PC Engine AV mod

[esteban]

Chris, allow me to play the Devil's Advocate .

I'm surprised how many people here are trying to shoot holes in the superiority of RGB.  Let's not get carried away and imagine what the developers' "intentions" were when they drew their graphics.  I have a PC-Engine promotional video here that shows developers at Hudson working on games such as Tengai Makyou, and the graphics artists used computers with a graphic editor on-screen, and a second video monitor beside it for previewing.  Let's also not forget about the PC-Engine that was built into a computer monitor and sold in Japan; I'm sure that is connected directly via RGB.  Thus, PCE hardware WAS sold with RGB output as standard in some cases.

Chris, I think you're conflating several related issues .

1. The question is not: "Is RGB technically superior?", but rather "Is RGB aesthetically superior?"

2. What market(s) were PCE / TG-16 games designed for? What implications does this have when designing software?

As far as #2 is concerned, I humbly disagree with you . Yes, developers used computers + software, their tools of the trade, to create games. But they knew full-well that they were designing for standard televisions, and their standard practices would reflect that. A handful of niche products that could display PCE RGB would never negate the fact that 99.99% of the audience would be using composite / RF to display PCE video output. No, I don't think that developers back then would say, "OK, let's design this game with PCE RGB-user in mind."  Instead, I think they'd say, "Keep in mind that folks will be playing these games on televisions, not our workstations, so our product has to downgrade nicely for RF / composite."

Therefore, I find it hard to believe that most console artists / developers were not incredibly concerned with how their software was displayed on standard televsions. Crucial decisions and standard practices were made along these lines, IMO.

Now, as far as #1 is concerned, all preferences are completely subjective. That said, I think there is an unfortunate tendency to correlate technical "purity" as if it were a virtue unto itself. Brighter colors, more finite color separation, higher contrast, etc. are discussed as the end-all and be-all. Hogwash!

Personally, I feel that the true beauty of most older consoles (PCE included) is revealed with RF / composite / (s-video ?). Why? The games were designed that way, with a specific medium in mind, a specific canvas. That is where the character and beauty lies: in the technical limitations, the imperfections, the non-godlike aspects. Admittedly, I rarely use emulators, but when I do, I prefer to use filters that simulate horizontal scan lines.

I agree with GUTS: perfect, pure, sharp blocky pixels are aesthetically sterile as far as SMS, NES, PCE, Genny, etc. are concerned. Apparently, lots of folks prefer to strip the life and character from games? I don't (ouch, those are fighting words ).


Bottom Line: I'm not saying it isn't fun or interesting to experience component, RGB, etc. etc. It is fun. In a perfect world, I would love to have all options available at all times.

That said, I'm arguing that there is an aesthetic beauty to RF / composite / s-video + standard tv that is overlooked in technical discussions. Furthermore, the original context of these games (the designers intentions and their audience) are often ignored as well.

Let me put it this way: if I were to display in-game PCE art in my home, I would want a photograph of a messy, imperfect television screen since it captures the essence of playing the PCE console.

There is purity in impurity .

/rant

[Spector]

I second everything stevek666 says. I used to play games on a certain computer via an emulator, but once I saw the original machine up and running in rf, I couldn't go back. Rf just had so much more life in it. I think the same applies here with the PC Engine - so it's gonna be composite for me.

[FM-77]

You people are shocking me.

[Keranu]

Great post, Steve, I was getting to the same thing. I suppose further proof to support what Steve was saying is dithering. If PCE games were designed with RGB in mind, why would the graphic designers decide to use dithering in spots for games to create more colors? With RGB monitors in mind, this idea doesn't work out so well as it does for a standard RF / composite TV so I can only assume that a lot of older 16-bit and earlier games were designed with RF / composite in mind. So in a way, RF / composite was the artist's original choice of "paint", or whatever word you want to use .

[Black Tiger]

There isn't a single modern PAL TV that cannot handle NTSC flawlessly. Maybe the really, really cheap and tiny ones, but nobody uses those other than in the kitchen anyway. Pretty much every PS2/GC, etc game is playable in PAL and PAL60 mode, the latter which is a really good standard (60Hz, but PAL color encoding).

