Author Topic: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles  (Read 8039 times)

SamIAm

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #105 on: July 11, 2017, 12:44:26 PM »
A couple more posts from Krikzz:

Flashing an SMS game. Flashing itself causes about a 10mA increase in consumption.


Hucard vs Everdrive 1.0 playing Dungeon Explorer. Everdrive again needs an extra 25-30mA.


EDIT:  btw, 25-30mA doesn't seem like a lot, but if it's all coming from just the flash, CPU and RAM it might be. Knowing what a normal consumption of just the bus would help. He's measuring consumption of the entire system, of which heat dispation from CPU/RAM is but a tiny portion. For all I know consumption by sensitive componants has tripled. Has this been discussed to death anywhere yet?

While it remains to be tested, this extra current is probably just being drawn from the 5V power rail. It really wouldn't be surprising for those flash chips and SD card interfaces to need more power to operate than the mask-ROM in real carts. Not to mention, they're behind a linear 3.3V regulator, which should be dissipating some of that current as heat.

I can't find the link at the moment, but Rene himself did a measurement of Virtua Racing on the Genesis and found it pulling around 100mA more than normal carts, so some extra draw from the power rail is probably within tolerances. It could easily be that the Arcade Card Pro draws more than an Everdrive 1.0.

Those ubiquitous yellow multicarts for MVS for example, there seems to be more anecdotal evidence claiming they kill boards. 

For me this is the main take-away from this thread. Avoid those cheaply made multicarts and pirate carts, I suppose?

Yeah, I don't intend to use my 120-in-1 again until tests are done, at least.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 01:14:51 PM by SamIAm »

Black Tiger

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2017, 02:00:33 PM »
What about the many new types of HuCards?

Old AbCard
French HuCard
turbokon & co's HuCards
dbelectronics HuCards


Has anyone killed a <16-bit console by running it too long while overclocked?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 02:02:50 PM by Black Tiger »
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Gredler

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2017, 07:44:49 PM »



esteban

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #108 on: July 12, 2017, 12:25:29 AM »


This is no joke, Gredler.

Shame on you.

:)
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SignOfZeta

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2017, 09:51:31 AM »
If the extra consumption does come from powering the flash then...then that's pretty much the answer we're looking for. It's also really easy to test compared to trying to measure the data lines.

Some extra current consumption is normal for weird carts. Virtual Racing had a DSP, it needs some power obviously. The XBand had an entire analog modem in it and a magnetic card reader as well as its own CPU, RAM, and ROM and ON TOP of that any cart you were using, such as Super Mario Kart which also has its own DSP. The SuFami Turbo hold two carts at once. You have to go all the way up to 32X before they thought they'd see power supply issues.

These are all extra draws from the power side. If that's where this extra 30mA is coming from, no problem. It's still out of spec for reasons of laziness or ignorance or cost, but it isn't doing anything measurably bad in that case. Usually flash is way more power efficient than 25 year old ROMs but it's obviously a lot more flash so...here I don't know much. :)

SamIAm

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2017, 02:26:23 PM »
It looks like all of this started when Rene was measuring the power consumption of Genesis carts and found that while real games were drawing 10-20mA, his Mega Everdrive was drawing more like 130mA.

https://db-electronics.ca/wiki/wikis/consoles/sega-genesis/#Game_Cart_Current_Consumption

Without investigating the specific parts on his Mega Everdrive, checking any other Everdrives or contacting Krikzz, he seemingly assumed that this was a typical amount for all Everdrives and wrote his article.

It just so happens that before even learning that Rene was using a Mega Everdrive, Krikzz posted those youtube links on his forum showing the much smaller 25-30mA increase and commented “As for mega ed v1: testing of this cart will not give clear results, because it use SDRAM and FPGA which has pretty high power consumption.”

Later, he wrote in Rene's comment section:
Quote from: Krikzz
So, what exactly your measurements shows, except like normal power consumption of cartridge components?
MAX-3000 at 50Mhz
Cyclone II at 133Mhz
MT48 SDRAM with forced overabundant refresh cycles.
Look at datasheet and you will see that it is pretty much normal power consumption for such hardware configuration

So the 130mA current is normal for this particular cart, and it's being drawn from the power rail, not through the bus.

Another person on the article page gave a good (possible) explanation for why the diode clamps probably aren't drawing any significant current - the same kind of clamping is done during bus conflicts, and so parts that use the bus are built not to bleed current this way.

