Component Video & RGB OSSC VS FRAMEMEISTER Comparison

[Arkhan]

It’s hard to find anything elitist about advocating scrap-bound TVs from 20 years ago...but sometimes I get that from people. Like...they make it seem like owning a CRT is as expensive and as much of a commitment as owning a vintage Ferrari or something. “Just not practical” they say but for no specific reason. (This coming from people who are running out of HD space for all the pictures and videos they’ve taken with their cardboard box collections.) I don’t know what the “upkeep” thing is, like you have to lube and balance a CRT every three months or something. It’s just just a damned TV. Your grandmother managed to own and operate the things for decades and she never even learned to read. Think about that.

When CRT+elitism comes up, it's never about actual TVs.  It's about those dinguses that scoff at a fully functional 30" Zenith in favor of a 9" BVM.

Funny enough, the CRT I hooked my VCR up to was my grandparents.  It's the one I used to play NES on at their house, and Sega CD when I would drag it there to finish Lunar 2. 

I didn't get rid of my CRT televisions.   I just moved them to another room since home entertainment and new consoles went HD, so having the main setup by the couch required something that wasn't the Sanyo CRT.

The XRGB3 sits at that TV so I can conveniently jam something into it and play stuff.   I don't keep all my old shit hooked up simultaneously anymore because I got tired of wall-wart Tetris, and RF box daisy chain tai-chi.   I plug in the one I am playing and the rest sit on a shelf nearby.

My secondary CRT at the moment is basically perfect and I got it for free this year, Toshiba. It’s about the same volume, slightly more, as that hot air cooker I got for XMas three years ago which cost who knows what and is definitely a created want, as is looking for fixes for games looking terrible on screens 16 times the size of the largest thing existent when the game was made.

If you have room in your life, both physically and psychically, for complete game collections and a 70” TV you have room for an old Commodore monitor. 

lol.  I dumped all my commodore / rgb monitors because they will inevitably die and suck to replace.  Replacing a basic ass TV is simple though.  Just drive around the block on garbage night and you'll find one. 

People that go chasing dragons with PVMs and shit are basically retarded.   Watching people drop 500$+ on a like, 10" screen that was in constant use at a broadcast place is hilarious.  they all need serviced and shit.  That high pitched hngggggggggggggggggg noise isn't "the glory days".   It's your overpriced screen begging for help.

They post pics and go CHECK OUT MY PVM SCORE, and its like yeah buddy, check out that /  \ or )( or () shaped screen.  You did it buddy.  Nailed it. 

My absolute favorite is when they post pics of their screen that got shipped to them via UPS, packed by an idiot, and it shows up in pieces.

I've gone back and done sanity checks myself.   Recently, I hooked up an SNES to XRGB3+60" TV, and then to a PVM I recently sold, and then to my 27" Sanyo via composite and RF.

Unless you're doing a side by side comparison, it's a whole lot of "who f*cking cares" when you get right down to it.

Nothing about the PVM made me think "shit, I better keep this".   The 350$ I got for it was way cooler than the image quality.

It's almost like when you go to the eye doctor and he's like "whats better, 1, or 2?" and you just pick one because you can't tell.

I'm going to start streaming shit running through RF on this magnavox TV just to see how many RGBPVMBLTADHD people I can get upset all at once.

I might even twist the RF box a little so it goes staticky.  Who knows.  The sky's the limit.

[nopepper]

There are a couple of things I really like about the PVM as opposed to a consumer CRT, besides its marginal increase in image quality:

-its flat on the sides, so its very easy and safe to flip for vertical/tate gaming.
-its got every connection needed, composite, svideo, component and RGB. If you dont care for RGB, then this is definitely a moot point...

I do agree that just the marginal increase in image quality is probably not worth the extra cost. I paid $100 for mine and feel like the cost is justified, even if it only lasts me a couple more years. Then I can try to find another one or a consumer CRT for cheap. If not, the OSSC or other scaling solution will do. It's always good to have choices.

[Necromancer]

Nice comparo pics.  Both upscalers look good to me (either rgb or composite fed), though the framemeister has somewhat better looking colors.

