Just got into the Wonderswan/Colour and wanna talk about it

[lukester]

NGPC was always pretty cool. Gotta love Card Fighters, Mega Man Power Battles, Metal Slug 2 and Sonic!

Haven't played enough of the Wonderswan to be honest, but it's definitely more of a weeby console. I'm a big one piece fan, and while Swan Coliseum looks really nice, it feels more like a 2nd rate Smash Bros.
Judgement Silversword is cool but it's hardcore bullet hell. The Ghouls n Ghosts game is crazy slow.

[SignOfZeta]

The WS is like the PCE and the FX in one. The earlier period was dominated by action games which are now expensive and the later more tech capable titles are dumb menu driven anime crap.

Liking fighters is a prerequisite to NGP fandom, liking whatever anime Bandai has licensing rights to is kinda helpful for Swan enjoyment. 

[seieienbu]

You’re obsession with specs is weird. I think maybe people who plow through massive ROM libraries in emulators for handhelds without ever actually touching the real thing might have a slightly f*cked outlook because of it.

The thing that the NGPC is probably the worst at is being a system to go through and play every ROM for 30 seconds before making a "this is cool" or "this sucks" comment and then moving on.  Perhaps you played all the fighting games but really, how much can you learn playing a fighting game like that?  The genre isn't intended to be glanced and, played against the CPU for one match, then move on to the next one.  Playing the library in such a way is a disservice to yourself.

Beyond that, actually holding an NGPC and seeing what it can do when compared to what came both before and after is what makes the system special in my view.  There's really nothing comparable to NGPC on any handheld hardware that came before it.  When I tried playing Mortal Kombat on GB/GG or Street Fighter 2 on GB I instantly saw how inferior and unplayable those games were.  Playing those on car trips/whatever while I was a kid was miserable;  I really wanted Street Fighter on the go but it just didn't work.  I might have given up on all hope for a good way to play handheld fighting games at all except I finally got to play on the D-pad for the NGPC made specifically with fighters in mind.  Beyond that, the games were built from the ground up to take advantage of the platform's controls and suddenly I had something that is not only playable but also very fun.

Shortly after the NGPC came SF2 Revival, SFA3, and a few others on GBA and I'm once again back to playing a game on a platform that sucks at the game I'm trying to play.  The last handheld fighter I played was on PSP; I played Darkstalkers Chronicles briefly and then called it quits quickly due to how horrible the game felt.  The NGPC was the best at what it was trying to be good at.  It's still fun to play those games today which is far more than I can say for a lot of platforms.  No, it doesn't have the largest game library and it isn't a perfect system even for the era but what it did well was make playing portable fighting games fun.

If you like fighting games as a genre and are willing to experiment with old school platforms then I would highly recommend you pick up an NGPC on the cheap and a couple of fighters before making any decision on whether or not it is "kinda crap."  Play for a while, explore the game engines, see how easy it is to get the character to use the move you intend for them to use.  There's a lot to enjoy on the system and particularly in that genre.

[Michirin9801]

Why do you assume I've plown through the library and played just each game for 5 minutes before deciding whether it's good or bad? I've been playing the NGPC for quite a while now, I've played many of its titles multiple times, I'm fairly familiar with what they're like, and yeah, the fighters are mechanically sound and well-made, but due to its poor sound, low bit depth graphics and almost monochrome sprites, I've generally felt rather underwhelmed by the system...

And yes, the NGPC has better fighting games than the GBC, I never said otherwise, and I love fighting games as well, but the quality of fighting games aside, I don't feel that the NGPC is any more technically or graphically impressive than the GBC, even if it is more capable...

And honestly, as good as the NGPC fighting games may be, I still thought Guilty Gear Petit 2 and Pocket Fighter on the Wonderswan were better than pretty much everything the NGPC had to offer, and I didn't even have to play them for over a week to form that opinion...
And the GBA fighters, SF2 Revival and KoF EX2 in particular, wipe the floor with the NGPC... If you prefer the NGPC's control stick, that's fine, but I've been playing on D-pads my entire life, and the GBA SP has one of my favourite D-pads ever, I like it because it's clicky so it's more precise and I can consistently pull off my special moves in it, and I sure as hell can't say that about an arcade stick because I'm not a fan of them...

[SignOfZeta]

The GBA doesn’t even have enough buttons to play Street Fighter. The idea is a joke.

The NGP is the only system I’ll play a 2D fighter on. 3D stuff that’s mostly button sequences and tapping I can do on PSP no problem but the NGP is the only system I can land a ground FAB with ‘Gief in. That’s not a minor detail, it’s critical.

[turboswimbz]

I can't say I've had many experiences with these systems.  but I always felt like the NGP and wonderswan are pretty neat for what they are.  I wish more systems got the library that the BC + GBC got.  maybe we'd look at these systems somewhat differently if they had more games and were more accessible.   but sometimes also the lack of this makes systems enjoyable on a whole other level.  So I think you take the good and the bad and have fun with them all as much as you can.   

it’s critical.

