Author Topic: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?  (Read 7531 times)

sanjo

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2017, 02:35:27 PM »
yea, but theirs are in a released Crystalis fansequel, so they kinda one upped you.
Point taken, I never finished my old RPG maker projects...

that's interesting. I thought RPG Maker only did rpgs, not action rpgs

Michirin9801

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #91 on: June 30, 2017, 02:45:20 PM »
yea, but theirs are in a released Crystalis fansequel, so they kinda one upped you.
Point taken, I never finished my old RPG maker projects...

that's interesting. I thought RPG Maker only did rpgs, not action rpgs
You kinda have to go out of your way with events and scripts in order to be able to make anything that isn't an RPG... It's possible, but if you're gonna put in the effort you might as well use some other software like Game Maker Studio...
It's gonna be harder considering that you'll be making the game pretty much from the ground up, but the results will be a heck of a lot better!

Arkhan

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #92 on: June 30, 2017, 04:05:50 PM »
"The results will be a heck of a lot better"

How?  Why?  This is just some made up nonsense statistic with no real evidence, lol.

It's up to the graphics/programmer to make the results.   The fact you're doing it "from the ground up" doesn't automagically result in "a heck of a lot better".     In some cases, it results in "worse and doesn't get finished ever".

I wouldn't be surprised if the below results couldn't be achieved by the same team using GameMaker, or some other "DIY" setup, because it's harder.       



[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2017, 04:49:40 PM »
Look mate, there's only so much you can do in RPG maker before it becomes even harder to make there than it would in another software, and depending on what you're making it can be limiting in all of the wrong ways...
I've never said that good games can't be made in RPG maker, they definitely can, I sure have seen some and even played a couple, but when you go out of your way to make something that isn't an RPG, you're more often than not doing yourself and your game a disservice by making it in RPG maker...
(Note: "More often than not" doesn't mean "always")

Arkhan

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #94 on: June 30, 2017, 09:14:46 PM »
OK, given the copious amounts of discussion/scripts/tutorials/youtubes/examples, I am saying what you're saying is a bit nonsensical. 

What experience do you have that qualifies what you are saying, anyways?  You said you never finished anything from RPG Maker.   How many other things have you had any experience and/or success with when trying to make an RPG?

How much of what you tried was action?  When did you even try it?  RPG Maker has evolved a bit over the years.

RPG Maker gives you a lot of powerful features/things that you no longer have to DIY.    Forsaking those to do it all from scratch in Game Maker or some shit, especially if you aren't exactly a fantastic programmer or experienced game maker seems fairly strange.

You keep saying these "more often than not" and "heck of a lot better" statements that sound more opinion than fact, and don't have any real backing to them.   Yes, it doesn't mean "always", but what you're saying is sort of exaggerated.

How are you doing your game a disservice using RPG Maker?  Can you explain this? 

As I said, if you can't get it to work in RPGMaker, I don't think you'd manage to implement anything more competent in an engine that basically does nothing for you, so I don't see how you'd be doing a disservice.

We were doing action RPG stuff in RPG Maker over a decade ago, when it was actually hard.   Not like it is now.


http://rpgmaker.net/games/1722/

Not seeing how this sort of thing is a disservice because it is an RPG Maker game, and also not seeing how you could do "heck of a lot better" in Game Maker.   


There's a bunch of other games that aren't turn based in RPGMaker.


I would take RPG Maker to do an action RPG over something like Game Maker, or Allegro/Verge.   It abstracts away a lot for you.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #95 on: July 01, 2017, 07:25:07 AM »
I've used RPG maker 2000, 2003 and VX ace from 2009 through about 2013, but I mostly used 2003 due to being a pretty good improvement in usability over 2000 while still being in 240p, and from my experience RPG Maker is an excellent tool for beginner game designers who are more experienced in making graphics than anything (my case exactly) and you could do almost anything you wanted using the game's event system, even some really impressive stuff as seen in this video:

(Unfortunately I've never managed to find this game for download so I can't say how well it plays)

But RPG maker 2003 doesn't have scripts, so there's only so much you can do in it, you'll always be limited to tile-based movement in it, no 8 direction movement either, only 2 BG layers with no way to split them and move parts at different speeds, and you have very little control over the parallax (although if you're really creative you could fake extra layers by overlaying sprites and animations on top, but that only gives you foreground layers)