As for the tube tv / pvm / lcd discussion, I don't really give a f*ck what people use as long as they're actually gaming and not proselytizing about how great what they're using is and that you're a retarded a$$hole if you do anything else.  Personally, I prefer a tube tv; the extra size and weight (vs lcd) doesn't bother me, and the additional cost of a pvm and rgb mods isn't worth it for the small improvement, not to mention the rarity of large PVMs.

[Arkhan]

I hooked a PS1 up to one of those Ikegami monitors once.

It was too good looking.   It looked f*cking *weird*.   

I still enjoy that people thought my PCE beefcase was RGB'd on a 1084S once.   It was just composite.   

That's how good composite on PCE ends up being.   The RGB jump wasn't worth having my Beefcase modded, honestly.   

I basically dismiss anyone when they say "consumer grade TV".   Those people are dipshits.

Then they start ramblef*cking about other CRT related specs.  I think they enjoy that more than gaming.

The gaming just gives them another dickheaded angle to elitist-knob-polish.

BROH I GOT THIS 1200230$ BVM AND BROHHHHHHH LOOK AT MY RGB'D X68000 PC RUNNING THIS RARE BULLETHELLSHUMPLOL

"theres no controller how are you playing it"

WHAT DUDE LOOK AT THAT IMAGE.  YOU CAN'T GET THIS ON A CONSUMER GRADE TV.

[nopepper]

Yeah, I have a 1080 and everything looks great on it through composite. I just love the glow that little monitor gives. It being 13" probably has a lot to do with how great it looks.

[Arkhan]

Those Commodore monitors are pretty good.  The 1080 had the best quality of any of them.

We had a 1084S with our Amiga500.   I got a 1080 way later from someone and was like "shit this is way better", but it was mono so that sucked.  1084S was stereo and had a headphone jack!

My 1084S died in the middle of playing Hydlide 2, and then the 1084SD-1 died while demo'ing Atlantean at CCAG.

It was a sad time.   but someone bought it broken.

[Gypsy]

When CRT+elitism comes up, it's never about actual TVs.  It's about those dinguses that scoff at a fully functional 30" Zenith in favor of a 9" BVM.

Yeah, loooool.

lol.  I dumped all my commodore / rgb monitors because they will inevitably die and suck to replace.  Replacing a basic ass TV is simple though.  Just drive around the block on garbage night and you'll find one. 

People that go chasing dragons with PVMs and shit are basically retarded.   Watching people drop 500$+ on a like, 10" screen that was in constant use at a broadcast place is hilarious.  they all need serviced and shit.  That high pitched hngggggggggggggggggg noise isn't "the glory days".   It's your overpriced screen begging for help.

They post pics and go CHECK OUT MY PVM SCORE, and its like yeah buddy, check out that /  \ or )( or () shaped screen.  You did it buddy.  Nailed it. 

My absolute favorite is when they post pics of their screen that got shipped to them via UPS, packed by an idiot, and it shows up in pieces.

I've gone back and done sanity checks myself.   Recently, I hooked up an SNES to XRGB3+60" TV, and then to a PVM I recently sold, and then to my 27" Sanyo via composite and RF.

Unless you're doing a side by side comparison, it's a whole lot of "who f*cking cares" when you get right down to it.

Nothing about the PVM made me think "shit, I better keep this".   The 350$ I got for it was way cooler than the image quality.

It's almost like when you go to the eye doctor and he's like "whats better, 1, or 2?" and you just pick one because you can't tell.

I'm going to start streaming shit running through RF on this magnavox TV just to see how many RGBPVMBLTADHD people I can get upset all at once.

I might even twist the RF box a little so it goes staticky.  Who knows.  The sky's the limit.

I'm pretty convinced that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a pvm and a vga crt monitor if not for the fact that the general look is different. Just about any old pack-in monitor with a pre-built PC is going to do the job good enough for old systems.

After looking on eBay, it's probably about time to unload my PVM locally if I can. I thought you were half-joking on current prices but I see the 14'' model I have is popping for $400+ lately... And the one I have is in fantastic condition. But is it worth dealing with the f*cktard responses I'm going to get. HMM.

I do agree that just the marginal increase in image quality is probably not worth the extra cost. I paid $100 for mine and feel like the cost is justified, even if it only lasts me a couple more years. Then I can try to find another one or a consumer CRT for cheap. If not, the OSSC or other scaling solution will do. It's always good to have choices.

