Author Topic: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin  (Read 3439 times)

spenoza

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2017, 02:16:20 AM »
Fragmare, if you have the passion to do this, then you may be able to see it through. I think this is really about semantics. I think your argument that determination is enough is being read by others here as, "if someone would just work harder this would get done," and they naturally see this as a flawed assertion. You clearly have a passion for your project, and passion is a motivator far more powerful than simple determination ("Just work harder, dude!").

You can't rely on someone else to have the same passion about your project that you do. That doesn't mean you can't rely on others to help you make it happen, but in hobbyist scenes like this where everyone has a home life and their own projects, you can't rely on someone else to carry the torch for your project. When you're talking about programming an entire game, no, you can't rely on someone else to program your game for you, not unless you can make them care about your game more than their own or anyone else's.

And given the size of the hobbyist scene for this underdog console, I think there are quite a few projects that have gone to completion. The PCE homebrew scene is actually relatively productive.
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fragmare

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2017, 03:25:23 AM »
Fragmare, if you have the passion to do this, then you may be able to see it through. I think this is really about semantics. I think your argument that determination is enough is being read by others here as, "if someone would just work harder this would get done," and they naturally see this as a flawed assertion. You clearly have a passion for your project, and passion is a motivator far more powerful than simple determination ("Just work harder, dude!").

You can't rely on someone else to have the same passion about your project that you do. That doesn't mean you can't rely on others to help you make it happen, but in hobbyist scenes like this where everyone has a home life and their own projects, you can't rely on someone else to carry the torch for your project. When you're talking about programming an entire game, no, you can't rely on someone else to program your game for you, not unless you can make them care about your game more than their own or anyone else's.

And given the size of the hobbyist scene for this underdog console, I think there are quite a few projects that have gone to completion. The PCE homebrew scene is actually relatively productive.

If people want to misconstrue what I say and get offended in the process, then I can't really help that.  I'm not saying somebody "just needs to work harder".  I'm saying somebody needs to show some f*cking RESOLVE, stick with the goddamn project when they say they are going to, and not flake out and go MIA, then come back later and start 28 other projects lol.  And it has become clear, long ago, that the only person that's going do that is ME

Trust me... any future projects I might start, I will make it a point to NOT ask for help from ANYBODY here for ANYTHING.  Why?  Because, from my experience, no... you CAN'T rely on help from others.  Not in this scene, anyway.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 03:48:31 AM by fragmare »

spenoza

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2017, 03:56:29 AM »
I can understand how your own experiences have lead you to feel that way. But I'm glad SamIam and Elmer don't share that attitude, because their partnership is very close to giving us translated Xanadu I and II. They have found a great working relationship, which is awesome. Sounds like Rover and Sarumaru have found that as well. I hope you get your Xymati, because it looks like it might be awesome. But you're basically throwing shade on the entire community, despite evidence that the community isn't fundamentally broken. You've had some bad experiences, but others have not.

(And yes, you absolutely CAN help how people construe your words. What you meant to say is that you don't CARE how people misconstrue your words.)
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fragmare

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2017, 04:15:47 AM »
I can understand how your own experiences have lead you to feel that way. But I'm glad SamIam and Elmer don't share that attitude, because their partnership is very close to giving us translated Xanadu I and II. They have found a great working relationship, which is awesome. Sounds like Rover and Sarumaru have found that as well. I hope you get your Xymati, because it looks like it might be awesome. But you're basically throwing shade on the entire community, despite evidence that the community isn't fundamentally broken. You've had some bad experiences, but others have not.

(And yes, you absolutely CAN help how people construe your words. What you meant to say is that you don't CARE how people misconstrue your words.)

Yay, good for them.  *thumbs up*   And you're right, I definitely don't care.

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2017, 06:05:59 AM »

shubibiman

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2017, 06:50:22 AM »


Me waiting for somebody to code Xymati lol


Hey ! That's me waiting for the french translation of dead of the Brain 1 & 2 to be implemented and finally released !
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Arkhan

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2017, 06:56:05 AM »
The thing is, steadfast determination and "I'm going to chip away at it and get it done" with regards to a project like that is a bit naive sounding. 

Especially when you also say things like "I am going to learn more HuC6280 asm".   

There's more to making a game than "learning asm" for whatever platform the game is on.   You have to know how to program.  When you are capable of that, the language in question is something that then just becomes a matter of learning it.    You can know 6502 assembly in and out and still have no goddamn clue how to write a game.   

The bulk of the Commodore 64 library will demonstrate that point for me.

I'm not sure how much programming you know that is non 6502 based that will be able to be applied.   

I am also not sure what other game programming and design experience you have.   

It's a lot of work.  You're talking about making a Musha caliber game by yourself with what I assume is basically no programming experience on a platform where the work is already harder because it lacks another BG plane, so you have to resort to more effort to get the screen effects you want.