Hell, most modern TV's in North America do PAL now. The digital ones of course, not the old moldies. 

[GUTS]

I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of.  I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now.  Is S-Video possible on the Genesis?  I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.

[Black Tiger]

Chris, allow me to play the Devil's Advocate .

I'm surprised how many people here are trying to shoot holes in the superiority of RGB.  Let's not get carried away and imagine what the developers' "intentions" were when they drew their graphics.  I have a PC-Engine promotional video here that shows developers at Hudson working on games such as Tengai Makyou, and the graphics artists used computers with a graphic editor on-screen, and a second video monitor beside it for previewing.  Let's also not forget about the PC-Engine that was built into a computer monitor and sold in Japan; I'm sure that is connected directly via RGB.  Thus, PCE hardware WAS sold with RGB output as standard in some cases.

Chris, I think you're conflating several related issues .

1. The question is not: "Is RGB technically superior?", but rather "Is RGB aesthetically superior?"

2. What market(s) were PCE / TG-16 games designed for? What implications does this have when designing software?

As far as #2 is concerned, I humbly disagree with you . Yes, developers used computers + software, their tools of the trade, to create games. But they knew full-well that they were designing for standard televisions, and their standard practices would reflect that. A handful of niche products that could display PCE RGB would never negate the fact that 99.99% of the audience would be using composite / RF to display PCE video output. No, I don't think that developers back then would say, "OK, let's design this game with PCE RGB-user in mind."  Instead, I think they'd say, "Keep in mind that folks will be playing these games on televisions, not our workstations, so our product has to downgrade nicely for RF / composite."

Therefore, I find it hard to believe that most console artists / developers were not incredibly concerned with how their software was displayed on standard televsions. Crucial decisions and standard practices were made along these lines, IMO.

Now, as far as #1 is concerned, all preferences are completely subjective. That said, I think there is an unfortunate tendency to correlate technical "purity" as if it were a virtue unto itself. Brighter colors, more finite color separation, higher contrast, etc. are discussed as the end-all and be-all. Hogwash!

Personally, I feel that the true beauty of most older consoles (PCE included) is revealed with RF / composite / (s-video ?). Why? The games were designed that way, with a specific medium in mind, a specific canvas. That is where the character and beauty lies: in the technical limitations, the imperfections, the non-godlike aspects. Admittedly, I rarely use emulators, but when I do, I prefer to use filters that simulate horizontal scan lines.

I agree with GUTS: perfect, pure, sharp blocky pixels are aesthetically sterile as far as SMS, NES, PCE, Genny, etc. are concerned. Apparently, lots of folks prefer to strip the life and character from games? I don't (ouch, those are fighting words ).


Bottom Line: I'm not saying it isn't fun or interesting to experience component, RGB, etc. etc. It is fun. In a perfect world, I would love to have all options available at all times.

That said, I'm arguing that there is an aesthetic beauty to RF / composite / s-video + standard tv that is overlooked in technical discussions. Furthermore, the original context of these games (the designers intentions and their audience) are often ignored as well.

Let me put it this way: if I were to display in-game PCE art in my home, I would want a photograph of a messy, imperfect television screen since it captures the essence of playing the PCE console.

There is purity in impurity .

/rant

Yeah, but S-Video makes classic console games look blocky just like RGB.

Although I like 'sharp' images with classic consoles and don't think that emulated screen shots look like crap, I'd be happy with composite like the Duo's if the color didn't get ruined.

Every developer is different and each game is different. Some games were made to use a console's target region's supposed output limitations and others weren't. I don't think that too many decent non-Genesis 16-bit games were really trying to play off the effects/limits of RF/composite in any kind of major way that anything is lost in the jump to RGB.

But just as heavy dithering was used to blend graphics through RF/composite in some Genesis games, it actually has the opposite effect through the TG-16/PCE composite, where a gradient with dithering produces stripes of clashing color.

And as for developer's possible intentions, does anybody else remember all those 16-bit games with useless passwords where you couldn't tell a '1', from a 'l', from an 'I' on a regular TV using RF/composite?

Do the anti-RGB guys find all arcade games to be aesthetically sterile and stripped of life and character?

