ESRB and the TG16

[nodtveidt]

I know a guy who wanted to make a game where you play a pedophile. It was very interesting to see gamers, who have spent years telling everyone else that violent games don't bring people to violence, suddenly jump ship and start saying how a pedophile game would turn people into pedophiles. It got so heated that the forum that the discussion took place on was shut down and its owner walked away. So the whole "it's bad if it doesn't agree with me" concept doesn't only apply to politicians.

Also, it's rather hilarious that all these politicians who are so gung-ho with their anti-gaming crap never actually DO anything except stir up the media and cause widespread public ignorance. This is why I say that it's not their acts but their intentions that are the real problem. They will never succeed against the gaming industry but they sure know how to piss people off.

[termis]

So the whole "it's bad if it doesn't agree with me" concept doesn't only apply to politicians.

You hit the nail on the head right there

[kungfukid]

What are you guys talkingabout?!? People DO copy what they see in video games all the time! Only last week I travelled the world and got together a bunch of people who can make fireballs shoot from their hands and competed in a fighting tournament a la Street Fighter 2! And yesterday I copied various shooters when I climbed into my spaceship, went to another galaxy and raced about shooting aliens - it was fun - I enjoyed it - and I don't see anything wrong with it!!! 

I've never heard such an absolute lot of crap as the idiots who think people go out and copy violence in video games - unless you're unbelievably literally retarded, I think 99.99999% of the population know the difference between what is acceptable in a video game and what is acceptable in real life!

[Black Tiger]

I know a guy who wanted to make a game where you play a pedophile. It was very interesting to see gamers, who have spent years telling everyone else that violent games don't bring people to violence, suddenly jump ship and start saying how a pedophile game would turn people into pedophiles. It got so heated that the forum that the discussion took place on was shut down and its owner walked away. So the whole "it's bad if it doesn't agree with me" concept doesn't only apply to politicians.

Also, it's rather hilarious that all these politicians who are so gung-ho with their anti-gaming crap never actually DO anything except stir up the media and cause widespread public ignorance. This is why I say that it's not their acts but their intentions that are the real problem. They will never succeed against the gaming industry but they sure know how to piss people off.

There's no need to make a game like that, there are already plenty of pedophile and rape sim games out in Japan. All someone has to do is translate some. 

I've never heard such an absolute lot of crap as the idiots who think people go out and copy violence in video games - unless you're unbelievably literally retarded, I think 99.99999% of the population know the difference between what is acceptable in a video game and what is acceptable in real life!

I don't think there's anything wrong with very adult and/or extreme games, but I think that truly adult material shouldn't be available to kids. Just as I wouldn't want pornos and snuff videos available for my children to rent at Block Buster.

[Bake]

The Turbo never had ratings, but I'm pretty sure they had recommended ages.  It Came From the Desert has the highest age cohort; 13 and up.

I don't think ratings are a bad thing.  I don't play many of the newer games so I do not know how accurate they are.  However, some of you have suggested that playing violent video games will not cause individuals to become violent.  I would say that this isn't 100% true because games can be a form of influence.  Living in a "bad neighborhood" where violence may be a way of life could influence those living in the neighborhood to become violent.  Violent video games, although they are not real, could have a similar effect.  Yet, I would imagine that for the most part that a majority of people do not become violent because of violent video games simply because the violence is not real.  However, the boys who caused the destruction that is known as Columbine loved to play Doom.  Of course, there are other factors such as bullying and social class that could have pushed them over the edge.  All I am saying is that these games are a form of influence and kids could imitate what they see.  So having ratings that are useful to parents is beneficial to society. 

By the way, I am not a conservative and I certainly do not believe in censorship.  I am just saying that any form of media can influence they way people think and act.

 

[kungfukid]

Hmm, each to their own, people will always have different viewpoints on this issue. Personally, I just don't buy it. I think if people carry out violent acts they were always going to do it. I think they play the video game (HU )card to try and justify or identify where their actions have come from, but in my opinion it is just not true. There are unfortunately evil people in this world, and there isn't always an explanation for the ways they act - it's the media who actively SEEK a reason or something to link the behaviour to, even if it isn't there. Oh boy I know all about media manipulation, unfortunately had to study the damn stuff as part of my degree at uni. Just my opinion of course, others are entitled to theirs!

[Black Tiger]

However, the boys who caused the destruction that is known as Columbine loved to play Doom.

So did/do about 100 million other people who haven't commited murder. I still can't believe that people only look at the sterotypes after the fact when others do something like that.

It's never "Well, they lived in a house. There are signs that they may have once ingested food. We're pretty sure they breathed air".

But other common traits to the rest of society get singled out when they're subjects that can still trick people into getting riled up.

Which is how 'Bowling for Columbine' got it's title. Why isn't there a national boycot of bowling?

All I am saying is that these games are a form of influence and kids could imitate what they see.  So having ratings that are useful to parents is beneficial to society. 

Like I said before, ratings are fine. But as for kids imitiating what they see... kids entertainment is more tame now than it has ever been. Kids used to watch/read/hear cowboys & injuns shows and play army. All involving humans killing humans.

