Author Topic: Favorite Namco PCE game?  (Read 3652 times)

ccovell

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2017, 02:09:40 PM »
I disagree.  Early (hell, even in 1993-94) Capcom SNES games had horrible instrumentation.  I thought so even in 1991 when I rented a SNES and Final Fight.

Capcom on the NES at least made good use of the different pulsewidths for different instruments, 1- or 2-channel echo, looped noise for percussion; none of this is to sniff at.

Play the password entry tune in Code Name: Viper and tell me it's not a jazzy, at least decent, reconstruction of a 4-piece jazz band, with a great muted trumpet facsimile considering the NES hardware.

Michirin9801

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2017, 02:46:03 PM »
Eh, you're free to disagree, but I did mention Final Fight 1 and 2 as exceptions...
That said though, as much as I love Capcom's SNES sound, they also generally don't have my favourite SNES audio, once again beaten by the likes of Natsume, Hudson and Konami, to name a few...
Okay, Enix, Square, Taito, Rare and Nintendo too, I just couldn't not mention them...
I'd still say Final Fight 3 has one of my favourite soundtracks in gaming though! Probably my favourite from them...

Also, I'd never heard of Code Name Viper until now, looked up its Password music and well... I can't exactly say it pleases my ears very much >w>';
Sorry... Maybe the rest of the soundtrack could surprise me though, who knows?

Arkhan

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2017, 04:45:42 PM »
but the instrumentation is just so generic and lazy-sounding, it sounds like "any NES music", it doesn't pack the same punch that Sunsoft music did on the system, not even remotely close...

I'm sorry, you're wrong and need to tell your ears to try harder.

I think the problem is you are enamored by samples and weird effects, which is what Sunsoft specialized in pretty hardcore on the NES with Gremlins and such, so you've fooled yourself into thinking that anything else is inferior.  This is why you are obsessed with the SNES.  It's a bunch of samples gone wild.

To say Capcom NES sounds generic and lazy and like "any NES music" is just kind of clueless. 

They had a very distinct sound on NES.  So much so that Codename Viper has leads that I can equate to the ones in MegaMan.     Mega Man's percussion is pretty legendary.    No other group even comes close with the lazer-toms.  At all.

Like Chris pointed out, their echo is pretty fantastic, too.


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Eww, that would have been rubbish >w>';

Yeah man the only way that could be worse is if they sampled shitty orchestra sounds from a toy keyboard.  It's a good thing they didn't do something that sounded like that...

oh wait.

I would legit rather listen to the NES one that isn't even that great over shit-tier muffled/aliased/goony orchestra crap.


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Personally, I think it was on the SNES days that Capcom really found their own "sound identity", their SNES games for the most part sound incredible!
Other than the first two Final Fight games their SNES soundtracks are all amazing!

Final Fight 2's OST isn't bad... it has some fantastic cockrock and swing music that fits the mood perfectly.


and incase you didn't notice in this song, it has some of the same sounds from Street Fighter 2 and Mega Man X....  so now you're just contradicting yourself.

Capcom's sound identity basically comes from that synthbass, and chorus'y lead guitar sample they used.  If you don't know a song, hear that bass, and guess Capcom, you are probably going to be right.

Exceptions being  like.... Demon's Crest, which has a pretty forgettable soundtrack that at least sound's nice while playing it.

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That's when they had both the composition AND the instrumentation to back it up! So much variety! So much charm! So much punch!

It's a bunch of samples of rock instruments from digital pianos.   Calm down, lol.

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You don't get soundtracks like those anymore,

Yeah, because now you get real rock bands instead of shitty sampled attempts at them.   ayyyyyy


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Final Fight 3 still has one of my favourite soundtracks in gaming!

lol.   "one of my favourite X in gaming" is your catchphrase.   I think you have used it so much here that I'm not sure if you know what favorite actually means.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2017, 07:50:00 PM »
I'm sorry, you're wrong and need to tell your ears to try harder.
I can't be wrong about having an opinion.
The only "wrong" thing is dismissing someone else's opinion as "wrong" because it's different from yours...

