Author Topic: PCE latecomers  (Read 1340 times)

nodtveidt

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2006, 02:40:15 PM »
Yes, the story wasn't there, but if you play fighting games for a story you need to...try something else.
Part of the charm of KOF for me was the developing storyline through the years. I was disappointed in the lack of a storyline in KOF '98, which is why it's my least favourite amongst the 96-2000 era. I'm the kind of gamer who likes a bit of substance beyond the typical button-mashing mayhem...even if it's a half-hearted attempt at a story, it's better than NO story at all. The KOF storyline may not have been the greatest thing, but at least it was relatively interesting...it really died at 2001 (the story got pathetic) and just decayed from there.

Now, as for things that aren't a matter of opinion; KOF being "essentially retired". That's just not true. KOFXI was released not too long ago, and its very much a real KOF. Also there are the MI games, although I'm not going to pretend that I don't hate them, they are a continuation of the series.
The yearly KOF numbering has ended, and that's the "true" KOF series. Anything else just isn't the same.

Hm...I think that's being quite optimistic. I don't know if KOF98-quality games are going to be made for PCE, at least not until some really killer dev tools are made, and even then it seems unlikely. I have't seen anything homebrew for PCE that was even as good as...like...Bonk, and that's not asking much.
Look out for new releases by MindRec and Frozen Utopia very very soon. Also, it'd help to not use the phrase "homebrew"...it makes it sound like the game should be stuffed in with a pot of coffee. :) The word "independant" sounds a lot better. :-({|=
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 02:41:54 PM by nodtveidt »

Odonadon

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2006, 04:08:11 PM »
Do you understand how software licensing works for consoles? 8 track tapes never required a license, and this analogy shows how much you miss the point.


Oh boy, I think you better give this a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-track_cartridge .  8 track cartridges, and many MANY other forms of media, are patented, and you sure as hell need a license/permission to manufacture an 8-track cart :)  Maybe think of it this way - my '78 Pontiac Firebird is in perfect condition, it requires a license in the form of registration.  However, the 78 line of Firebirds is long since dead, in fact Firebirds aren't being made any more period.  Can I still drive my car?  Yep.  Is it's particular model dead?  Yep.  I think you will need to better point out the distinctions before I can agree.  The video game world doesn't differ much from the rest of the world.  I think if you ask any person that isn't a video game freak like we are if the Neo Geo (if they've even heard of it) died a while back they will agree with me.

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I'm still playing PCE games. New titles are still being published and classics are still for sale via the Wii. I know but don't care that the original hardware is out of production. The system is very much still alive for me. In fact, some of its best games are yet to come.


You are talking about the games.  Playing a PCE game on the Wii does not mean the system is still alive :)  The gaming community for the system, and the games themselves are eternal.  The system died a while ago.

OD
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FM-77

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2006, 11:54:12 PM »
Quote from: Black_Tiger link
In fact, some of its best games are yet to come.  :)

Hm...I think that's being quite optimistic. I don't know if KOF98-quality games are going to be made for PCE, at least not until some really killer dev tools are made, and even then it seems unlikely. I have't seen anything homebrew for PCE that was even as good as...like...Bonk, and that's not asking much.

Ever heard of "Neutopia III"? Yeah, it'll rock your socks!  :wink:

SignOfZeta

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2006, 04:57:33 AM »
Quote from: Odonadon

Oh boy, I think you better give this a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-track_cartridge .  8 track cartridges, and many MANY other forms of media, are patented, and you sure as hell need a license/permission to manufacture an 8-track cart :) 


Um...not the same thing. Lets use a more modern example, the Compact Disc. If I want to record an album and sell it on CD this is no problem. I just put it on a CD-R and sell it that way, or I can send the CD-R to a reproduction facility and they can stamp out some fancy pro stuff. If this is done with some places they can even slap a SKU on it and sell it on Amazon, or Lulu, or where ever. Is there a license process in this scheme? Well, yeah, but its not like making a console game. The patent process in situations like this is taken care of by the makers of blank media, the burners, the presses, etc. As a recording artist I wouldn't have to (knowingly) pay a license fee, or get anything authorized from anyone.