Personally, I appreciate game graphics in all outputs, but prefer to play with the best quality picture available.

Great post, Steve, I was getting to the same thing. I suppose further proof to support what Steve was saying is dithering. If PCE games were designed with RGB in mind, why would the graphic designers decide to use dithering in spots for games to create more colors? With RGB monitors in mind, this idea doesn't work out so well as it does for a standard RF / composite TV so I can only assume that a lot of older 16-bit and earlier games were designed with RF / composite in mind. So in a way, RF / composite was the artist's original choice of "paint", or whatever word you want to use .

Dithering is still a nice way to blend graphics, particularly straight gradients. It's like crosshatching with pen and ink.

The way it's been explained to me, the PC Engine often uses dithering in bg gradients since it doesn't have the high color bg limit that something like the SNES does.

Even colorful arcade games meant for RGB still use dithering.

Plus, we all know how lazy developers can't be bothered to program in truly colorful graphics where as someone like Mr Covell who doesn't have a big budget from a publisher or official dev kits puts many of the big guys to shame.

Even a heavily dithered game like Lords of Thunder Sega-CD still looks beautiful with a clear picture and the average person would have a hard time noticing the real difference between it and the dithered-lite Turbo/PCE version.



Do you really think that the developer never wanted you to witness the horror of this bg's gradient in anything other than RF/composite-





And what about the aesthetically sterile and stripped of life final frames of this monstrosity-

[FM-77]

There isn't a single modern PAL TV that cannot handle NTSC flawlessly. Maybe the really, really cheap and tiny ones, but nobody uses those other than in the kitchen anyway. Pretty much every PS2/GC, etc game is playable in PAL and PAL60 mode, the latter which is a really good standard (60Hz, but PAL color encoding).

Hell, most modern TV's in North America do PAL now. The digital ones of course, not the old moldies. 

Oh I should've noted that. I was talking about regular, non-HD CRT TVs.

[Keranu]

I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of.  I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now.  Is S-Video possible on the Genesis?  I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.

Yes S-video on Genesis is possible and common, from what I know. My friend does a lot of s-vid mods for Genesis.

[Black Tiger]

I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of.  I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now.  Is S-Video possible on the Genesis?  I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.

Yes S-video on Genesis is possible and common, from what I know. My friend does a lot of s-vid mods for Genesis.

I have a Pal Megadrive modded for S-Video and just like the Duo, it looks just about as 'blocky' as RGB.

But I love the vibrant colors. 

[Michael Helgeson]

I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of.  I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now.  Is S-Video possible on the Genesis?  I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.

Akumajo Dracula X is about the only game I had probs with in s-video on the Saturn. It looked sharper,but in s-video mode there was some weird problems. You'll notice it if you start the game and right before you go to Dracula for the rein-actment battle,in the sky,you will see problems. I can't really explain it but it was present on 3 tested systems.

Everything else I ran in s-video on Saturn was just awesome.

[esteban]

This is all in good fun

Every developer is different and each game is different. Some games were made to use a console's target region's supposed output limitations and others weren't. I don't think that too many decent non-Genesis 16-bit games were really trying to play off the effects/limits of RF/composite in any kind of major way that anything is lost in the jump to RGB.

Using my "test" of hanging artwork in your home: would you prefer character sprites and backgrounds as they are displayed in an unfiltered emulator + computer monitor? Despite the fact that they are displayed in all of their digital, unadulterated glory, they do not look nearly as attractive or as aesthetically pleasing as composite / s-video + television, IMO. This is subjective: what style of art to you prefer? See below: I expand on how technology limitations and art are inter-related.

But just as heavy dithering was used to blend graphics through RF/composite in some Genesis games, it actually has the opposite effect through the TG-16/PCE composite, where a gradient with dithering produces stripes of clashing color.

This is unfortunate, but like I said, this is still what I prefer. Film (as in Hollywood and beyond) have technical issues as well when it comes to scrolling cameras past horizontal and vertical patterns (moire effect) ... it's not enough for me to get annoyed, though.

And as for developer's possible intentions, does anybody else remember all those 16-bit games with useless passwords where you couldn't tell a '1', from a 'l', from an 'I' on a regular TV using RF/composite?