Yes, I'm enamoured by lo-fi samples, and there's nothing wrong with that, I'll take lo-fi rock/orchestral instrument samples over real rock or "NES chipwank" any day, and that's my honest-to-goodness opinion that you can't simply say "you're wrong" and hope to change my mind...

Also, neither Final Fight 1 nor 2 have bad soundtracks, I never said that, I said they were the exception to the whole "Capcom had good instruments on the SNES" thing, yes, I know they've reused some instruments from other games, pretty much all devs do that sometimes, but the way they were used in other games like Street Fighter and Mega Man X just pleased my ears more than they do in Final Fight 1 and 2...

And the thing about Final Fight 3's soundtrack is that it's just SO layered and has SO much stuff going on at once, they basically have each instrument playing its own melody at once, and it all ends up somehow fitting so neatly together like clockwork! That soundtrack is not only GENIUSly composed, it's also got some of the best instrumentation they've used on the system! (Which to me means "ever" because to my ears nothing sounds better than the SNES ;3)

You disagree? Fine! Have your opinion, unlike you I'll not give you s*** for it, you can like and dislike whatever you want...

Arkhan

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2017, 08:19:25 PM »
I can't be wrong about having an opinion.


http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/no-it-s-not-your-opinion-you-re-just-wrong-updated-7611752

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The only "wrong" thing is dismissing someone else's opinion as "wrong" because it's different from yours...

This, going back to the article I just posted.   When you say something is lazy and maintain that stance after someone explains clearly unlazy technical prowess....especially using the patented "well you're free to disagree" or "that's just your opinion" shit,  you kinda lean into wrongland.   It's such a dumbassed copout.

even when you're not doing that, your opinions may not be wrong, but they can still f*cking suck.

and not because I may disagree with them.   It's because you put them out there with little substance.     Name dropping every popular company followed by AND I LIKE COMPANY X BECAUSE BY GOLLY YEP THEY SURE ARE THE GOODEST without any other real example of anything is useless.

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Yes, I'm enamoured by lo-fi samples, and there's nothing wrong with that, I'll take lo-fi rock/orchestral instrument samples over real rock or "NES chipwank" any day, and that's my honest-to-goodness opinion that you can't simply say "you're wrong" and hope to change my mind...


I don't simply say "you're wrong".  I at least provide examples/reasons/explanations, lol.   I don't really care if you like listening to shitty sample-rock instead of actual instruments.  More power to you.     I'd rather go see Iron Maiden instead of listening to a bunch of SNES covers of Iron Maiden. 

Quote from: Michirin
Also, neither Final Fight 1 nor 2 have bad soundtracks, I never said that,


Quote from: Michirin
Other than the first two Final Fight games their SNES soundtracks are all amazing!


 :roll:   Nice one, dummy.


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You disagree? Fine! Have your opinion, unlike you I'll not give you s*** for it, you can like and dislike whatever you want...

You can keep being a crybaby about the fact that I made fun of your opinion to the point where you gripe about it on a high horse like 3 times in one post. ...

It doesn't change the fact that you can't articulate much outside of "omg its the beststestest ever because teeheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

try using examples and reasons besides adverb laden hyperventilating about your most favoritist thing of all time ever ever.

and stop bleeping out your f*cking swear words.  Are you 12?  We know what the f*ck's supposed to go there when you put S***.    Are you trying to get the "no swear words" scout badge or some shit?   

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Michirin9801

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2017, 09:32:11 PM »
I don't think I should have to explain why I have an opinion in order to have and express it, but since you demand it...
Other than having occasional detuned reverb and triangle toms, which a lot of other non-Capcom games also do on the NES, what does NES Capcom music do to stand-out? It's really well-composed, sure, but it does nothing else, their instruments are just straight pulses, they don't really do any interesting effects, no vibrato/tremolo, no changing the duty-cycle or octave mid-instrument, no samples, barely any volume manipulation, no splitting percussion duties between the noise and triangle or pulse channels (other than the aforementioned Toms, which don't even have noise backup, and I personally think are a little too high-pitched) as spenoza said:
Capcom always focused solely on composition and did very little custom programming and manipulation with the NES sound hardware.