Fortunately, you won't have to write a sound engine since we already did that for you.   

You won't be chipping away at it til it's done.   You'll be chipping away at it until you realize the foundation is goony, and then you have to start redoing everything. 

and then you'll probably do that again.

maybe again. 

"chipping away at it" is how you do art or music because it's easy to change as you go.   

It's not a great way to write software.


If you do want to write games, you should start out with simpler crap first and go from there.   


Starting with a Compile or Konami caliber thing by yourself out the gate is a great way to join the ranks of "didn't get done" stuff.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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fragmare

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2017, 09:38:39 AM »
The thing is, steadfast determination and "I'm going to chip away at it and get it done" with regards to a project like that is a bit naive sounding. 

Especially when you also say things like "I am going to learn more HuC6280 asm".   

There's more to making a game than "learning asm" for whatever platform the game is on.   You have to know how to program.  When you are capable of that, the language in question is something that then just becomes a matter of learning it.    You can know 6502 assembly in and out and still have no goddamn clue how to write a game.   

The bulk of the Commodore 64 library will demonstrate that point for me.

I'm not sure how much programming you know that is non 6502 based that will be able to be applied.   

I am also not sure what other game programming and design experience you have.   

It's a lot of work.  You're talking about making a Musha caliber game by yourself with what I assume is basically no programming experience on a platform where the work is already harder because it lacks another BG plane, so you have to resort to more effort to get the screen effects you want.

Fortunately, you won't have to write a sound engine since we already did that for you.   

You won't be chipping away at it til it's done.   You'll be chipping away at it until you realize the foundation is goony, and then you have to start redoing everything. 

and then you'll probably do that again.

maybe again. 

"chipping away at it" is how you do art or music because it's easy to change as you go.   

It's not a great way to write software.


If you do want to write games, you should start out with simpler crap first and go from there.   


Starting with a Compile or Konami caliber thing by yourself out the gate is a great way to join the ranks of "didn't get done" stuff.



Yea, well, i've stuck by Xymati up to now.  I don't see any reason to abandon it at this point.  And I, quite honestly, don't care if you (or anybody else) do or don't think it'll work out.  If i have to release Xymati for FREE and then keep updating it with new ISO versions from time to time... then that's what i'll do.  If I want to make a minor tweak or re-write the entire foundation of the game, then so what?  My point is, I'd be better off just teaching myself how to code HuC6280 than waiting on somebody else to code it, because that way, it *might* get finished before i die of old age... because i'm tellin' ya... if i keep waiting on these f*ckers around this place to put their money where their mouth is, then i really WILL be waiting until i'm a dusty skeleton..................
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 10:01:01 AM by fragmare »

spenoza

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2017, 09:56:16 AM »
Well, then, good luck, sir! Your art for Xymati looked pretty good, and I like the tracks you've been creating in Deflemask. There are 3 sound engines available to use, so there's some work already done as well. Chris Covell has some good information stuff for getting started with HuC and the PCE. I look forward to following your progress.
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shubibiman

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2017, 06:25:48 PM »
I agree that Ximaty and Gunjin should be released. It's a shame all the talents gathered on these forums can not cooperate in order to make badass PCE games.
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touko

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2017, 09:15:30 PM »
I was thinking that xymati was on the frozen utopia 's hands  :-k

Xymati or gunjin are very long to do, i 'am very interested but afraid of not being able to finish it because of my current projects(at least one) and i do not want to disappoint the people waiting this games, once again,plus i'am working on SGX only now .
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 09:23:14 PM by touko »

elmer

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2017, 09:30:21 AM »
I'm really sorry if I sounded too negative and patronizing or whatever.  :oops:

I think that Spenoza pretty-much summed up the actual point that I was wanting to get across.


Some kind of community GitHub like system COULD work, if there's a person directing the show and deciding what to keep/trash.

The "Who gets to be God?" question will always tear those things apart, IMHO.

And while music and art are kinda piecemeal things, where people can leave and be replaced, you'll find that programming a game, particularly if you're using assembly-language for performance, isn't that way.

It's not just a matter of documenting things properly, as much as it is the sheer amount of things that a programmer is considering and juggling in their head when they're bringing together a whole bunch of different systems into the cohesive-whole of a game.

I saw a number of fully-commercial very-expensive projects go "boom" and collapse BITD because the programmer bailed-out or just couldn't take the pressure.

Another programmer can't just come in an pick-up-the-pieces, there's just too much in the way of implicit design-choices and design-implementation that aren't obvious.

The amount of time that it would take for another programmer to become comfortable with the existing code is often longer than it would take to just start everything from scratch again.


Trust me... any future projects I might start, I will make it a point to NOT ask for help from ANYBODY here for ANYTHING.  Why?  Because, from my experience, no... you CAN'T rely on help from others.  Not in this scene, anyway.  ;)

I'm sorry that you're so frustrated at this point, and truly, nope you can't rely on someone to come-along and just slot into your plans and have the same passion for your project as you do.