Contrast this to the console world. If I want to make and sell a GBA game in a store, on a cart, its either official, or its unlicensed. Those are the choices. Selling an unlicensed GBA game in the US would be pretty much legal thanks to customer protection lawsuits against Nintendo that date back decades. I don't think the DMCA applies to GBA games, but I'm not sure. However you might get into trouble in Europe, or Japan selling unlicensed software. Now, if If I wanted the game to bear the Nintendo Seal of Quality (or whatever it is) then I'd need to send the complete software to Nintendo in order to pass their judgement. If it was a pornographic game, or something that pisses of too many religious groups, or has other copyrighted materials, or it talks smack about Nintendo, or is annoying to someone there in some other way, it would never be honored a license. It would also need an ESRB rating for the US, a CERO rating for Japan, whatever the UK, and EU use, etc. Nintendo would also, obviously, want money and there is a good chance they would be the one manufacturing the carts, or arranging it anyway. Not only that, but as a GBA publisher I would probably have already payed for a GBA dev kit (although that's not really necessary nowadays). In the end this license would get me the right to use the official GBA packaging (with the logos, etc), and major stores would be much more likely to stock the title.

If you want to make, say, a Windows game then the only license you'd be paying would probably be the ones built into a CD scheme, or maybe various APIs, graphic engines etc you might elect to use. Its much more free. In fact if you avoided Direct X, etc, and made it download-only you’d be paying no fees to anyone. With dead systems the license system is either open (like with the Jaguar) or just ignored because nobody gives a shit anymore (like NEC).

This is the difference between Last Hope, and SS5Special. The last official game for PCE was Dead of the Brain 1&2. Anything since then has skipped all that crap I just mentioned. Of course NEC could always crank out some copies of Sapphire and then that reprint would be the last official game. This keeps happening with the PS1. Most recently with King’s Field.

So while there are issues with stuff like 8-track, CD, etc they are actually pretty minimal, and usually so transparent that the fees are payed without the artist even knowing it. With a console though...someone is going to want a check. With a game like Metal Gear Solid, I wouldn't be surprised if the license fees added up to tens of millions dollars over the years.

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Maybe think of it this way - my '78 Pontiac Firebird is in perfect condition, it requires a license in the form of registration.  However, the 78 line of Firebirds is long since dead, in fact Firebirds aren't being made any more period.  Can I still drive my car?  Yep.  Is it's particular model dead?  Yep.  I think you will need to better point out the distinctions before I can agree.  The video game world doesn't differ much from the rest of the world. 


OK, that's just totally off base. The license and registration for your car are granted by the state. You don't pay any fee to GM to own or operate the car. It might be different if you were talking about making parts for the car, but actually GM doesn't care about that either. For example, you can perform modifications (to boost the 78’s amazingly low stock horsepower) and then sell it to someone else at a profit. This is something you can’t do with licensed software (excepting open source, or Creative Commons).Hot Wheels pays a fee to manufacture metal miniatures of it though. Likewise if you bought a shirt that said, "Firebirds Rule!!!" and it used the Firebird logo, Walmart or whoever would have to pay a fee for that. The state on the other hand is really just charging you a use tax. They also want a use tax for dogs, but the original creator (God, in this case) doesn't mail you the license, get any of the money, or have any say in the process. Now there are patent fees all over a Firebird (from things on it they didn't invent or build, like the carborator, probably), but GM payed all those and passed them onto the original purchaser of the car.


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I think if you ask any person that isn't a video game freak like we are if the Neo Geo (if they've even heard of it) died a while back they will agree with me.


Yeah but, what does that prove? They probably think vinyl records are dead too, but its actually a (amazingly) still $100 million a year industry. The opinion of the average guy isn't worth much. The average guy thinks that the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis, that microwaves cook things from the inside out, that downloadable ring tones are worth $2.50...do you know how many people don't realize that the earth travels around the sun, and not the other way around? I'm not talking about crazy people, or the mentally retarded, "I'm talking about f*ckers with jobs". Seriously, f*ck the average guy. He's an idiot, he knows it, and he likes it that way. He's not part of this conversation.

esteban

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2006, 05:44:04 AM »
This is turning out to be a far more entertaining topic than I thought it would be. Lots of peace, love and harmony. :)
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nodtveidt

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2006, 02:57:48 PM »
Nintendo would also, obviously, want money and there is a good chance they would be the one manufacturing the carts, or arranging it anyway.
Just thought I'd comment on this particular sentence...Nintendo does control the manufacture of ALL licensed media without exception. So you're right on this point. You have to pay for the manufacture of the media though, and you have to have your own lines of distribution, as they don't handle this for you.