They basically rely entirely on composition to make their music interesting, and the compositions are often good! But the instrumentation isn't at all interesting to me... Is it lazy? Perhaps that was a little harsh, but I still think that most of the best-sounding NES games aren't from Capcom, and that's because they took better advantage of what the system can do... They can have put god-only-knows how much effort into making their instruments sound the way they do, but what came out of it still doesn't match up to what some other NES games managed to pull off...

And it's not like you need samples to make NES music sound good (although that helps a lot) just listen to what Tim Follin did, and I'm not talking about the arps, I'm talking about how he managed to make really great-sounding percussion by splitting its duty between the Noise and the Triangle, and he also often backed the triangle up with a pulse in order to give it even more punch and bass!

Need examples? Sure!
First off, some Sample-tastic Sunsoft Tunes:
^You can't get much better than this on the NES! (Without using extra-soundchips at least)

But you can get close:
And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

Quote from: Michirin
Also, neither Final Fight 1 nor 2 have bad soundtracks, I never said that,


Quote from: Michirin
Other than the first two Final Fight games their SNES soundtracks are all amazing!


 :roll:   Nice one, dummy.

Tell me, where is there an instance of me clearly stating: "Final Fight 1 and 2 have bad soundtracks" or something like that?
Barring them from "amazing" and saying "They're bad" is not the same thing, dummy...
They serve their in-game purpose well, but unlike FF3, MMX, MM7, SF2 and Demon's Crest, among others, they're not something I'd go out of my way to listen to outside of the game...

Also, "Yes, your opinion can be wrong, because this article by a person with an opinion said so"
You wanna discuss music taste? Everything is subjective, but of all the subjective things nothing is more so than music taste, you can ask somebody "Why do you like Pop music?" they may not be able to pin-point why, but just telling them that it's s*** and showing them some metal bollocks and telling them: "You should be listening to this! THIS is real good music, the music you like sucks because blahblahblah, and this music is good because blahblahblah" that's not gonna change their mind, that's only gonna make them want to dislike whatever you're showing them, and make them like the music they already like even more, even though you still think it's s***...

And guess what? They're not "wrong" for liking it, they'll never be, and their opinions don't "suck" because they're different from yours, or from a pre-established consensus, anyone can like whatever they want, and that's their own business, and if they can't explain why, SO WHAT? Why should they have to?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 09:34:48 PM by Michirin9801 »

ClodBuster

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2017, 12:22:21 AM »
I like Capcom's NES music, and dislike most of its SNES music, with only Street Fighter II (doesn't matter if World Warrior, Turbo or Super) being the exception of the rule.

And since 99% of the world population agrees on that, it is accepted as a fact and I don't need any further proof.

This is what this thread tells me.






Regarding Namco games on the PCE, I'm not really sold on any of them. Since I like the original Galaga a lot, I think Galaga '88 is my choice in the poll.

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Arkhan

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2017, 05:17:49 AM »
Is it lazy? Perhaps that was a little harsh,
It wasn't harsh.  It was ignorant. 

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Tell me, where is there an instance of me clearly stating: "Final Fight 1 and 2 have bad soundtracks" or something like that?
Barring them from "amazing" and saying "They're bad" is not the same thing, dummy...
The implications from the way you worded it are pretty clear if we use context clues from the rest of your adverb laden "my favoritist thing ever" posting style.   This again, is why I've repeatedly told you to try articulating a point instead of half-assedly saying shit and falling back on "huuuuu, its opinions" whenever it doesn't go well for you.   

Usually when anyone says "aside from X, this is great!", it means X wasn't great, and was bad.   

When a waiter asks how your dinner is and you go "it's great, except for the potatoes"... it usually results in you having to explain what's wrong with the potatoes, so they can fix it.

You ever see Summer School?   Dude's glasses break and he's upset.   He could just sit there and go MAN I HATE THEM.    Instead, the teacher tells him to write a well articulated letter about wtf is up.

He gets a bunch of free stuff.   All because he bothered to explain something.    It's a good life skill.

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Also, "Yes, your opinion can be wrong, because this article by a person with an opinion said so"
You are extremely intellectually lazy if you just use "opinion" as your defense mechanism for everything that opposes you.