I'm still going to wait until someone at least takes a multimeter measurement, but if what that guy says is true, the Neo Geo mutlicarts are likely OK. I actually wonder if those cheap Chinese chips even have diode clamps in them, to be honest.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 02:56:22 AM by SamIAm »

ClodBuster

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2017, 05:46:38 PM »
Krikzz doesn't show how he does his measurements. All you can see is a console, a TV and a DMM. You don't see where exactly on the board he attaches his DMM for current measurement. He also doesn't show any voltage measurements.

I smell bullshit.

If the extra consumption does come from powering the flash then...then that's pretty much the answer we're looking for. It's also really easy to test compared to trying to measure the data lines.
I expect  also power spikes in the initialization process of the flash cart, due to Krikzz design with the series resistors being out of specification. There's no way to show them with a DMM like shown in Krikzz current measurement videos. You need a DSO to detect these. That's why Krikzz' videos are debatable.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 08:17:51 PM by ClodBuster »

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SamIAm

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #112 on: July 12, 2017, 09:19:50 PM »
You really think he's trying to deceive us? At a time when his products have come under scrutiny and are likely to be tested by others, and his credibility destroyed if his lie were found out? When he could apologize now for any problem and likely be forgiven by most?

I think you've jumped to a conclusion about Krikzz despite there being no evidence that his products cause damage.

Even crappy multimeters these days are 99% accurate, and that's more than enough to see whether we're drawing 300mA or 500mA. I'm still curious whether any of the extra 25-30mA is being drawn through the bus, but we've heard a good reason why it wouldn't happen, we've seen that the temperature of the Everdrive is not rising during operation, and we've been given a completely believable (if not yet proven) explanation by Krikzz about why the difference in current is there.

I don't smell bullshit. I think that Rene neglected to do proper testing before making such a big claim. If he wasn't going to test, or at least point to similar cases, he should have framed the diode-clamp-effect as a possibility and not as a fact.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 09:56:22 PM by SamIAm »

ClodBuster

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2017, 11:27:57 PM »
Why are you so eager defending Krikzz? Are you related to him, does he pay you to support him on forums and blogs, or are you just one of his biggest fans?

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SamIAm

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2017, 01:41:24 AM »
I see no evidence that he has done anything wrong.

Johnpv

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #115 on: July 13, 2017, 02:23:46 AM »

crazydean

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #116 on: July 13, 2017, 02:25:10 AM »
I see no evidence that he has done anything wrong.

I agree. I think Rene jumped the gun on his article. If you're going to call someone out on their products, you should do your research. He should have gathered more evidence. His article is written as a blog post about some musing, not a scientific article.
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Black Tiger

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #117 on: July 13, 2017, 02:28:20 AM »
Why are you so eager defending Krikzz? Are you related to him, does he pay you to support him on forums and blogs, or are you just one of his biggest fans?

It sounds like no one has proven anything either way and there's a lot of half-assing and theories being tossed around. No one should be getting worked up one way or the other until we actually know everything, yet you are very excited, unlike Sam.

Also take into consideration than dbelectronics is trying to get a foothold in a business in which he's now making accusations against his competitors, based on theories which are based on spec sheets.

We're still waiting for the epidemic of destroyed consoles that should exist from years of popularity of such dangerous devices. Kerp in mind that cheap Chinese knockoffs of Everdrives are very popular as well. So forums should be flooded with stories of dead consoles.
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Necromancer

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #118 on: July 13, 2017, 02:53:25 AM »
Why are you so eager defending Krikzz? Are you related to him, does he pay you to support him on forums and blogs, or are you just one of his biggest fans?

Why are you so eager to label him a lying scam artist?  Are you related to rene, does he pay you to bitch, or are you just an a$$hole?  :P

Half of your complaints about krikzz are factually incorrect:

"why isn't he redesigning his carts?!?"  -  newer carts (like the TED 2.x) are improved.

"he's denying simple facts!!!"  -  he actually agrees that it's a problem, one that's been addressed in redesigns and will be handled in future products.

"he's a liar / full of shit / a hypocrite [for sharing anecdotal evidence and maybe less than scientific test results] !!!"  -  what's wrong with pointing out the obvious?  If rene's dire consequences were fact, why haven't all of krikzz's systems been killed?  Why hasn't he had hundreds of returns for voltage and heat related repairs?  Why haven't forums been plagued with flashcart users complaining of dead systems? 

Seriously, it's not like these things just came out yesterday.  Nobody's arguing that they're properly designed and perfectly fine as is, but if they really are as dangerous as rene's spec sheet math says they are, we should have plenty of examples of failures by now.
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ClodBuster

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Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2017, 04:00:48 AM »
Your point is well taken.

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