[Michirin9801]

The GBA doesn’t even have enough buttons to play Street Fighter. The idea is a joke.

The only idea that's a joke is this notion that "you need X amount of buttons to play Y kind of game"
As you know, there are plenty of excellent fighters that only use 2 buttons, and heck even only ONE button, the game just has to be designed for this kind of control scheme, and Street Fighter can absolutely work with only two buttons, let alone 4, yes it's not going to be the same as the 6 button version, but it can work, and as the GBA proves, it can work REALLY well...

[lukester]

The GBA doesn’t even have enough buttons to play Street Fighter. The idea is a joke.

and heck even only ONE button

? but they don't exist?

[SignOfZeta]

The GBA doesn’t even have enough buttons to play Street Fighter. The idea is a joke.

The only idea that's a joke is this notion that "you need X amount of buttons to play Y kind of game"
As you know, there are plenty of excellent fighters that only use 2 buttons, and heck even only ONE button, the game just has to be designed for this kind of control scheme, and Street Fighter can absolutely work with only two buttons, let alone 4, yes it's not going to be the same as the 6 button version, but it can work, and as the GBA proves, it can work REALLY well...

I wasn't speaking in the abstract. You need six buttons to play a port of a six button game. There is no substitute. If the game is properly redesigned for fewer buttons (ie: all NGP fighters) then it works fine. You're probably not a mega hardcore fighting game fan if you're cool with missing 1/3 of the basic moves in order to have more color in the sprites.

[Michirin9801]

? but they don't exist?

Check out Shadow Fighter on the Amiga...

[Arkhan]

You’re obsession with specs is weird. I think maybe people who plow through massive ROM libraries in emulators for handhelds without ever actually touching the real thing might have a slightly f*cked outlook because of it.

Yep.

Yeah, I didn't have that experience, but that doesn't mean that my own experience with these systems, as 'unauthentic' as it may be, is not any less valid... I think emulating systems like these helps breathe new life into them, especially if you're like me and you're more interested in more limited hardware, emulating these systems helps you better appreciate the games for what they are, without having to deal with an unlit screen, a low-quality speaker and crappy buttons...

Unfortunately, as much as you don't like it and are trying to justify otherwise, your experience with these machines IS less valid, because you are not actually playing the systems.   You damned yourself while trying to justify it by admitting it is unauthentic.   

It's not like emulating a console where you can USB-a-controller, and fanagle it into being close enough.

There were 3rd party controllers left and right anyways.  and various TVs/sound systems/etc. one might use when using say, a Megadrive.    Emulating a home console has reached the point where you can basically faithfully recreate everything.

Dealing with the tiny unlit screens, possibly shitty buttons, and portable speakers is part of what truly forms an opinion of these machines.   That is the real experience.   Until you've tried playing them in a moving car, or in shitty lighting, you are missing out.   Until you've frantically tried getting to a savepoint or password screen because the batteries are about to shit-out on you, you're also missing out.   90s handheld gaming was basically our Vietnam.

You're foregoing all that to just compare the software, and a bunch of technical-spec wanking that reeks of 'phile tendencies and throws practicality out the window. 

You're not "breathing new life" into them by emulating them.    You're basically just playing shittier versions of games when you don't need to be.   

We were playing Gameboy/NGPC and downgraded games because Supaboys and shit weren't invented yet.   If we had the option to take SNES portably around, we would have.

Turbo Express/Sega Nomad were f*ckin cool and ahead of their time.   It's a shame their battery lives were not.

What you need to do is emulate a NGPC on a tiny LCD screen with the brightness set to 5%, smash one of your speakers with a hammer, and sit in direct sunlight.   

The only idea that's a joke is this notion that "you need X amount of buttons to play Y kind of game"
As you know, there are plenty of excellent fighters that only use 2 buttons, and heck even only ONE button, the game just has to be designed for this kind of control scheme, and Street Fighter can absolutely work with only two buttons, let alone 4, yes it's not going to be the same as the 6 button version, but it can work, and as the GBA proves, it can work REALLY well...

"REALLY well" is what we call "a f*ckING stretch".    It worked, but it's clumsy and goes against how anyone who is used to Street Fighter is going to expect to be playing the game.

Downsizing control schemes of 6 button fighters is pretty lacking.   There is a reason people buy Ave6 pads.   

It's fine when the game was intended to be a 2 button fighter.
 
NGPC fighters were basically an anomaly in that their design + the NGPC itself made them work well.  However, they're still doofy compared to the real deal, which again goes back to my point that you're emulating watered down stuff when you don't need to, lol.

and as Zeta said, I am thinking you aren't really a hardcore fighting game fan.   Liking playing them and bopping your way through them successfully is not quite the same thing.

It's like kids screaming about loving skateboarding as they putz around a driveway or alleyway, without ever dropping into a halfpipe, or flying through the air off a ramp.   It's a whole different world, and you sort of sound like you have a lack of understanding of the borderline 'tism shit that goes on with fighting games.