$100 is reasonable. Quality does cost money. But like $400 for a 14'' screen that tops out at 480i is pretty lol.

I hooked a PS1 up to one of those Ikegami monitors once.

It was too good looking.   It looked f*cking *weird*.   

I still enjoy that people thought my PCE beefcase was RGB'd on a 1084S once.   It was just composite.   

That's how good composite on PCE ends up being.   The RGB jump wasn't worth having my Beefcase modded, honestly.   

I basically dismiss anyone when they say "consumer grade TV".   Those people are dipshits.

Then they start ramblef*cking about other CRT related specs.  I think they enjoy that more than gaming.

The gaming just gives them another dickheaded angle to elitist-knob-polish.

BROH I GOT THIS 1200230$ BVM AND BROHHHHHHH LOOK AT MY RGB'D X68000 PC RUNNING THIS RARE BULLETHELLSHUMPLOL

"theres no controller how are you playing it"

WHAT DUDE LOOK AT THAT IMAGE.  YOU CAN'T GET THIS ON A CONSUMER GRADE TV.

PCE composite is hot.

[jperryss]

I'm pretty convinced that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a pvm and a vga crt monitor if not for the fact that the general look is different. Just about any old pack-in monitor with a pre-built PC is going to do the job good enough for old systems.

A decent VGA CRT monitor should crush just about any PVM/BVM in picture quality due to the finer pitch. The top-of-the-line BVMs that idiots are literally spending thousands of dollars on today were around .25mm which is similar to a halfway-decent VGA monitor. My Viewsonic 22" is .23mm and I paid $40 for it. Emulation with the right settings and filters looks insanely sharp on it, but for playing on original hardware, it's not necessarily cheaper than a PVM since you still need to buy an upscaler and not everyone is spending thousands of even hundreds of dollars for decent 20" PVMs.

After looking on eBay, it's probably about time to unload my PVM locally if I can. I thought you were half-joking on current prices but I see the 14'' model I have is popping for $400+ lately... And the one I have is in fantastic condition. But is it worth dealing with the f*cktard responses I'm going to get. HMM.

Prices are ridiculous right now, but 14s aren't selling for $400 except maybe the L5 or BVM-D14 which are multiformat and can display up to 720p/1080i, and only desperate fools are spending even that much.

[SignOfZeta]

Who cares about fine pitch when the signal is only 240 lines!?! Why is $400 crazy for a PVM that originally cost $3000 but not for a box from Micomsoft that you wouldn’t even need if you had just bought/kept the right TV? Ditching Commodore screens because they would die and be hard to replace so get shittier TVs that will die even faster and be even harder to directly replace?

Some of the shit in this thread makes zero sense to me. Zero. I’m going to go play some games.

[jperryss]

Who cares about fine pitch when the signal is only 240 lines!?! Why is $400 crazy for a PVM that originally cost $3000 but not for a box from Micomsoft that you wouldn’t even need if you had just bought/kept the right TV? Ditching Commodore screens because they would die and be hard to replace so get shittier TVs that will die even faster and be even harder to directly replace?

Some of the shit in this thread makes zero sense to me. Zero. I’m going to go play some games.

High dot pitch/stripe pitch = thick scanlines = BVM guys wetting their pants. Dot pitch and vertical resolution are two completely different things. The original price PVMs sold for is basically meaningless since these are now 15-20 years old and have almost no demand in the broadcast/medical industries they were originally designed for and sold to. $400 is crazy for a 13" gaming monitor. $400 is crazy for a magic box that adds scanlines. Go play some games.

I'm not anti-PVM, like I said above I use one and I've owned a bunch. 8/16 bit gaming looks fantastic on them. But there's some real craziness going on with the prices lately and people are quick to justify it with things like "but these cost like $20K new".

[Gypsy]

A decent VGA CRT monitor should crush just about any PVM/BVM in picture quality due to the finer pitch. The top-of-the-line BVMs that idiots are literally spending thousands of dollars on today were around .25mm which is similar to a halfway-decent VGA monitor. My Viewsonic 22" is .23mm and I paid $40 for it. Emulation with the right settings and filters looks insanely sharp on it, but for playing on original hardware, it's not necessarily cheaper than a PVM since you still need to buy an upscaler and not everyone is spending thousands of even hundreds of dollars for decent 20" PVMs.