Here's the thing though, I'm not much of a writer, I have no interest in making an RPG, so I've always been trying to see how much I could push RPG maker 2003, what I could get out of it that wasn't an RPG, granted I've never managed to get anything even remotely close to what's shown in that video, but I could already see from afar that using RPG maker to make something like that would be a massive pain in the arse, and it would most likely not play well at all, so if I wanted to make anything that was good I'd either have to upgrade to newer versions which supported scripts (such as VX ace which I also tried to use), which would require me to either learn to code on my own or use other people's scripts, which might not exactly do what I wanted to do, or use some other program, either way, I'd have to learn to code, so if I were to learn to code, I might as well go all the way and use another program where I'd have full control over everything! The sizes and amount of frames of animation of all of my graphics, where to put them, how to refer to them, all of my variables, I can have as many background layers as I want and I can make them parallax at any speeds I want, I can have my movement work any way I want, with whatever controls I want, my title-screen can be much more interesting than a static image with a dialogue box with 3 options that say "New Game", "Continue" and "Exit" or any variation of these 3 functions, so on and so forth...
And making all of those things with the level of control that I wanted turned out to be MUCH easier in Game Maker Studio...
Granted there are some things about RPG maker that I still like better than GMS, like the tilemap editor, GMS's Tilemap editor is a flaming pile of rubbish that I hate almost as much as I hate Sonic (or maybe even more considering that I have to deal with it instead of ignoring it) and uhh... I suppose it's easier to actually finish a game in RPG maker if your game doesn't have robust physics?

While RPG maker is definitely usable to make games on a publishable level, I see it more as a learning tool that you move on from once you've acquired enough experience (unless all you ever want to make is RPGs and RPG maker fits what you want to make) but if you don't want to make RPGs (like me) nowadays there are a lot of programs more suited to what you might want to make, which would serve as far more useful learning tools!
The same creators of RPG maker have made their own 2D game engine for games other than RPGs, which is IG maker, it requires no scripting knowledge what-so-ever (read: "It doesn't support scripts" at least as far as I've used it back in 2014) you code with events, kinda like you did back in RPG maker 2003, but it has a lot more broad events meant for things other than RPGs, so if you're not much of a coder and you want to make a shmup, a top-down action game, a puzzle game or a platformer (maybe even a fighting game?) you know, games that have more robust physics and aren't necessarily top-down, you can make them MUCH more easily in that than you ever could in RPG maker, THAT's when you'd be doing yourself and your game a disservice by making it in RPG maker, because that way you're only over-complicating something that could be done easier in other software...

And that's because IG maker isn't even the best one out there, Construct 2 has come to my attention in recent months and it's not only easier to use than IG maker, but it's also more flexible than it! It also uses a "coding through events" system, but that system is even more robust and somehow even easier to use than IG maker's, and it has "Behaviours" which you can use to make some of the game's objects pretty much code themselves, all you have to do is adjust some parameters, but personally, I don't like behaviours at all, from my experience they mostly work like s***, you're better off coding everything on your own with events, the only one that I found to be useful was "Sine" which makes an object move in a sine wave, it's alright...

Personally I'd say Construct 2 is a FAR more useful learning tool for non-coders who want to make games that aren't RPGs, even an action RPG would be better off made in it than it would in RPG maker I'd say because you're able to use as many sprites as you want and make them as big and animated with as many frames as you want, with full and easy control of the collision boxes, without requiring ANY scripting what-so-ever! (The program doesn't supports scripts either, but you can code fine just using its event system)
In this program you're not adjusting a pre-existing engine to suit your needs, you're making your own game engine in the easiest way that I personally know, which gives you MUCH more creative freedom and that's good!
That said though, RPG maker (and IG maker) still have a better tilemap editor... Yeah they just don't get any better than that... Although Construct 2 still has a better one than GMS, but GMS2 has just come out and it's a MASSIVE improvement in the tilemap editor! I haven't tried it yet (no moniez) but you can make animated tiles in it which you couldn't in GMS1 and you had to use a custom shader that replaces tiles with sprites if you wanted to do that, not to mention there's an auto-tiling feature too (like there also is in RPG maker) so that makes my job a heck of a lot easier... Oh and the Drag 'n Drop coding has also gotten better, I've heard that anything you can do with GMS Scripts you can now do in the Drag 'n Drop code, which wasn't the case before, so that makes the code much less of a pain to deal with in my book, not that I have to deal with that, I've got help, so all I have to do is make graphics, music, level design, character and monster design, sound effects and so on... I really need to upgrade to GMS2...

The point is that RPG maker is perfectly fine to make RPGs, but if you want to do anything else there are better tools out there which will make it much easier, at least from my experience, but hey, if you say that it's gotten easier to make action RPGs in RPG maker lately I'll just take your word for it, but from my experience, if it requires scripts at all, I'm always going to recommend other programs to use instead, not only for the added freedom, but also because the results will be better...

Arkhan

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #96 on: July 01, 2017, 07:54:37 AM »
Tldr,  youre speaking with noncoder opinion as fact.   Theres nothing wrong with scripting engines.   unity even uses them.   Lots of commercial games do too.   Sometimes its preferable to event driven.


We were talking about action rpgs anyways.   No kidding you could make other genres better in another engine.   

That was never really up for debate lol.

The latest rpg maker is a better tool for arpgs than construct.

Construct is kind of shit.    It works but isnt ideal.

Insanity blade was made with it, and the author talked about his ughs
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #97 on: July 01, 2017, 08:45:40 AM »
Tldr,  youre speaking with noncoder opinion as fact.   Theres nothing wrong with scripting engines.   unity even uses them.   Lots of commercial games do too.   Sometimes its preferable to event driven.


We were talking about action rpgs anyways.   No kidding you could make other genres better in another engine.   

That was never really up for debate lol.

The latest rpg maker is a better tool for arpgs than construct.

Construct is kind of shit.    It works but isnt ideal.

Insanity blade was made with it, and the author talked about his ughs
Indeed, there's nothing wrong with scripting engines, but my point is that if you're gonna learn to code in order to use scripts in your RPG maker game you might as well go the extra mile and use another tool which will give you more creative freedom...

I was never talking specifically about just action RPGs, I was talking about any game that wasn't a traditional RPG, granted if you're gonna make something in RPG maker that isn't a traditional RPG you'll have the best results with Action RPGs because many of the traditional RPG elements carry over, but there's no shortage of games that aren't RPGs OR Action RPGs made in RPG maker which could end up being better if they were made using other programs...

That said though, I've seen adventure games made in RPG maker which I found to have been massively improved by being made in RPG maker if only due to the fact that controlling characters with the arrow keys and 2 buttons is WAY better than pointing and clicking, and inventory puzzles are much more manageable when everything is laid out on a tilemap rather than clicking on semi-conspicuous places on a bitmap background, so yeah, exceptions exist...

Also, yes, Construct really isn't ideal, but I find it to be a better learning tool than RPG maker for games that aren't RPGs, it's an okay program for non-coders to put a prototype together, but commercial games should probably be made elsewhere... Same goes for IG Maker...

Arkhan

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #98 on: July 01, 2017, 08:48:21 AM »
The topic was action rpgs, and you went off on some tangential deepend fueled by your incomplete experiences.

The engine is only half the battle.   Stop saying one thing will instantly produce a better thing.

Ive played seuck and qb games that take hot dumps on unity games faces
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #99 on: July 01, 2017, 09:18:30 AM »
The engine is only half the battle.   Stop saying one thing will instantly produce a better thing.

Ive played seuck and qb games that take hot dumps on unity games faces
Amateur 3D games generally suck a big one anyway...

And please don't twist my points, I've never said the engine will instantly make a better result, I said "If you're going to learn to code to use scripts, you might as well go the extra mile" which I'd imagine implies that it's up for the designer to make a better game by putting in the effort to make their games better! And if they're willing to put in that effort using an engine that gives them more creative freedom will ultimately allow them to make a better non-RPG game than they'd otherwise be able to make in RPG maker, be it an Action RPG or otherwise...

elmer

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #100 on: July 01, 2017, 10:08:44 AM »
Theres nothing wrong with scripting engines.   unity even uses them.   Lots of commercial games do too.   Sometimes its preferable to event driven.

Actually, IMHO (and experience), events driving a well-designed scripting-language that can modify events/behaviors/attributes in the low-level engine, is the way to go.

AFAIK, that's what a lot of commercial developers have been doing for many years.

It's just so much easier to dynamically update script-code while the game is running and interactively test changes that way.


At this point, it just seems as though you're both looking at things from different perspectives.

Coming from a third perspective, as someone that doesn't know about, or care about, any of these xxx-maker or yyy-engine easy-to-use systems, all that I can see is that you're both arguing for two different, and not-really-incompatible, viewpoints.

That doesn't seem like it makes much sense, or is going to do anything more than annoy each of you.


It also has absolutely nothing to do with what this thread is supposed to be about.