Then we got to the 80's, with MOTU, GI Joe & Transformers. Again, all out war. Followed by the violent 80's & 90's games. But you know what? There isn't a generation of serial murderers out there.

One of the kinds of modern influences that might taint kids, who shouldn't be exposed to it in the first place, is all the thung & pimp idolism. Not so much because of the 'mature' themes, but because there are many personalities that pretend to really live that lifestyle and some that are caught commiting violent acts. Other types of entertainers still commit as many violent acts and such, but when a thug clown does it, it's a real life extension of their character.

Again, we should still have this and almost any kind of entertainment, but extreme subject matter shouldn't be freely available to children. If parents want to give their children mature subject matter, that's their business. But nowadays kids who can't buy a Playboy can buy other mags and various forms of media far more sexually explicit(like Cosmo).

In the end, the real problem is parents not taking care of their kids. All you have to do is play a few rounds of a popluar online multiplayer game to see how bad it is. But even if every parent did everything right, we'd still have people doing bad things. It's human nature.

[Joe Redifer]

However, the boys who caused the destruction that is known as Columbine loved to play Doom.

They enjoyed taking a pee when their bladders were full as well.  Taking a piss creates murderers!  Ban peeing!

[Bake]

However, the boys who caused the destruction that is known as Columbine loved to play Doom.

So did/do about 100 million other people who haven't commited murder. I still can't believe that people only look at the sterotypes after the fact when others do something like that.

It's never "Well, they lived in a house. There are signs that they may have once ingested food. We're pretty sure they breathed air".

But other common traits to the rest of society get singled out when they're subjects that can still trick people into getting riled up.

Which is how 'Bowling for Columbine' got it's title. Why isn't there a national boycot of bowling?

All I am saying is that these games are a form of influence and kids could imitate what they see.  So having ratings that are useful to parents is beneficial to society. 

Like I said before, ratings are fine. But as for kids imitiating what they see... kids entertainment is more tame now than it has ever been. Kids used to watch/read/hear cowboys & injuns shows and play army. All involving humans killing humans.

Then we got to the 80's, with MOTU, GI Joe & Transformers. Again, all out war. Followed by the violent 80's & 90's games. But you know what? There isn't a generation of serial murderers out there.

One of the kinds of modern influences that might taint kids, who shouldn't be exposed to it in the first place, is all the thung & pimp idolism. Not so much because of the 'mature' themes, but because there are many personalities that pretend to really live that lifestyle and some that are caught commiting violent acts. Other types of entertainers still commit as many violent acts and such, but when a thug clown does it, it's a real life extension of their character.

Again, we should still have this and almost any kind of entertainment, but extreme subject matter shouldn't be freely available to children. If parents want to give their children mature subject matter, that's their business. But nowadays kids who can't buy a Playboy can buy other mags and various forms of media far more sexually explicit(like Cosmo).

In the end, the real problem is parents not taking care of their kids. All you have to do is play a few rounds of a popluar online multiplayer game to see how bad it is. But even if every parent did everything right, we'd still have people doing bad things. It's human nature.

Black Tiger,
My original post was not meant to convey that Doom caused Columbine.  I said other factors were probably the reasons why the boys did what they did.  But, Doom was an influence on them.  I realize that most people can play Doom and will not go on a killing spree.  That's because they cave into societal norms and killing contradicts their constructed views of morality.  I had a feeling that sentence would not go over well.  It may have sounded like I meant, "if you play Doom you will kill people" and that is not what I am saying.  Again, the meaning of my post was to say that media will socialize people.  Movies, music, video games will affect how people think and feel, and they may or may not act on those feelings depending on other influences in their lives such as parents, peers, neighborhood environment, and societal norms and values (or a disregard for those norms and values because of feelings of alienation or something to that nature).  There is no denying that.  I'm assuming the Columbine boys had numerous influences, Doom being one of them, that caused the violence to occur.  So Dooms was NOT the sole reason but possibly one of many.  Influences cause people to do what they do.  If you don't agree with me, that's fine. 

I agree that parents have to be more involved in monitoring what games their kids are playing.   However, to say that people will continue to do bad things even if they have parents who do "everything right" and because it's "human nature" may or may not be true.  To say that humans are naturally violent or "bad" is very difficult to prove.  In fact, it is probably impossible to prove. 

[nodtveidt]

It IS true that violent media can bring out the violence potential in a person already "wired" for that kind of behavior. But a person not predisposed to violent behavior is not going to be affected no matter how much you expose him or her to. We've known this for centuries...amazing how much society likes to forget when it's convenient for them to believe something else.

To put it into modern terms...you have to already have a violent nature within you to be affected by a violent video game. End of story. No ratings are ever going to change that basic truth.

[Bake]

Just out of curiosity nodtveidt, are you saying that there is a violent gene out there that causes people to be violent? 

[Black Tiger]

However, the boys who caused the destruction that is known as Columbine loved to play Doom.

So did/do about 100 million other people who haven't commited murder. I still can't believe that people only look at the sterotypes after the fact when others do something like that.

It's never "Well, they lived in a house. There are signs that they may have once ingested food. We're pretty sure they breathed air".

