Where's Neutopia?

[vestcoat]

I'm arriving a little late in the conversation, but you guys realize it's just a matter of time before FCI rolls in and sues Nintendo, Hudson, Sega, whoever made Golvelius, and Frozen Utopia for ripping off Hydlide, right?  Hydlide is, without a doubt, the unrecognized forefather of "zelda-clones" everywhere.  Don't even get me started on the Indiana Jones soundtrack....

[FM-77]

Hey, what did I say? I love Ys IV The Dawn of Ys and Faxanadu (although I would NEVER consider any of the happenings in these games as canonical)! Some of my favorite games ever!

Oh, and Super Adventure Island 2 rules too. It is actually better than the Wonder Boy games. Hudson could design levels, Westone could not (unless empty, straight rooms qualify as levels).

[Black Tiger]

I'm arriving a little late in the conversation, but you guys realize it's just a matter of time before FCI rolls in and sues Nintendo, Hudson, Sega, whoever made Golvelius, and Frozen Utopia for ripping off Hydlide, right?  Hydlide is, without a doubt, the unrecognized forefather of "zelda-clones" everywhere.  Don't even get me started on the Indiana Jones soundtrack....

I thought that Hydlide was supposed to be what Ys ripped of or vicey versey. I don't remember ramming through enemies in any of those other games.

FCI needs the money though, for when the adults who got ripped as children when they paid money for Hydlide NES decide to sue them. 

[guyjin]

indeed. hydlide was crap on a crap cracker.

if it's the grandfather of adventure games, he clearly had alzheimers.

but the great-grandfather of adventure games is, well, Adventure. "get this freaking duck away from me!"

[vestcoat]

Yeah, I guess Hydlide was more of an Ys-type game.

Being serious now, that game sure does suck.
Back in 1989, before the first 3 Funcoland store opened in Minnesota, I picked up Hydlide at a secondhand toy store.  I almost beat it back in the day because I had nothing else to play.

Hey, someone should make a side-scrolling shooter in the vein of Slyphia/LoT called Ys-Type!
...heheheh

Black Tiger, what's up with your signature?!?  Gross dude.

[FM-77]

Ys is not a rip-off of Hydlide. The "bump" system is one of the first RPG battle systems that was introduced in Rogue (in 1980 - the game that invented the Roguelike genre). Ys, Hydlide and pretty much every early Falcom game (Dragon Slayer [which came out BEFORE Hydlide - and I'm not talking about The Legend of Heroes here], Xanadu, Sorcerian, Legend of Xanadu, etc etc) borrowed this battle system from Rogue. The games themselves aren't very similiar, but the battle system definitely is. Although Ys evolved it and made it faster (rather than standing next to your enemy and pushing at it, you just touch it briefly and then quickly turn back).

[sunteam_paul]

Hey, what did I say? I love Ys IV The Dawn of Ys and Faxanadu (although I would NEVER consider any of the happenings in these games as canonical)! Some of my favorite games ever!

Oh, and Super Adventure Island 2 rules too. It is actually better than the Wonder Boy games. Hudson could design levels, Westone could not (unless empty, straight rooms qualify as levels).

The Master System Wonderboy beats all other imitators hands down, including the arcade original.

[FM-77]

The Master System Wonderboy beats all other imitators hands down, including the arcade original.

Yeah I know. But I was referring to the adventure-based Wonder Boy games. The first game is definitely the best of the bunch.

[Black Tiger]

Ys is not a rip-off of Hydlide. The "bump" system is one of the first RPG battle systems that was introduced in Rogue (in 1980 - the game that invented the Roguelike genre). Ys, Hydlide and pretty much every early Falcom game (Dragon Slayer [which came out BEFORE Hydlide - and I'm not talking about The Legend of Heroes here], Xanadu, Sorcerian, Legend of Xanadu, etc etc) borrowed this battle system from Rogue. The games themselves aren't very similiar, but the battle system definitely is. Although Ys evolved it and made it faster (rather than standing next to your enemy and pushing at it, you just touch it briefly and then quickly turn back).

I know that Ys isn't the originator of ramming, I was just funning about how it wasn't the original Zelda game. 

Black Tiger, what's up with your signature?!?  Gross dude.

I guess you're not a Working Designs 'coinnasseur'. 

Hey, what did I say? I love Ys IV The Dawn of Ys and Faxanadu (although I would NEVER consider any of the happenings in these games as canonical)! Some of my favorite games ever!

Oh, and Super Adventure Island 2 rules too. It is actually better than the Wonder Boy games. Hudson could design levels, Westone could not (unless empty, straight rooms qualify as levels).

The Master System Wonderboy beats all other imitators hands down, including the arcade original.

I haven't really tried SAI2, but I didn't like the gameplay of the first one. Or at least, I didn't like the extreme changes from WB. Which is why I loved New AI when I first tried it.

