WTB FM Towns Marty

[SuperDeadite]

Hahaha! 

It's rather cheating to point to that game, that only runs on the super-expensive-and-rare 1990-released MSX Turbo-R as an indicator of MSX games! 

As a geek, I like the idea that you can run MSX stuff on an FPGA for far-less-cost than buying all of the original-hardware ...

https://www.msx.org/wiki/One_Chip_MSX
https://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/revival/one-chip-msx-improvement-project?page=95
http://retroramblings.net/?page_id=917

Just an example of what MSX games can be like.  99% of people just look at the old MSX1 Gradius games and go "Look at that choppy scrolling, screw that."  Honestly MSX Gradius 1 is more fun the NES Gradius despite the scrolling imo.

Also, these days I assume OP would probably try out MSX via emulation before buying one.  So the required hardware isn't all that important until he gets his feet wet.  In fact I think emulation should be a must for anyone interested in MSX, as pure MSX1s are really cheap, but a total waste of money.  2+ is what I'd generally recommend.  Though I do love my Turbo-R.

[Arkhan]

OneChip MSX is a piece of crap, and it's rapidly become too expensive to bother because they weren't mass produced.   You can get a real machine for less than a OneChip.   A solid MSX machine that does what is required can be purchased for <200$.  FM cartridges run around 40$. 

There's a handful of issues with a OneChip, so you're better off just emulating if you don't want to buy a real one.

some other great MSX games that aren't Konami ones:

MSX1 (yeah, the scrolling is doofy at times.  Looks worse on YouTube than on a real one):

  This is Turrican done right.

This is the strangest action RPG I've ever played

  It's weird but fun

  It's Gulkave, and look, it scrolls smooth!

  Better than the FDS one.

Another weird action RPG

There's also the Ninja Kun games like the NES ones, some other shooters, and weird arcade style games.

MSX2:

Yes

Yes

hnggggg (Play Super Laydock on MSX1 also)

and Runeworth's soundtrack just because

Basically, MSX hits this weird sweet spot where it's not balls to the wall like the X68000, but it's not all goobery like a PC-6001 or something.    You get those quirky one off action arcade games from the early 80s, and then you start getting all the more elaborate stuff.

Xak, Fray, Ys, Sorcerian, Emerald Dragon, Legend of Heroes and Burai are all there too!


I think getting into that is probably more fun than a Marty/FM-Downs.   You get some unique stuff, and also get to sample Konami's starting point.     

[elmer]

Also, these days I assume OP would probably try out MSX via emulation before buying one.  So the required hardware isn't all that important until he gets his feet wet.  In fact I think emulation should be a must for anyone interested in MSX, as pure MSX1s are really cheap, but a total waste of money.  2+ is what I'd generally recommend.  Though I do love my Turbo-R.

Absolutely! Emulation is the best way to get a feel for the machine before spending a load of money.

I sort-of-lust-after a Turbo-R, just for the souped-up R800 but, for some reason, I can't  summon up enough passion for the platform to pay the sort of price that those are selling for.

OneChip MSX is a piece of crap, and it's rapidly become too expensive to bother because they weren't mass produced.   You can get a real machine for less than a OneChip.   A solid MSX machine that does what is required can be purchased for <200$.  FM cartridges run around 40$.

The official OneChipMSX is stupidly-expensive, and runs an old-and-limited FPGA.

You do know that the FPGA code has been ported to a whole-host of other less-limited FPGA boards since then, don't you, and that people have been fixing and improving it?

If you hang around eBay at the end of a University semester, you can usually pick up an Altera DE1 or DE2 board for $100-$150, and that'll give you a fully-spec'd and expanded MSX2+, with lots of MSX add-on-cartridges included in the FPGA code.

But, it'll take a little bit of technical know-how to set up.

And, at-the-end-of-the-day, it still won't be a "real" MSX machine, so it won't give you that wonderful feel that an old machine has.

I get that.

Real-hardware is still the way to go if you have a passion for the system.

As for prices, I guess that you're talking MSX2 level specs, and not MSX2+ (which seem a lot more expensive)?

Is there much reason for people to look for an MSX2+ instead of an MSX2?

[Arkhan]

The SCC MegaFlashROM SD cartridge with an MSX2 can provide that sort of thing on a real machine.  It even emulates floppies now, so that's nice.

MSX2+ are not that much more expensive if you look in sane places.   I sold an entire boxed Sony model (HBF1-XV, the best Sony MSX2+ on the market) with a repaired FDD and controller for 400$.   

If it has no box and is just loose, a 2+ should be 250 or less if it works right.   