Odonadon

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2006, 04:38:36 PM »
K, well I'm not going to reply to that entire post, but I will do a quick summary.  I'd like to know who dictated the official definition of when a system is dead?  Who decided it was when the last licensed game is produced?  You?  My point exactly.  :)  Regardless of the way licensing works for the system, there are similarities all around in that you can't do whatever you want to do, whenever you want to.  You need permission to drive the '78 Firebird, regardless of who grants that permission.  So you are saying that  a game system is defined when the last licensed game is developed.  It's a tad out of left field and kind of a "it's this way because I say it is" answer.  Granted, so is my side of this argument :)  I do not see how deeming a system dead when production stops is any less of a valid reason than yours :)  Mine just makes WAY more sense to me.  The '78 Firebird had a limited production run, just like any video game system.  It "lived" and "died", just like any video game system.  Permission to use/drive/own it or legally make after market parts for it is irrelevant. 

The compact disc is also not the same thing, as the average consumer can go buy one and legally put whatever they want on it, and in some cases legally distribute it.  You aren't manufacturing the CD-R yourself.  If you were to make an 8-track cart today, you would likely have to produce the cart yourself (unless someone is still involved in this lucrative business :) )  You can still do it, and legally too, but that doesn't change the fact that 8-tracks died a long time ago :)  Don't know about anyone else, but I'd still consider the 8-track dead even if Julio Iglasias decided to put his next album out on it.

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Yeah but, what does that prove? They probably think vinyl records are dead too, but its actually a (amazingly) still $100 million a year industry. The opinion of the average guy isn't worth much. The average guy thinks that the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis, that microwaves cook things from the inside out, that downloadable ring tones are worth $2.50...do you know how many people don't realize that the earth travels around the sun, and not the other way around? I'm not talking about crazy people, or the mentally retarded, "I'm talking about f*ckers with jobs". Seriously, f*ck the average guy. He's an idiot, he knows it, and he likes it that way. He's not part of this conversation.

The world is all about averages - the Average Joe is king.  The average Joe is a moron, I'll give you that, but he decides what is society, ie the world.  His opinion matters whether it's right or wrong.  If 95% of average people believe Mission Impossible 2 is better than Mission Impossible 3, well that can't be ignored - it's a very important statement.  Dismissing "his" opinion is foolish.  Besides, they are still producing Vinyl record players, so the medium is definitely not dead.

At any rate, this is an argument that probably won't ever be resolved.  As far as I am concerned, the PC Engine, Neo Geo, NES, etc.  died a long time ago.  Does that mean we can't enjoy it anymore, or dedicate entire websites to it?  Of course not.  Can a company still make money off selling games for a system that is no longer in production - of course.  Does stopping production of that system indicate an imminent death of that system?  You bet - it gets taken off life support.

OD
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 04:50:36 PM by Odonadon »
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Bonknuts

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2006, 05:07:43 PM »
So If I were to acquire a license from Hudson(US or JP) to produce a PCE CD, then the system would be considered officially alive or is there a grace period that negates this?

 All this arguing is pointless. You believe one of two things: last licensed software to come out is the official end date for a console, or the last unofficial or unlicensed title to come out. I believe in the later and personally don't care if someone disagrees.


sunteam_paul

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2006, 03:51:13 AM »
It would be interesting to have a list from all the contributors in this thread as to which machines they believe are 'alive and 'dead'. You'd probably find you all agree with each other. :-k
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GUTS

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2006, 05:01:35 AM »
So If I were to acquire a license from Hudson(US or JP) to produce a PCE CD, then the system would be considered officially alive or is there a grace period that negates this?



I don't think that would be possible anymore, but that would rule if you could.

Odonadon

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Re: PCE latecomers
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2006, 05:04:39 AM »
It would be interesting to have a list from all the contributors in this thread as to which machines they believe are 'alive and 'dead'. You'd probably find you all agree with each other. :-k

The argument is more about 'when' the systems died, not if they are dead :)  Our opinions likely won't change, so I don't think I will continue this argument, especially considering this is the WRONG TOPIC :)

OD
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