Author Topic: Super SD System 3  (Read 22174 times)

Punch

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2017, 03:39:50 PM »
Looks absolutely fantastic! It's perfect considering I don't have a CD console (I play all that stuff on the laptop). I'll have to pick one up down the road if the price is a bit cheaper, and sell the everdrive.

Anyone know if this thing plays Altered Beast?


Everything can play Altered Beast:


The ultra rare second revision of the game that works on every system card has been dumped.

Black Tiger

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2017, 06:17:34 PM »
I don't know if it will be useful to a whole lot of people besides me, but one cool thing about this product is that it creates an all-new C-sync signal out of the internal H and V digital sync signals.

The PCE's composite video signal and even its own internal digital C-sync have a flaw where one H-sync pulse at the top of every frame gets removed, and this can cause trouble on displays or converters that are expecting a perfect sync signal. The internal digital H and V sync signals, however, don't have this flaw, so it should be possible to create a perfect signal from them.

Would this potentially ruin flicker effects programmed around the timing of the original signal?
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SamIAm

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2017, 06:59:40 PM »
Would this potentially ruin flicker effects programmed around the timing of the original signal?

Happily, it would have zero effect on that. Internally, all the timing for horizontal and vertical interrupts is completely regular. It's only when H and V sync get combined into C sync at the output stage that things get funky.

This is what the PCE's internal sync signals look like when recorded by a logic analyzer. You've got separate H and V sync, then the combined C sync at the bottom that gets mixed with composite video pretty much as-is. Bearing in mind that it's falling edges that the TV counts, compare the number of falling edges in the H sync line to the C sync line. C sync is missing one pulse at the end of the long V sync period.




TVs built to accept broadcast signals sent out over the airwaves have a robust error-correction circuit for sync called AFC, or automatic frequency control. It's primarily to prevent interference from triggering a horizontal refresh at the wrong time, but some older game consoles (and VCRs, too) rely on AFC to fix quirks in the sync signal timing.

Without it, you get this. I took this picture myself of a PCE running on an Ikegami studio master monitor built after 2000:



But again, this is just because of the weird way that the system combines the H and V sync pulses. To the software and even the part of the video processor that draws the picture itself, it's completely invisible.

If you really want to get crazy, the NES and SNES usually draw one horizontal line in 1364 ticks of the 21MHz master clock, but there is one line near the top of the screen that alternates between 1364 ticks and 1360 ticks in length every other frame. Apparently it was made this way to reduce dot-crawl, but it can cause a tiny amount of jitter in the top few displayed lines on very sensitive displays that aren't built with strong AFC.

The crazy thing is, it's not just an early pulse; the processing time for that horizontal line itself is 4 ticks short, too. There's no way to turn it off, but a guy over on the shmups.com forums has come up with a very interesting fix that works in both systems: with an FPGA, he basically cuts off the master clock signal and halts the entire system for 4 ticks every time that short line gets drawn. The system can't even tell the difference.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 07:11:45 PM by SamIAm »

turboswimbz

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2017, 12:46:33 AM »
interesting peace of hardware. Too expensive for me to validate getting one. Maybe when the price drops.

Has anyone seen this? https://starforcepi.wordpress.com/2017/04/19/the-pc-engine-sd/ Don't think it does CD games though.

I forget which forum, but the guy does these as a side hobby he has a bunch of systems he's redone like that.  and goes into more detail of each build.  I always wonder if it's worth getting plans like this and seeing about the practicality of actually building these things.   
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touko

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2017, 01:33:59 AM »
If you want more info about this device :





It's like an everdrive, but also for scdrom²(BRAM and ADPCM) and AC,a next step for hombrews .
a little bit expensive 240€, but not really if you consider all that it offer.
A scdrom²+AC+everdrive+rvb, i thing they cost mush more .

It feature:
HuCard Games
CD Games
Super CD Games
Arcade CD Games
Quality RGB
Amplified Sound
Save RAM Support
System Card Support (Additional RAM and BIOS)

Black Tiger

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2017, 05:39:56 AM »
Would this potentially ruin flicker effects programmed around the timing of the original signal?