MSX2+ isn't a necessary purchase.   The big sell point is that the MSX-MUSIC (FM) is built into the board, so you don't need an FM-PAC in a cartridge slot.

but, FM-PACs are so cheap, and for normal usage of the machine, having a cartridge installed doesn't matter.   You have two slots. 

One for games, one for FM PAC.    I installed mine in the back slot of my Toshiba HX-34 and don't even notice that it's there.   Games go in the front slot.

It has a better video chip, and more VRAM, but functionally doesn't amount to jackshit since most games target MSX2 with FM.   Games like SpaceManbow use the 2+ video chip for smooth scroll, but it scrolls smooth without it.  It just does it differently.

2+ gives you this weird ass high color mode, also.  But, nothing really targets it. 

This is why I just shrugged and sold my 2+.    an MSX2 with floppy drives and an FM cart is perfect.

I have a Turbo R in the box.  It's on the shelf doing nothing.  I only take it out if I want to play with MIDI stuff.

[xelement5x]

Can't you mod the MSX2 to be like a 2+ with a bit of hackery and knowhow?

[Arkhan]

Yeah, you can add more ram/v9958, but I don't think its worth it really.  Finding a functional MSX2+ if you really need one isn't too complicated.   Sony, Panasonic, and Sanyo all made models. 

Most people don't actually benefit from a 2+ (The amount of games that utilize the 2+ video chip = small, and they work without a 2+ as well), and basically nobody benefits from a TurboR.

There are people who simply have to have one with all this stupid shit attached.

and then they fire up games that are for MSX2 + FM, and I wonder wtf they're doing.

TurboR only had a few actual games for it.  At the time, if you were using a TurboR, it wasn't for games.   It was for "this is my actual computer that I do things on.".

Basically every westerner buying old JP computers forgets this crazy detail where the machines had purposes outside of playing games.

[elmer]

TurboR only had a few actual games for it.  At the time, if you were using a TurboR, it wasn't for games.   It was for "this is my actual computer that I do things on.".

Basically every westerner buying old JP computers forgets this crazy detail where the machines had purposes outside of playing games.

Yep, a lot of folks that weren't around at the time, just associate computers with the IBM PC and its clones.

But the IBM & the clones were really expensive in the 1980s and early 1990s, and small businesses and mom-and-pop stores could (and did) keep Z80 CP/M-capable machines alive in some marketplaces for a while.

One thing that helped that was the dramatic drop in the selling price of older-but-still-capable versions of 1970s/early-1980s business CP/M apps as their developers moved the products over to the IBM PC.

This came up in a thread on AtariAge recently about home/game/serious uses of the 8bit computer generation.

Here's one guy talking about the Amstrad Z80 computers that were popular in the UK and Europe.

I'm not surprised to hear that the MSX computers had a similar other-life in Japan.


Were Atari 8 bit, C64 and others mainly gaming machines?

In the Amstrad range, you can distinguish between the 464 and 6128.
The 464 with it's built-in tape player and cheaper price was certainly more targeted to gamers and home use. You can also consider the bright colored keyboard :
 

 
On the other hand, the CPC 6128, with double the RAM (128 Ko, hence the name) had a more professionnal looking keyboard, came with a floppy drive (3" ) and was shipped with a CP/M floppy by default, hinting that it was meant to be used as a more professionnal machine.
 

 
And certainly enough, it did found a way into the industrial world :
 

(in the BMW Museum, Schneider relabeled CPC 6128)
 
Note the both the 464 and 6128 offer a 80 colum, high resolution mode (640*200 pixels) makign them well suited for text editing.
 
Amstrad will then follow the same "simple, all in one" formula and spawn was is certain the most famous CP/M machine ever made, the Amstrad PCW :
 

 
The PCW was sold between 1985 and 1995! and sold 8 millions machines. The first version had one floppy drive and 256 Ko of RAM, the latter 512 Ko of RAM and two 3" then 3,15" floppy drives.
 
It came with Locoscript for word processing and file management, and you could boot on CP/M from the floppy.



Unlike the CPC, the PCW display was in permanent 80 column/640*200 mode and had no way to connect an external color or B&W monitor.
 
And despite the lack of a proper sound chip, there are several PCW games.

[Arkhan]

Yeah most people jumping onto the old-computer-scenes mostly just fire the crap up to play games and post pics online to obtain likes/back pats.   They refer to old machine as "consoles".   It drives me nuts.