Michirin9801

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #101 on: July 01, 2017, 11:22:21 AM »
Coming from a third perspective, as someone that doesn't know about, or care about, any of these xxx-maker or yyy-engine easy-to-use systems, all that I can see is that you're both arguing for two different, and not-really-incompatible, viewpoints.
Since unlike me you know how to code stuff, I'd say you're perfectly fine not bothering with these easy-to-use game-making programs, as I kinda said before I see them as nice tools for the folks who are good at art and want to make games but can't find someone to code, or to serve as more of a learning tool for people who want to be game designers regardless of what they're good at...

But as most learning tools go, they're something you move on from eventually, I think the best games are done when someone who's good at graphics, someone who's good at music and someone who's good at code come together to make something great, each one focusing on what they do best!

And yes, I can definitely see the overlap in my points and in Arkhan's as I've pointed them out in my own responses, but can he? And does it even matter?

Arkhan

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #102 on: July 01, 2017, 12:02:33 PM »
You should reread how youve worded your statements like how stuff will be a heck of a lot better.  Youre speaking in like, unfounded absolutes.

Unity also does 2d.  Were not discussing 3d. 

You keep diving to other points that arent being discussed lol. 

Someone asked about action rpgs in rpg maker.    This tangent is basically irrelevant and nonsensical.    Its not that youre wrong, its that you missed the point and ran with it lol.

Besides though, some wildly popular stuff atm is being made with Unity.  And game maker even.    These toy like engines arent awful, and i personally find it lame when coders look down on people using easy things.    Im not too picky as long as a game isnt shit.   Ive played games in basic that are better than supposedly pro stuff. 

By people who write kind of bad code.   Some of the collison and raycasting ive seen in use drives me nuts.


But it works, and the game is ok.


Dismissing scripting is a fundamental misstep by anyone doing it though, and as elmer pointed out, often times combining the two works well.

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #103 on: July 01, 2017, 12:39:09 PM »
Youre speaking in like, unfounded absolutes.
Except I don't believe in absolutes, everything I say is my opinion, and everything I hear from other people is their opinion, there's no such things as "Absolutes", heck even in the scientific realm there are things that we'll probably never know, and therefore can't be called "absolute"...
The only thing there is is consensus, which comes from a general overlap on a lot of different people's opinions, none of which is entirely equal, or at least that's what I believe in, the point is that no, I'm not speaking in absolutes, nor do I ever mean to...

Besides though, some wildly popular stuff atm is being made with Unity.  And game maker even.    These toy like engines arent awful, and i personally find it lame when coders look down on people using easy things.    Im not too picky as long as a game isnt shit.   Ive played games in basic that are better than supposedly pro stuff. 

By people who write kind of bad code.   Some of the collison and raycasting ive seen in use drives me nuts.


But it works, and the game is ok.
There's no black and white "This is professional" and "This is amateur/hobbyist", it's all more of a gradient, and I think Game Maker and Unity are on more of a higher end of the spectrum towards the "Professional" level at this point...
I've heard Unity can make 2D games, but I've also heard it being described as "Trying to carve a wooden statue with a chainsaw", not my words, I have no experience with it, but I AM using Game Maker Studio to make my own in-development-hell project, so that should be proof enough that I have respect for the software (even though the room editor sucks and I dread going back to it and I want to upgrade to GMS2 because the Room editor is so much better)

And it's not like I look down on easier tools like RPG maker, IG maker or Construct, they have their place, but I personally would use and recommend something else for a game to be made on a 'publishable' level, especially if you want more creative control...

Dismissing scripting is a fundamental misstep by anyone doing it though, and as elmer pointed out, often times combining the two works well.
I agree with that! And that is why I looked for help with that part! So that they can focus on doing what I can't, while I can focus on doing what I'm good at...

Arkhan

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Re: Which is your favorite retro gaming era?
« Reply #104 on: July 01, 2017, 12:44:17 PM »
Oh i get that its your opinion, its just sort of coming off as a bit cut and dry, which is a bit goofy to me when you do it while admitting you dont have alot of experience.

I know youre not looking down on people.   Its just something other people unfortunately do.   Some of these toy like engines can produce perfect games.   Works for me lol.    Id pay full price for an rpg maker or game maker game if it looked fun. 

Insanitys blades a good example of that.    Lol and he did it in construct.    He deserves a medal.   

Unity added proper 2d a few years ago.   Its pretty solid.   No more fighting with 3d confines on a flat z axis. 

I was using it for a bit before going back to msx and pce.   

I like the actual retro more than trying to pander to new people
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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