Author Topic: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles  (Read 8024 times)

xelement5x

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2017, 05:58:15 AM »
So, would it be possible to make a pass-through device (I am thinking about the Genesis specifically) that steps the 5V to the 3.3V and then passes that to the Everdrive to use?  Or are there other parts of the Everdrive that specifically need the 5V and wouldn't work with a 3.3V instead. 
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sirhcman

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2017, 06:37:05 AM »
I will wait to hear what thesteve says on the matter before dumping my TED v1

Johnpv

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2017, 07:11:54 AM »
Also, please stop comparing the death of a gaming console to f*cking cancer or a car crash. I would much rather lose all of my consoles than have cancer.

No one is comparing them in a level of issue.  The point in the comparison is that lack of occurrence of something in a shortly poorly monitored time does not equal the thing never happening.

SignOfZeta

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2017, 09:03:30 AM »
So, would it be possible to make a pass-through device (I am thinking about the Genesis specifically) that steps the 5V to the 3.3V and then passes that to the Everdrive to use?  Or are there other parts of the Everdrive that specifically need the 5V and wouldn't work with a 3.3V instead. 

As a matter of practicality, since this would only be needed to fix a shitty product more poorly made than itself, I don't see this happening. I guess it would depend on the system in question.

The reason he speaks of level modifiers instead of regulators or current limiting resistors is because it's really a much more delicate job.

(I really need to say, I am not an expert on electronics or semiconductors of this nature. My professional electronic experience is mostly automotive and I sorta know a few things about audio but that's about it. I think I understand the issue well enough to say this though.)

So let's say you have a 5V bus and a 3.3V flash cart. What happens?

The 3.3V chip would be overpowered. This is no problem. You can put a reg in there or even just a resistor, if you know all the hardware variations, since that actually would work for powering the chip. This has been done with most of these carts according to the video.

However, carts have lots of pins. The Neo has 256! Many are unused but regardless, there is more than just powering the chip to take care of. All the data lines on the bus (cart slot) are designed to send and receive at 5V.

Let's say, for example, that you had just one data out and one data in. They could be connected to the CPU, the RAM, the sound chip, some serial bus, whatever. Just consider that one is in and one is out.

So the data out on the bus is hooked to a data in on the flash. The flash basically watches that pin for a square wave, bits, like knocking on a door. This works fine, the flash will see the knocking on the door, but it will be REALLY LOUD, like that mouth breather who slams the door of your car so hard it shakes the entire parking lot. Now, if this were something a motor being overpowered it would just spin faster and make more heat and maybe waste it's bearings. The data input on a chip is super high impedance though. It may be 10KOhms or more. So the data outline is beating on the door like crazy but the door is made of concrete and isn't going anywhere.

Where does the voltage go? If current is high, as is the theory, then this chip is dropping voltages. Its dropping the same it normally does PLUS whatever extra voltages there is. Since the chip can only produce heat as a byproduct of switching this means that all the voltage drop is basically coming from arcing at the data lines.

Right? I think so. What makes connections arc is a difference in voltage between the two points. Connecting 5V to 5V does nothing. Connecting 5V to 0V will make shitloads of heat and melt everything if a breaker doesn't stop it. The increase in heat dissipation at the data line could be felt on both sides of the bus. In addition to arcing you have the possibility that the chip's lack of fortitude is causing data lines to flow more current, probably way more than normal since normal is almost immeasurably small. This could be within the ability of the game machine or maybe not. We know it wouldn't be anything the designers planed for since they were using 5V ROMs. These ROMs don't let the knocking on the door push the whole building down like the 3.3V ones do when you overpower them.

So is there a way to do this? Oh sure. Moving from one voltage range to another is just part of electronics design. It's not as simple as adjusting a level though. You need to give the bus a 5V door to knock on, and then pass that on as a 3.3V knock without any latency or hysteresis of any kind. It has to put out a perfect square wave just like the source but at a lower high voltage state.

The data line back from the cart to the bus will now need its 3.3V boosted to 5V. Again, it must be perfect and the extra voltage can't come from the 3.3V flash.

So presumably level modifiers are chips that do this. They can handle data coming in at one level of voltage and then pass it along at another without f*cking up the data and while isolating each complaint so that everything works within its spec and can't have a low resistance component somewhere down the line causing high current draw.

Ok. So how many lines is that on a game cartridge? I think the guy say twenty some for a Genesis. Now look at that Neo cart.

Holy shit. Their PCBs will have to become much more complicated to accommodate this. Also, it's good to hear that the NeoSD thing is fully legit in this area. That certainly helps sell the case to me that that is a well make product.

As for a game Genie kinda thing...maybe, it depends on the system, but it would cost more than the POS flash cart you're trying to fix with it so you should just buy the next version of their POS, I guess.

I will fix those typos later...

Groover

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2017, 01:49:56 PM »
I'm not going to pretend to say I fully understand the details. I do believe what Rene is saying and that the info is factually sound. I have a few flash carts. I'm game for a group buy of V2 TEDs. I have a version 1 and it has ben great but I don't want to harm my two duos and express. I also need to replace my Mega Everdrive. The 5X is supposed be compliant.

I understand some people saying that in real world use they have been ok. That is good to hear but why take the risk. It is like if I have a cigarette I don't just die from it but if I smoke over the years it will catch up with me.

I'm also dealing with my Genesis SCART cables possibly having boosted sync damaging my switch and Framemiester.

ClodBuster

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2017, 05:42:51 PM »
Great explanation, Zeta. Now even me, the analog electronics guy, got a better understanding of digital electronics. The comparison of knocking on a door is pretty sound. Thanks!