They don't even seem to consider or understand that at one point in time, people were doing homework, printing stuff out, managing their money, and other crap on them.   Programming, learning, making music.   All kinds of stuff.  With the MSX in particular, it's really interesting to see how much software was out there for "doing stuff".   I have a modem, regular printer, and thermal printer here for it.   I could be a tard and sit there printing stuff out on it. 

The reason there's so many available to purchase now is because those people traded them in to get the most current machines for daily life. 

I've seen people bitch at others for emulating old machines, saying oh you're not legit.  You don't have a real setup.

It's like wow.  The only reason you even have one to play with is because someone who grew up with it (read: is more legit than you) sold it to make room for the latest stuff. 

People lording over Japan's sloppy seconds just for gaming is pretty mental.   Emulate this stuff and see if you really enjoy it enough to get a real one.   In some cases, like PC 98, emulating is better anyways.  Those machines are a pain in the ass.

Anyway, don't buy a Marty.    It's nothing special compared to anything more common.  Save the money/effort/space for something more unique. 

[Gypsy]

That post made me hard.

They are computers. A computer is a computer is a computer. Just emulate them if your actual goal is playing the games. And really I'm not just being a blowhard here (though maybe a little bit). I have a bunch of old PC games that I accumulated during my youth, or dirt cheap in lots or w/e. You know what I do when I want to play them? I install the GOG version I bought where applicable. It's much easier than dicking with the old ass laptop I have that I could play them on and I certainly have no desire to try to source old PC parts to build an older tower. Certainly not at Ebay rates on working and good quality old parts. It's too bad there isn't a Japanese equivalent of GOG.

It would be neat as a novelty to have various Japanese computers if they were cheaper no doubt, but paying hundreds for a working unit when I can just play on my current PC? Pass.

[Arkhan]

The "real hardware" thing for a PC is a bit goofy to me, honestly.   

like, what real hardware do you actually need?  The screen (read: a generic CRT)?  The keyboard?   

You get those when emulating.   I think a lot of that is people just being a bit stupid.    I grew up on DOS.   The f*ck if I want to dick off with that nonsense anymore.   DOSBox automagically does the same thing.   I can even pop my old games in and install them in DOSBox on a brand new machine.   I just pop a USB floppy drive in and go.

I completely understand wanting a nostalgic trip if you're busting out Amiga or C64 crap from your youth... but "i need the real hardware feel" for a computer you didn't grow up with, from a foreign country?   

Get over yourselves.  You don't know what you actually need.   

A lot of that old real hardware is a pain, or it's finicky or impractical now.   I've talked to Japanese people who chuckle at people flailing trying to get a PC9801 to work just to play games for a bit.  Those things are a pain in the ass.  They're HUGE.  Clunky.   It's like trying to get a functional 486 or something now with all the DOS jive.   Nobody actually enjoys that.

If I didn't do MSX development, and didn't use the one with the piano attachment for music creation, I wouldn't even own real ones of those probably.   

If I just wanted to fire up some games and play them, an emulator is a lot better.  Granted, MSX is, in all honesty, the most reliable old computer I have ever touched, so buying them and using them is relatively straightforward.    You don't get that kind of experience if you buy a bulk lot of C64 stuff.   C64 disk drives tard out if you breathe wrong.

None of those computers had a standard controller, either.   It's a much different case than the console argument, I think.

Those had a specific controller.   It has a specific feel. 

It turns out most keyboards all basically feel the same.  Back in the day, there were like 900 different keyboard/mice/controllers in use.   There's no specific "real feel" for that stuff. 

Hell, I got an adapter to use megadrive and playstation controllers on my MSX.    There's an adapter for saturn pads too, but it was sold out.   Being able to use a PS1 controller on an MSX is awesome though, so I'll take that.

The only real perk to real hardware for something like an MSX is the keyboard mapping.   Keys on the MSX don't exist on a new keyboard, so the mapping is strange.   You have to sit and figure out where keys are on a PC board compared to where it would be on an MSX.

Same with C64 with like, the RunStop key and the C= key.

[esadajr]

One has to think in terms of TCO, those mystical machines will just eat you alive.

I just learned there is an FM Downs emulator.

Back in the day, I did my work on an 8088 clone and didn't play much on that amber screen.

[Opethian]

UNZ plays just about everything if you cant figure out the emulator don't even bother buying a PC

[SuperDeadite]

Unz is decent enough.  In truth it isn't really a true emulator in the traditional sense.  At it's core its really just one big hack of TownsOS with emulated parts as needed (like the FM chip).  Most CD games are auto-boot, but some games require some really weird setups.  Some games are also really bitchy on the amount of RAM.