Learning to program yourself so that you can work on it, is definitely an option. It'll take you a long time to gain the necessary proficiency, but it can be done ... with enough determination passion.

But let me tell you ... having a partner, that you can rely on, and who will give you feedback as you push each-other to improve things, would actually be more "fun", and be less-likely to just fizzle-out and fade-away.

Finding the right teammate is a terribly difficult thing, especially if you don't know each-other and see each-other in real-life.

And when you do, eventually, find that teammate, at some point in the process, you'll have to loosen your control on the whole thing and let it become "our" project instead of just "your" project, or you'll end up losing them.


Yea, well, i've stuck by Xymati up to now.  I don't see any reason to abandon it at this point.

Of course you should stick by Xymati, you've put too much good-work into it to abandon it, and I don't see anything in it (from what little I have seen), that shouldn't be achievable on the PCE.

But it does look like it'll take a reasonable amount of programming-talent to make it work properly.


I was thinking that xymati was on the frozen utopia 's hands  :-k

OldRover said this, back in January ...


I was working with Fragmare on Xymati but it was requiring a level of competence above and beyond what I was capable of at the time. I just didn't have the skills to program all the stuff it required. That's not an issue nowadays, now it's just time. Maybe it's something that can be picked up again in the future.

That's a wonderfully-honest and humble admission that he mistakenly (but with the best will and determination in the world) took on something that was over his head at the time, and had to put it on the back-shelf while he improved his skills.

So now it's a matter of timing, and he's snowed-under with other commitments.

I understand how that's terribly frustrating to Fragmare ... but it's kind-of-life, and it seems one heck of a lot better than EsperKnight's coming along here, starting half-a-dozen different projects at once, getting folks over-excited, and then just letting them fade-away in silence when they became too much for him.


I mean, i know you had kind of openly offered to maybe code Xymati when you have the time.  And believe me, you're more than welcome to.  Knock yourself out, dude.  But, quite frankly, I've heard it all before and I don't really know you all that well yet, so I just kind of file it under the "Yea ok, we'll see..." folder.  ;)  No offense.

Absolutely no offense taken!  :wink:

I think that if you look back at my PMs, I said that I was registering an interest, and that we should talk seriously when I'm free of my current commitments.

I hate to see all of the work that you've done just sitting there unused ... but that's far from a promise.

If/when I promise, I'll see it through to the end.

But I would have to be sure that I can share your passion determination whatever in seeing it get done.

That's pretty much the same as I said to NightWolve recently when I found out that he'd suggested my name to Chris for the Battle Princess Madelyn project.

It looks somewhat interesting ... but unless I can actually feel that personal passion for the end-product, then I'm not going to get involved and mess around with people's hopes-and-dreams.

As I've mentioned to you ... I don't want to work on anything that doesn't try to be an almost-professional project that at-least-attempts to raise the bar in some way over what's out there.

Otherwise, I feel that my time is better spent working on tools to help out others, and on translations that make some of the best of the old professional Japanese games fully-accessible to an English-speaking audience.

P.S. Like touko, my passion when it comes to creating something new, is far more oriented towards the SGX rather than the PCE.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 11:23:45 AM by elmer »

Michirin9801

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2017, 07:52:32 PM »
Reading what this thread has evolved into makes me glad that I've got help with my Mega Drive project...
But it also makes me wish the PCE homebrew scene wasn't so small, and makes me wonder whether or not I'll get lucky when I start a PCE project, or if said project is gonna end up on just the regular PC...

touko

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2017, 08:48:02 PM »
Quote
I'm sorry that you're so frustrated at this point, and truly, nope you can't rely on someone to come-along and just slot into your plans and have the same passion for your project as you do.
I can't blame fragmare's frustration, and i understand his point .
Some of us (me included) blame the scene to not have any pixel artist, and when a guy come with a complete set of GFX, there is nobody to take that and say "ok we'll make a game"(even if it takes so long to do),paprium for the genesis, was not made in a week .

Quote
But it also makes me wish the PCE homebrew scene wasn't so small
Is not so small, but completely disorganised, each of us works in his corner because (maybe i'am wrong) we are so different in our respective approach of how to code a game/demo,and work together is really difficult .
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 08:55:59 PM by touko »

spenoza

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Re: Hypothetical PCE port :: Flame Zapper Kotsujin
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2017, 03:24:12 AM »
The Genesis is also just about the easiest of the 16-bit consoles to develop for. The 68k CPU is a breeze to do basic programming for. The PCE is a niche platform in the west and is harder to develop for than the Genesis. Notice there's only so much SNES homebrew (for much the same reason). I'd say the PCE scene is almost competitive.
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