Actually, this is still a problem in RGB. This is still a problem on computer monitors. I blame any developer who is foolish enough to use 1, I and l in a password system. This is not the fault of RF / composite, but the passworld system.

The modern equivalent would be a web developer who doesn't do any usability testing ... only to discover that folks can't distinguish the differences between "X" "x" or "G" "5" "S" s" in confirmation codes they are expected to enter (see #12 on this page.)

A visual confirmation graphic system is a good thing, but many are too difficult to read. For example, this is what I got when trying to create a Yahoo! account. Is that an uppercase “X”? Is the last character an “s,” “5,” or “S”? Maybe this only affects old people like me, but it seems that all one merely has to prove is that you’re not a robot so a little bit of fuzziness should be good enough. For example, if the code is “ghj1lK” and someone who enters “ghj11K” is close enough.

Do the anti-RGB guys find all arcade games to be aesthetically sterile and stripped of life and character?

Re-read my post: I was specifically talking about older consoles designed for Rf / composite / s-video. I hold arcade games to a different standard, since they have a different medium... just as I hold computer games to a different standard.

In other words: I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics. We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with. When Sega or Data East(!) were designing games for the arcade, they had a very specific array of hardware and displays in mind.

My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.

Personally, I appreciate game graphics in all outputs, but prefer to play with the best quality picture available.

I know what you are saying . My post, though, was an attempt to make you re-consider how you define "best" (technically vs. aesthetically). If I understand you correctly, you find "technical superiority" to correlate with "aesthetic superiority".

I was arguing otherwise, though I clearly stated that our opinions on aesthetics are completely subjective.

We all define beauty in different ways.

I'm sure many of you will cringe when you hear about the old television I often use to play games: the screen is convex, like a bubble, which distorts the image. Plus, it doesn't have as many scan lines as high-end CRT tv's. Despite the low-resolution fish-tank technology, the games displayed on this ancient TV are gorgeous...

Don't hate me

[Joe Redifer]

**slaps forehead**

It is obvious that most of the people here who hate RGB with all of their being have never played in RGB.  Like I said before, if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it. 

To the person who said that when they use emulators that they like to use filters with scan lines to simulate how it looks on a TV...  RGB STILL HAS SCANLINES!  It looks nothing like an emulator.  Jeebus, it's like arguing politics with someone who's never even looked into the subject.  RGB and s-video sure aren't "blocky", no more so than composite.  In fact you'll have less resolution with composite.  Why do they use dithering?  It's not because of composite, it's because the Turbo/PC Engine's color palette is too wimpy to have solid colors in each area... THEY HAVE NO CHOICE!  I can tell when they use dithering on composite as well.  It's not like the dithering blurs into its own brand new color.  Anyone who thinks it does either needs to get their eyes checked or owns a cheap-ass TV from Wal*Mart.  Instead of blending into a new color, dithering Turbo/PCE games instead flicker/shimmer back and forth like mad!  I personally think that looks gawdawful.  It is far more distracting than the non-shimmering well-defined dither that RGB and equivalent offers.  RGB and the like also gets rid of all of that nasty "rainbow effect" on the screen as well.  Oh wait... the designers intended for the rainbow effects in high detail areas to be there?  Yeah, I'm sure they did.    You just keep on believing that.  And for the person who thinks RGB looks too "sterile", nothing could be further from the truth unless you like the graininess from RF in your games.  I suggest that you NEVER convert to HDTV because you will not be able to handle the sterile-ness  of the picture.  I bet you hate DVD, too... unless you hook it up with RF which you must if that is your argument.  In short, the picture is every bit as "alive" with RGB and the like.  I know what you are trying to say, but as far as I'm concerned, it is not an issue in video-game land.

Again, if y'all had RGB, you'd like it.

[FM-77]

They're composite fanboys. Arguing against RGB because they don't own it. Just like people argue against PS3 (for example) because they don't own it. It is human nature, everyone works this way. Saying bad things about stuff they don't own, because deep down, they really want it but can't have it (for various reasons).

[Joe Redifer]

I must reply to the film having a moire effect.  Film does not have moire.  Video does.