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Jibbajaba

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2017, 05:53:13 PM »
Yeah not even remotely the same.  You're comparing apples to oranges. 

If some one told you running a certain type of gasoline had a chance of ruining your engine would you do it just because no one else had that problem?  When there's a recall on your car do you not get it done because no one you know has had the problem?

It's like saying yeah my tires are only rated for 80 mph but until some one drives them at 160 and they blow that's what I'm going to do.

Yeah not even remotely the same.  You're comparing apples to oranges. 

Lol, k.

ClodBuster

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2017, 08:23:35 PM »
Cool post by db in 2015 (!), going more into details electronics wise and doing the math for you guys:

http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2170#p27335

Quote
BTW, I've actually taken the time to contact the FAE (Field Applications Engineer) of several flash producing companies (Microchip and Macronix) and discussed the 5V -> 3.3V issue, they both replied "OMG DON'T DO THAT!" when I mentioned adding a series resistor as a simple solution.


*thumbs up*

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BlueBMW

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2017, 08:40:27 PM »
If the end result is a possible over-current situation on data lines in the CPUs and RAM chips, could we not just add some heatsinks to the various chips in our consoles to accommodate the extra heat production?
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ClodBuster

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2017, 11:35:03 PM »
Hahaha.


EDIT:
Not directed to you, just a general rant:

Reminds me of fellow hobbygrade R/C car drivers on some forums I visit.

They upgrade their cars with fancy high RPM electric motors, but power is still controlled by the stock electronic speed controller. Then they gather in forums and complain about their cars cutting off every other minute. Until they realise that they actually need a better controller that's able to cope with the high current draw and the heat that's building up. Just bodging on a bigger heat sink on the stock controller isn't doing it, since it is still operated outside of its specs.

The same goes for those R/C drivers who can't accept the fact that their modern 2.4 GHz micro-sized radio receivers lack a power regulator to step down the battery voltage from 7.2V to a radio gear compatible range of 4.8V - 6V. And then they are confused when either their receivers or steering servos behave erratic or even release their magic smoke. Even when confronted with the truth that they need an external BEC for power regulation, they still won't believe the facts... until one of their 50+ mph cars gets out of control and causes substantial harm to bystanding people.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:57:17 PM by ClodBuster »

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SignOfZeta

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2017, 05:33:01 AM »
If the end result is a possible over-current situation on data lines in the CPUs and RAM chips, could we not just add some heatsinks to the various chips in our consoles to accommodate the extra heat production?

Nah, I think it makes more sense to just throw away systems every once in a while until yet another version of these cards gets released that won't do this.

xelement5x

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2017, 05:50:35 AM »
KRIKzz Response:

http://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic=6614.msg51195#msg51195

Quote
1. Lot of carts were sold for this years, but NO ONE were returned due the flash chip damage. If carts comes back for repair, they usually damaged physically or has some manufacturing defects. Some early carts, like edmd v2 or super-ed v1, may lost bootloaders, but this is was only software problem.
As for possibility of console damage, here also not been detected any problems. I have MD2 and Famicom-av from first days, they intensively used for development and just to play some games. I use them more than 7 years in heavy mode and nothing happens. Also we have few consoles for production testing, they used almost every day and for 7 years only one famicom died, and it happens due the power cord accidentally shorted on console pcb. The only problem with those test consoles is cartridge connectors, they stop working every 5-10 months after such using in extremely heavy conditions, but after replacement they continue working.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 05:52:36 AM by xelement5x »
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Black Tiger

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2017, 06:35:15 AM »
I've always planned to continue upgrading to new flash carts as they get better and better, just as it's no longer 1990 and I expect to continue needing to have consoles serviced for the rest of my life.

This is just one more thing to take into consideration, but the popularity of all of these early flash carts has shown that this isn't a medium term or wide spread problem.

Ideally we should all be using step up/down converters with consoles from different regions and it's common practice in the community to use the power supplies from other consoles or random ac adaptors, even though we've been warned about potential damage in the long term.

There are many other common behaviours that we know are bad for our hardware, but we take that into consideration when we decide to go ahead and do it any way.
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SignOfZeta

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2017, 10:30:53 AM »
I'd have to say that I agree that the things obviously don't genuinely kill consoles at any noticeable rate, yet. Keep in mind the flash cart craze isn't very old yet. If everyone actually played all the shit they are  collectarding away, like Pier Solar, we may see more of it.

I think the comparison to a step downs is invalid though. Giving one side of a transformer power supply %15 more voltage isn't anywhere near as dumb as giving your data lines %50 more voltage. This also leaves aside the fact that many systems have world power supplies anyway so buying a step down is pointless. Also, even after whatever your power supply is the system itself is regulated. Also, cheap step down devices often ruin the things you put in them. Etc etc etc. Also, nobody who says CD-R's kill systems has yet, as far as I've seen, promoted that theory with anything approaching this level of analysis.

To the non technical mind the comparison makes sense. "Experts don't know shit."

Gypsy

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2017, 01:28:29 PM »
Maybe I just have golden systems (unlikely since a couple of my optical systems were bought non-working and I brought them back to life) but I've played with a ton of burned discs and had pretty much no issues. I also had a PS2 I bought new die on me within a year and I fed it nothing but retail discs. I very much think the cdr scare tactic thing is crap.

Hard data would be interesting, but I don't think any that would support playing cdrs being bad exists. I of course could be wrong, I only have a small data pool of myself and a few friends that have played games with burned discs.