You missed the point of why I posted the article, and the point of the article itself, apparently.  I can't fix that.  That's up to you to figure out.    :dance:


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You wanna discuss music taste? Everything is subjective, but of all the subjective things nothing is more so than music taste, you can ask somebody "Why do you like Pop music?" they may not be able to pin-point why, but just telling them that it's shit and showing them some metal bollocks and telling them: "You should be listening to this! THIS is real good music, the music you like sucks because blahblahblah, and this music is good because blahblahblah" that's not gonna change their mind, that's only gonna make them want to dislike whatever you're showing them, and make them like the music they already like even more, even though you still think it's shit...
Well, that's not really what I've done here, and as I said, you missed the point. 

Besides, you ever see those interviews at concerts where the interviewer is like "so why do you like X" , and they interview that burnout dude that's like "cause maaan, I just yeah I like em maaan", or the fangirl that's like "OMG OMG I LOVE THEM BECAUSE OMG YEAH I DO WOOOO" and the rest of the people in the line are staring at them cringing?

That's what you do basically, lol.   

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And guess what? They're not "wrong" for liking it, they'll never be, and their opinions don't "suck" because they're different from yours, or from a pre-established consensus, anyone can like whatever they want, and that's their own business, and if they can't explain why, SO WHAT? Why should they have to?
Because this is a discussion. .

It's much more interesting if you provide explanations/reasons for your amped up favorites, so people can talk more.  You may find out new crap, or get a new perspective, or something.   

You just don't like that you're not able to just spew your chock-full-of-adverb limply backed opinions without someone going "uh can you elaborate, or something?".

It's lazy. 

The only thing I said you were wrong about is your doofy criticism of Capcom on NES (and your dopey Final Fight thing).   

The rest, you're not wrong, I just disagree really heavily, and provided these crazy things called examples to explain why.   It's a great time.


PS: There isn't a swear jar on PCEFX.    You look like an idiot when you bleep out swear words.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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MobiusStripTech

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2017, 08:35:27 AM »
Everyone knows that the best Namco soundtracks were Dig Dug and Pac-Man. Why even question it? The samples in those are so epic!

I will be honest and say I don't get hating or "disliking" a game because you don't like the music. Turn the sound off? I love to play Megaman, but if the sound bothered be I could just not listen to it.

Also comparing the sound of an NES to an SNES is kind of silly. You are basically comparing apples to oranges. Sure they are both round and a fruit. So they are the same equivalent right?? The audio and video capabilities from one console to another crossing generations isn't really a great way to make a case for an argument. Honestly a better argument would be why Sega did such a bang up job screwing up the drivers for the same sound chip within a single generation.

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spenoza

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2017, 09:01:44 AM »
OK, first, let's get some perspective, here. We're talking about video game music in a way which is tied up in personal opinions related to enjoyment. I think Michirin is getting tangled up in something that tangles me up from time to time, which is trying to explain preferences. I'll use an example...

I don't like Seinfeld, the TV show. It's legendary and well-regarded, but I don't like it. One thing I don't say is that it's no good or that it sucks. But in trying to figure out why I don't like it, I've tried on a few explanations, stuff like, "the characters are all a$$holes." But in most comedy shows the characters are a$$holes, or at least acting like them, and the Seinfeld a$$hole-ness didn't get really a$$hole-y until a couple years in. I've tried for years to figure out WHY I don't like Seinfeld or Larry David's other comedic TV projects, but I can't tease it out. His characters are unlovable and unrelatable to me. The situations they find themselves in constantly make me uncomfortable and make me want to weasel out of my skin instead of laugh. But I can't explain it, and I've given up trying. At least in this particular case, I just don't like it.

On the other hand, Arkhan, if you're trying to get more info out of Michirin as to WHY she has the opinions she does, beating her over the head is not going to do it. That's not friendly engagement. That's aggression. Being "right" doesn't excuse it. An opportunity to explore why we like what we like is wasted because now everyone's defensive and ready to punch.
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Arkhan

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2017, 09:10:31 AM »
On the other hand, Arkhan, if you're trying to get more info out of Michirin as to WHY she has the opinions she does, beating her over the head is not going to do it. That's not friendly engagement. That's aggression. Being "right" doesn't excuse it. An opportunity to explore why we like what we like is wasted because now everyone's defensive and ready to punch.