The SMS Wonderboy is definitely my favorite of that style of game. I wouldn't rank/compare the WB to the MW's, since they're completely different types of games.

The one disappointing thing about the SMS/MkIII WB is the lack of FM sound support. I probably would've prefered the PSG music, but it's nice to have the choice of both in MkIII games.

[esteban]

The Ys series ends at The Dwan Of Ys for me. Everything else are just offshoots.

Even if Hudson had programmed all of their Wonderboy'ish games themselves instead of Escape/Westone/whoever, they were still licensed and used the original source materials.

They wouldn't have gotten away with Neutopia if it had the same world map and dungeons as Zelda. There's a big difference between rip offs and ports.

The SNES AI's were similar in style to the original, but were totally rebalanced. The later NES AI's wound up closer to Super Mario World.

There's nothing wrong with licensed games, even when they use another games' formula, as long as they're good. Hudson still used few licenses during the PCE's lifetime compared to the number of games staring original Hudson characters.

I understand what you're saying (and I don't disagree with you ); I guess I'm using "clone" in a different sense . Instead of thinking of "clone" in a legal manner, think of clone in a "creative" sense.

In the case of WB1 -> AI1 vs. Zelda -> Neutopia, I consider the latter as "clones", since the latter is clearly capitalizing on the successful, established formula of the former. In this sense, a company can clone a franchise they themselves started. I'm talking about the gameplay formula, level designs, etc.

Let me explain: If Nintendo jointly produced Super JJ & Jeff Bros. for TG-16, I'd still call it a SMB clone, even though Nintendo themselves were involved. Otherwise, they could have simply used Mario & Luigi and called it Turbo Mario Bros..

The modern equivalent to this, I suppose, would occur when several games use the same "engine".

So, I would argue that WB1, AI1 and JJ & Jeff all use the same game engine, but that sounds funny!

---------
I think we agree that licenses, in and of themselves aren't a problem as long as the core game is decent.

[esteban]

Hey, what did I say? I love Ys IV The Dawn of Ys and Faxanadu (although I would NEVER consider any of the happenings in these games as canonical)! Some of my favorite games ever!

Seldane, I was just teasing you because I remember a bunch of times when we were discussing what qualifies as "official" Falcom canon .

I was just being dramatic by invoking your name, AND
I must have forgotten to put a smiley face in my post.

[Black Tiger]

The Ys series ends at The Dwan Of Ys for me. Everything else are just offshoots.

Even if Hudson had programmed all of their Wonderboy'ish games themselves instead of Escape/Westone/whoever, they were still licensed and used the original source materials.

They wouldn't have gotten away with Neutopia if it had the same world map and dungeons as Zelda. There's a big difference between rip offs and ports.

The SNES AI's were similar in style to the original, but were totally rebalanced. The later NES AI's wound up closer to Super Mario World.

There's nothing wrong with licensed games, even when they use another games' formula, as long as they're good. Hudson still used few licenses during the PCE's lifetime compared to the number of games staring original Hudson characters.

I understand what you're saying (and I don't disagree with you ); I guess I'm using "clone" in a different sense . Instead of thinking of "clone" in a legal manner, think of clone in a "creative" sense.

In the case of WB1 -> AI1 vs. Zelda -> Neutopia, I consider the latter as "clones", since the latter is clearly capitalizing on the successful, established formula of the former. In this sense, a company can clone a franchise they themselves started. I'm talking about the gameplay formula, level designs, etc.

Let me explain: If Nintendo jointly produced Super JJ & Jeff Bros. for TG-16, I'd still call it a SMB clone, even though Nintendo themselves were involved. Otherwise, they could have simply used Mario & Luigi and called it Turbo Mario Bros..

The modern equivalent to this, I suppose, would occur when several games use the same "engine".

So, I would argue that WB1, AI1 and JJ & Jeff all use the same game engine, but that sounds funny!

---------
I think we agree that licenses, in and of themselves aren't a problem as long as the core game is decent.

Games using the same or similar engine or design is one thing. But what do you call ports that are the exact same game, with the same levels?

[esteban]

I call them ports . Is this a trick question? My brain is not working .

[Black Tiger]

I call them ports . Is this a trick question? My brain is not working .

That's what I was saying earlier. The Hudson Wonderboy games are ports(except 'New AI'). Neutopia is a clone.

[esteban]

I call them ports . Is this a trick question? My brain is not working .

That's what I was saying earlier. The Hudson Wonderboy games are ports(except 'New AI'). Neutopia is a clone.

Right . I was saying that AI1 (NES), New Adventure Island (TG-16) and JJ & Jeff were clones of WB1.

For the Hudson Wonderboy stuff, they often added a license (Bikkuri Man) to sell it (which goes back to my other point).

I think we agree with each other, but I may not have worded things as clearly as I should have .