Also, those 1 button fighters are dogshit.   That stuff is for potatoes.  Most experiences on the Amiga are basically dogshit compared to anything else at the time.  Generally, the people who talk about how great that stuff is are actually just talking about how the visuals and sounds were, because the games themselves play pretty piss-poor almost always.




lol.

[DragonmasterDan]

Some years ago, using only a meager crappy cell phone I made a video comparing the three Wonderswan models after having just obtained a SwanCrystal at the time.

Here is the result.

[Michirin9801]

I wasn't speaking in the abstract. You need six buttons to play a port of a six button game.

No you don't

If the game is properly redesigned for fewer buttons (ie: all NGP fighters) then it works fine.

Because of that exactly!
Pocket Fighter and the GBC port of Street Fighter Alpha managed to translate Street Fighter's Control scheme to two buttons, you might be missing some move variants, but they both still work as very decent fighters, and since the GBA has 4 buttons you can get even more move variants in there!

Unfortunately, as much as you don't like it and are trying to justify otherwise, your experience with these machines IS less valid, because you are not actually playing the systems.   You damned yourself while trying to justify it by admitting it is unauthentic.   

No, it's NOT less valid, it's different, but I've played the games, therefore I can have an opinion about them.

You're not "breathing new life" into them by emulating them.    You're basically just playing shittier versions of games when you don't need to be.   

We were playing Gameboy/NGPC and downgraded games because Supaboys and shit weren't invented yet.   If we had the option to take SNES portably around, we would have.

I don't have to "need" to play a handheld version of a console or arcade game to be interested in it and enjoy playing it, and if the game is good, but trapped on a handheld that has an unlit screen, a crappy speaker and wonky buttons, you ARE breathing new life into it by emulating it, because you can then better appreciate the game for what it is! It served its purpose on being a handheld version of a "better" game back then, but if it's still good, there's still reason to play it!

Also, this notion completely undermines the system exclusives, here's an example, Guilty Gear Petit 2 is an original Wonderswan Colour game, and it's already become my favourite in the series thus far! Granted I've only played 5 other games in the series, most of them on handhelds, so I could still maybe find another game in the series that I like even better whenever I get around to playing more, but right now, I like that game better than the others in the series that I've played...

Downsizing control schemes of 6 button fighters is pretty lacking.

If you do it wrong... But if you do it right, as mentioned above, it can work, and the GBA version of Street Fighter II DID work! Will I pick it over the SNES version? I'll pick it over The New Challengers, but not over Hyper Fighting, but I can't take the SNES on-the-go now can I? (No, the Supaboy is too big and bulky and you look like an idiot carrying it around)

Thankfully I can play the PCE version with 6 buttons on my 3DS, even if the sound is crippled by a bad emulator, so there's still a reason for me to play SF2 Turbo Revival...

Yeah, with less buttons it's not gonna be the same, but it doesn't have to be the same, it just has to be good, and to me, not only are the GBA (and Wonderswan) fighters good, they're better than the NGPC ones...

Also, those 1 button fighters are dogshit.   That stuff is for potatoes.  Most experiences on the Amiga are basically dogshit compared to anything else at the time.  Generally, the people who talk about how great that stuff is are actually just talking about how the visuals and sounds were, because the games themselves play pretty piss-poor almost always.

lol.

Yeah sure, throw in the bad ports of SF2, but omit the GOOD fighters that were designed for 1 button...
Again, see Shadow Fighter:

Honestly, with this whole argument you guys just sound like: "REEEEE! You've not played the systems the same way I did, so you're playing it wrong!"
And THAT is what I call a "slightly f***ed outlook"
Neither do you know how I played it, nor is it important, what's important is that I've played the games, and I have something to say about them, nothing more, nothing less... I can accept that you don't agree with what I'm saying, and I respect your opinion on whatever the subject matter is, but what I CANNOT accept is you telling me that I'm having a "less valid" experience just because it's not the same one that you had...

Also: "REEEE! You're not a real Fighting Game Fan because you like playing with less buttons!"
You can't judge fandom like that... First of all, I don't dislike the NGPC fighters, I just think the WS and GBA ones are better...
I could care less about how many buttons a game has, what I care more about is whether or not the game is fun to play, and I think Fighting Games are a LOT of fun to play, regardless of how many buttons they have! And yeah, they put Street Fighter II and Alpha III on the GBA, and they were still good! They were still fun to play! I'm less fond of Alpha III because the PSP has a much better version, so I mostly stick to SFII and KoF EX2 on the GBA...

[Michirin9801]

Some years ago, using only a meager crappy cell phone I made a video comparing the three Wonderswan models after having just obtained a SwanCrystal at the time.

Here is the result.

Wow... The difference between the Swan Crystal and the Swan Colour is stunning!

[SignOfZeta]

It really is. The only downside is that they only offered terrible case colors after so many cool ones for the earlier systems.