Happily, it would have zero effect on that. Internally, all the timing for horizontal and vertical interrupts is completely regular. It's only when H and V sync get combined into C sync at the output stage that things get funky.

This is what the PCE's internal sync signals look like when recorded by a logic analyzer. You've got separate H and V sync, then the combined C sync at the bottom that gets mixed with composite video pretty much as-is. Bearing in mind that it's falling edges that the TV counts, compare the number of falling edges in the H sync line to the C sync line. C sync is missing one pulse at the end of the long V sync period.



TVs built to accept broadcast signals sent out over the airwaves have a robust error-correction circuit for sync called AFC, or automatic frequency control. It's primarily to prevent interference from triggering a horizontal refresh at the wrong time, but some older game consoles (and VCRs, too) rely on AFC to fix quirks in the sync signal timing.

Without it, you get this. I took this picture myself of a PCE running on an Ikegami studio master monitor built after 2000:

But again, this is just because of the weird way that the system combines the H and V sync pulses. To the software and even the part of the video processor that draws the picture itself, it's completely invisible.

If you really want to get crazy, the NES and SNES usually draw one horizontal line in 1364 ticks of the 21MHz master clock, but there is one line near the top of the screen that alternates between 1364 ticks and 1360 ticks in length every other frame. Apparently it was made this way to reduce dot-crawl, but it can cause a tiny amount of jitter in the top few displayed lines on very sensitive displays that aren't built with strong AFC.

The crazy thing is, it's not just an early pulse; the processing time for that horizontal line itself is 4 ticks short, too. There's no way to turn it off, but a guy over on the shmups.com forums has come up with a very interesting fix that works in both systems: with an FPGA, he basically cuts off the master clock signal and halts the entire system for 4 ticks every time that short line gets drawn. The system can't even tell the difference.

Does this mean that capturing video at 60fps might not result in flicker effects cutting in and out?




If you want more info about this device :





It's like an everdrive, but also for scdrom²(BRAM and ADPCM) and AC,a next step for hombrews .
a little bit expensive 240€, but not really if you consider all that it offer.
A scdrom²+AC+everdrive+rvb, i thing they cost mush more .

It feature:
HuCard Games
CD Games
Super CD Games
Arcade CD Games
Quality RGB
Amplified Sound
Save RAM Support
System Card Support (Additional RAM and BIOS)

You should click the link in the opening post. It has all of this and more.
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touko

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2017, 06:50:53 AM »
I did it, it's only a discussion no ??

EDIT:damn you're right  :wink:
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 06:52:32 AM by touko »

gex

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2017, 06:55:17 AM »
I'll be doing a decent amount of traveling this year, definitely will consider this depending how light I have to travel. I'll most likely be staying in hostels, and other similar places. So I was just thinking about getting Jodi to deck out my TurboExpress with mods; prefer gaming on a TV but whatever. I wouldn't need its portability as I wouldn't be playing on the go, just when I have downtime or after a long day. Should always be around a TV.

So one option would be to bring a PCE with this Super SD thing, a multi tap and some controllers. I don't think i'll be able to squeeze in a Duo with a bunch of CD-R's. Might get bumped around a little bit too, so being able to play CD's without a CD player would be ideal.

Very cool seeing this get made
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 08:15:48 AM by gex »

NightWolve

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2017, 08:15:57 AM »
Damn, when did Sam get as technical as elmer or Bonknuts ??

Would this potentially ruin flicker effects programmed around the timing of the original signal?

Happily, it would have zero effect on that. Internally, all the timing for horizontal and vertical interrupts is completely regular. It's only when H and V sync get combined into C sync at the output stage that things get funky.

This is what the PCE's internal sync signals look like when recorded by a logic analyzer. You've got separate H and V sync, then the combined C sync at the bottom that gets mixed with composite video pretty much as-is. Bearing in mind that it's falling edges that the TV counts, compare the number of falling edges in the H sync line to the C sync line. C sync is missing one pulse at the end of the long V sync period.




TVs built to accept broadcast signals sent out over the airwaves have a robust error-correction circuit for sync called AFC, or automatic frequency control. It's primarily to prevent interference from triggering a horizontal refresh at the wrong time, but some older game consoles (and VCRs, too) rely on AFC to fix quirks in the sync signal timing.

Without it, you get this. I took this picture myself of a PCE running on an Ikegami studio master monitor built after 2000:



But again, this is just because of the weird way that the system combines the H and V sync pulses. To the software and even the part of the video processor that draws the picture itself, it's completely invisible.

If you really want to get crazy, the NES and SNES usually draw one horizontal line in 1364 ticks of the 21MHz master clock, but there is one line near the top of the screen that alternates between 1364 ticks and 1360 ticks in length every other frame. Apparently it was made this way to reduce dot-crawl, but it can cause a tiny amount of jitter in the top few displayed lines on very sensitive displays that aren't built with strong AFC.

The crazy thing is, it's not just an early pulse; the processing time for that horizontal line itself is 4 ticks short, too. There's no way to turn it off, but a guy over on the shmups.com forums has come up with a very interesting fix that works in both systems: with an FPGA, he basically cuts off the master clock signal and halts the entire system for 4 ticks every time that short line gets drawn. The system can't even tell the difference.

Flare65

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2017, 10:07:58 AM »
Dumb question...

How would I go converting my SCD/CD games to some sort of file to place on the memory card for this thing?

Keith Courage

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2017, 11:18:35 AM »
Dumb question...

How would I go converting my SCD/CD games to some sort of file to place on the memory card for this thing?

I was kind of wondering what type of file format it used for this as well. It's got to be something that isn't too uncommon though. Otherwise people would have too many issues getting it to work.

NightWolve

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2017, 11:36:52 AM »
http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=1604.0
http://www.ysutopia.net/software/TurboRip.zip

TurboRip ISO/WAV/CUE images should work since it supports standard BIN/CUE format. :)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 12:23:57 PM by NightWolve »

SamIAm

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2017, 12:09:31 PM »
Does this mean that capturing video at 60fps might not result in flicker effects cutting in and out?

I can say with confidence that that definitely wouldn't happen. There is no way that anything is depending on this pulse being missing. It's purely a matter of all period-TVs being able to ignore the flaw.

In fact, recombining H and V sync might increase compatibility with capture devices. Are there any devices out there that can record Mega Drive video but not PCE? Mega Drive doesn't have this quirk.


Damn, when did Sam get as technical as elmer or Bonknuts ??

Ha ha. Getting the PCE to display on that Ikegami monitor was something of an obsession for a while. I even tried doing minor mods on the deflection circuitry to fix the issue.

It turns out that there is one particular model of Extron box that can fix it, at least for this particular monitor. It's the 160xi. For some reason, other boxes do things slightly differently and don't help.

lukester

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2017, 12:21:53 PM »
I'll be doing a decent amount of traveling this year, definitely will consider this depending how light I have to travel. I'll most likely be staying in hostels, and other similar places. So I was just thinking about getting Jodi to deck out my TurboExpress with mods; prefer gaming on a TV but whatever. I wouldn't need its portability as I wouldn't be playing on the go, just when I have downtime or after a long day. Should always be around a TV.

So one option would be to bring a PCE with this Super SD thing, a multi tap and some controllers. I don't think i'll be able to squeeze in a Duo with a bunch of CD-R's. Might get bumped around a little bit too, so being able to play CD's without a CD player would be ideal.

Very cool seeing this get made

3DS with pce emulator? A laptop and a playstation pad?

LowRes

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Re: Super SD System 3
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2017, 12:43:17 PM »
The super SD system 3 looks awesome and looks like it’s going to be a quality product.  Perfect for somebody starting out that just wants to play the games or somebody who doesn’t like to deal with repairs or replacing capacitors.  The price is high though, I rather spend that kind of money to get something I’m missing like the super cd-rom2 system, or a supergrafx.  I actually like fixing Japan junk :)
Started a US TurboGrafx-16 Collection in 2017! ... Then I moved on to PC Engine