*shrug*,  the info came out.  I don't really think the first post was so bad, and received a defensive  self righteous reply.   It's not really out of line with the tone other people use, including michirin.

Besides, If I didn't ask, nobody else sure as f*ck was going to bother.    There'd just be people scrolling by going yepyepyep opinions yepbrblrbrlrbyep because this forum has practically devolved into a circle jerk where nothing cool gets talked about anymore most of the time.

I find the whole falling back on "oh it's opinions" to justify a stance thing to be incredibly lazy if you can't even be f*cked to explain anything about your opinion. 

At that point it's like you just like hearing yourself blabber about your surface level likes/dislikes, and don't want to go any further. 

There's basically no point in talking if it's going to be "Everyones entitled to an opinion, thats your opinion, lets agree to disagree, etc." with some crap in between from people about what they like.

and, if you don't want to argue/debate something beyond stating your weakly backed opinions and dismissals of people who are at least adding substance to their statements, just ignore my post and go back to doing whatever it is you were doing before I spoke up.   

Replying (especially with a "well at least *I* won't be doing that!" tone) implies you want to dance.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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spenoza

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2017, 09:20:42 AM »
Also, I have an opinion. While I like Capcom's compositions, I really don't like their instrument sets on the SNES. I hate that electric guitar from the X series and Final Fight (that tons of folks just love to death). Done in FM synth in the arcade with some nice accompanying sampling, stuff like Final Fight, UN Squadron, and Street Fighter 2 sounds really good. On the SNES is sounds shrill, whiny, and cheap to me. Well, except Street Fighter 2. I think that SNES rendition was pretty good. And oddly, I like the UN Squadron SNES soundtrack despite the poor instrument selection. But in most cases, I'd just rather not listen to a Capcom SNES soundtrack. I suspect that they're using kind of a generic sample bank, but I could be wrong. Mostly I just don't like the sound of it. But the composition quality is fine.

As for the NES, though, seriously, give this episode a listen.  Capcom's early sound engines were pretty plain, and Mega Man even appears to have some errors or mistakes in the audio department. But their composition quality carried them through their early sound engines, and by the end of their NES development days their audio engine was decently capable.
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Arkhan

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2017, 09:26:42 AM »
I appreciate the attempt at guitar in MMX, but it kind of sucks.

Also, that synthbass seems to be slightly out of tune and doofy.   I once grabbed a sound font and tried using it only to find it's pitch seemed off compared to anything else I put with it.   Even when using only the sounds from the soundfont.   

Fortunately, it's a really stupidly easy sound to recreate with basically any analog synth that isn't a piece of shit.

I think without that bass sound, the street fighter soundtrack wouldn't have been as good as it was.

You end up with this:

Instead of:

Seriously, how the f*ck did that even happen lol.
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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spenoza

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2017, 09:34:25 AM »
Besides, If I didn't ask, nobody else sure as f*ck was going to bother.    There'd just be people scrolling by going yepyepyep opinions yepbrblrbrlrbyep because this forum has practically devolved into a circle jerk where nothing cool gets talked about anymore most of the time.

I agree with your frustration on this point. I get it. But getting up in people's faces to force them out backfires as often as it works. I guess I'm just not sure it actually furthers the discussion any more than it just starts a fight.

You've met me, you know how I am. I'm not just trying to piss in your Cheerios. I think you're smart and interesting and fun to talk to. And sometimes a jerk on the internet. It happens.
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spenoza

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Re: Favorite Namco PCE game?
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2017, 09:39:59 AM »
Oh, uhhhh... Namco. I brought this up on another forum recently. How the f*ck did Namco release HuCard titles all the way up to mid-1992 and not do a single CD game? What the Farnsworth, Namco? Seriously. I kinda wonder why they were so disinterested in the format. I notice they didn't have massive output on the SNES. Probably still stinging from losing preferred partner status from the NES days.
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