But other common traits to the rest of society get singled out when they're subjects that can still trick people into getting riled up.

Which is how 'Bowling for Columbine' got it's title. Why isn't there a national boycot of bowling?

All I am saying is that these games are a form of influence and kids could imitate what they see.  So having ratings that are useful to parents is beneficial to society. 

Like I said before, ratings are fine. But as for kids imitiating what they see... kids entertainment is more tame now than it has ever been. Kids used to watch/read/hear cowboys & injuns shows and play army. All involving humans killing humans.

Then we got to the 80's, with MOTU, GI Joe & Transformers. Again, all out war. Followed by the violent 80's & 90's games. But you know what? There isn't a generation of serial murderers out there.

One of the kinds of modern influences that might taint kids, who shouldn't be exposed to it in the first place, is all the thung & pimp idolism. Not so much because of the 'mature' themes, but because there are many personalities that pretend to really live that lifestyle and some that are caught commiting violent acts. Other types of entertainers still commit as many violent acts and such, but when a thug clown does it, it's a real life extension of their character.

Again, we should still have this and almost any kind of entertainment, but extreme subject matter shouldn't be freely available to children. If parents want to give their children mature subject matter, that's their business. But nowadays kids who can't buy a Playboy can buy other mags and various forms of media far more sexually explicit(like Cosmo).

In the end, the real problem is parents not taking care of their kids. All you have to do is play a few rounds of a popluar online multiplayer game to see how bad it is. But even if every parent did everything right, we'd still have people doing bad things. It's human nature.

Black Tiger,
My original post was not meant to convey that Doom caused Columbine.  I said other factors were probably the reasons why the boys did what they did.  But, Doom was an influence on them.  I realize that most people can play Doom and will not go on a killing spree.  That's because they cave into societal norms and killing contradicts their constructed views of morality.  I had a feeling that sentence would not go over well.  It may have sounded like I meant, "if you play Doom you will kill people" and that is not what I am saying.  Again, the meaning of my post was to say that media will socialize people.  Movies, music, video games will affect how people think and feel, and they may or may not act on those feelings depending on other influences in their lives such as parents, peers, neighborhood environment, and societal norms and values (or a disregard for those norms and values because of feelings of alienation or something to that nature).  There is no denying that.  I'm assuming the Columbine boys had numerous influences, Doom being one of them, that caused the violence to occur.  So Dooms was NOT the sole reason but possibly one of many.  Influences cause people to do what they do.  If you don't agree with me, that's fine. 

I agree that parents have to be more involved in monitoring what games their kids are playing.   However, to say that people will continue to do bad things even if they have parents who do "everything right" and because it's "human nature" may or may not be true.  To say that humans are naturally violent or "bad" is very difficult to prove.  In fact, it is probably impossible to prove. 

Ted Bundy had a thing for killing blonde hair girls. I don't think that hair dye or natural hair color is dangerous or incites people to act violent. Blonde hair didn't influence him to kill. Ted Bundy was just messed up in the head. Same with those kids. Doom or any of the music they listened to had nothing to do with their rampage.

Many argue that something like Doom can be an outlet to vent and therefore Doom might've been a driving force to keep those kids from hurting more people. But I don't think that a fantasy game like that made much difference either way.

The average goth kid is a pussy. I don't mean that in a bad way.

When one person in however many million is the exception to the rule, they're the exception, not their favorite book or TV show. They just caught that kidnapper, the 'Xbox Live kidnapper'. I don't think that Xbox had anything to do with his abducting a boy.

The Columbine losers were teenagers. Teens play games like Doom. Teens listen to music like NIN. Teens don't generally do what those guys did. Doom was a factor of their teenageness.

Horrible things have been commited by humans as long as we've been around. Games and TV are brand new.

[Bake]

Ted Bundy had a thing for killing blonde hair girls. I don't think that hair dye or natural hair color is dangerous or incites people to act violent. Blonde hair didn't influence him to kill. Ted Bundy was just messed up in the head. Same with those kids. Doom or any of the music they listened to had nothing to do with their rampage. 

According to your Bundy comment, you keep thinking that I am saying that Doom was the only reason Columbine happened and in both messages I did not say that.  I thought I made that very clear.   Whatever, it's obvious that you don't agree with me.  That's okay. 

Combinations of influences cause people to do the things they do, not just one. 

[nodtveidt]

Just out of curiosity nodtveidt, are you saying that there is a violent gene out there that causes people to be violent? 

No, I didn't mention genetics whatsoever. But it's not exactly a mystery that every person is different and made up of millions upon millions of variables. The "violent gene" ideaology was invented by some crackpot who believed, like so many other short-sighted dumbdumbs, that a human can be broken down into general aspects. But it's horseshit. That aside, there are people who have a penchant for violence within them for one reason or another (usually many factors, no human can be generalized down to a single variable no matter how hard you try to do it). The factors could include a bad living environment (abusive parents is a very good example), poverty (this is a particularly nasty modifier), or being born a Scorpio (hehe). Violent media can strengthen or "awaken" this person's violent streak. That's not to say that it will, just that it can.

[guyjin]

HOO boy. What have I done? We need a can-of-worms smily.  :oops: