation would take many steps and require many confirmations. And you would grow numb to warnings from the incessant dialog boxes.

:)



 FURTHER THOUGHTS...

The design decisions to deliberately limit how a user manipulates/manages files has interesting implications:

(a) "Bank" as a metaphor for time. I can't help but love thinking about how a "bank" can represent an era of time (what *constellation*—group— of games was I playing two years ago?) It's a nice *group* snapshot of a time period.

(b) "Bank" as a metaphor for "comrade"...this is when you help out/play with a friend/family member (especially when they have their own console, separate from yours). When you copy/swap files, you are capturing a unique piece of their gaming life. Again, it might not actually be a snapshot of a single person's gaming life...but rather *every person* who uses the damn console (siblings, parents, yakuza, etc.)

(c) "Bank" births a new Prank. Are there any anecdotes about people pulling pranks on unsuspecting family/friends by "deleting" save files?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 10:59:31 PM by esteban »
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