That does look nice.

Well, you could just get a basic line doubler, it depends on what all you would want to hook up to it. I was just bringing it up as a comparison point. I've spent $0 on all the VGA crt monitors I currently have and they look great.

Prices are ridiculous right now, but 14s aren't selling for $400 except maybe the L5 or BVM-D14 which are multiformat and can display up to 720p/1080i, and only desperate fools are spending even that much.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=pvm%2014m4u&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

Seems like a derp spike lately. Honestly I wouldn't even need $400 for it for it to be worth selling to me.

Who cares about fine pitch when the signal is only 240 lines!?! Why is $400 crazy for a PVM that originally cost $3000 but not for a box from Micomsoft that you wouldn’t even need if you had just bought/kept the right TV? Ditching Commodore screens because they would die and be hard to replace so get shittier TVs that will die even faster and be even harder to directly replace?

That was kind of my point. There isn't a huge difference at all that many people will notice so why go to all the trouble of committing the time to track down a pvm in good condition. It's much easier to get a computer monitor and something to hook up consoles to it. I don't mind having a PVM, and it looks great, but I don't think they are really worth it at current "market value".

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'd love to have some commodore monitors on the cheap. I'd use them until they went under. Wouldn't go out of my way or pay much for one though.

Also I wouldn't pay retail for a micomsoft box.

I’m going to go play some games.

There ya go. I should too. I think some Final Lap Twin.

[jperryss]

Well, you could just get a basic line doubler, it depends on what all you would want to hook up to it. I was just bringing it up as a comparison point. I've spent $0 on all the VGA crt monitors I currently have and they look great.

Totally agree. VGA monitors are overlooked and they're good for more than just emulation if you're willing to buy some extra hardware. Hopefully prices don't start getting crazy on those too as more people realize how capable they are.

[Arkhan]

Who cares about fine pitch when the signal is only 240 lines!?! Why is $400 crazy for a PVM that originally cost $3000 but not for a box from Micomsoft that you wouldn’t even need if you had just bought/kept the right TV?

The XRGB3 offers some useful features that make it worth the <400$ price tag. 

It has plenty of connections, including allowing me to plug in and upscale a PSP to my TV so I can play RPGs on not-handhelds.    It makes doing a convention demo setup much easier in terms of space usage in my car, and on the table.   

It's also a bit future proof and makes me not have to worry about "ah f*ck I don't have a thing to plug this into".

It doesn't require f*cking BNC connectors either.   I hate those things.

It even opens up the ability to slap shit on any CRT monitor with a VGA connector.  Not just ones that go for stupid amounts of money.   This is great for computers like MSX or X68000.

The boxes also don't require immediate or soon-to-be-needed maintenance.   Most PVMs you find need a bunch of crap done to them because they've been around the block, or they got jarred around a lot.   Proper maintenance on a PVM can basically afford you an XRGB now. 

Also, you don't even need an XRGB3 really.   You can get a f*ckin doofy XRGB1 and it will do what is needed.  You lose out on scanlines, but there's like a 40$ doodad that does that shit too IIRC.

Or just slap it on a CRT monitor of your ThriftStore's choosing. 

Ditching Commodore screens because they would die and be hard to replace so get shittier TVs that will die even faster and be even harder to directly replace?

Because I can get a replacement CRT TV with the same kind of composite quality, or better, and also component input + svideo... for like 10$ or freefromgarbage(TM), and I can't do the same with a 1084S.

Also, 1084S is tiny.  A like, 25+" TV shits all over a Commodore monitor.

The S-D1 is unable to actually sync to an MSX signal, and uses stupid DB-9s in the first place.  Sometimes it's female, other times its male. 

A 1080 isn't even stereo.   So you have to dick off with that too.

So, f*cking off with repairs on them vs. unloading them for like 200$+ a pop? 

for 200$, I can get a garage full of competent CRT TVs that will outlive the 1084, and look better.

[Gypsy]

$200 for a Commodore monitor? Damn.

[Arkhan]

$200 for a Commodore monitor? Damn.

Yep.  It's hard to keep something you know is going to crap the hell out when you have some dude offering you 200$ for it because "it matches his Amiga"