Author Topic: PC Engine AV mod  (Read 13060 times)

Keranu

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #195 on: February 05, 2007, 06:02:36 PM »
I'm no expert by any means, but I'd say get an s-video mod for your Genesis but leave the Turbo as is.
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esteban

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #196 on: February 05, 2007, 06:06:21 PM »
First I'd like to thank Joe for being a good sport (plus, I enjoyed your recent post :)) and, second, now it's time for me to give Black_Tiger some grief! :)

Personally, I can't stand playing Intellivision with an awful dirty dark screen that warps and has lines running through it, because it affects the actual gameplay(even more so than those illegible passwords in composite).
Well, thankfully, I never have it that bad (where it affects gameplay). You might try experimenting to see if that is caused by interference from other cables / devices. I've found that all my RF connections are susceptible to interference. Often, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it: so I just have to move stuff around (i.e. video cables, power cords, AC adapters).

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Hopefully I can get a composite mod someday... I also don't use the Intellivision 2, because the pads don't play properly, even though they're official.
I've never owned Intellivision 2, but it sounds like the pads rival the Atari 7800!

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I also use Genesis 6 button pads to play SMS games when I can't find a fully functional SMS pad with the knob attachment. I don't think that playing games designed for a Sega Mark III pad with a SMS pad preserves anything that I'm losing by playing with a Genesis pad.
Ouch! The 6-button Genny pad is worse than the 3-button, IMHO :). This is a subjective area, of course, but I've always preferred NES-style controllers... so I like the SMS pads better than the Genny's pads.

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The original PC Engine was designed to be a cheap tiny next gen machine to compete with the Famicom. It was initially designed with flaws that betrayed it's potential, since it was never supposed to run games as beautiful as it wound up supporting years after it's originally estimated life span had passed.
I have no reason to disagree. But I'm not concerned with anything outside of the actual hardware we were sold, since modded hardware won't provide what I want.


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Hardware developers make mistakes all the time, just like software developers. I don't think that installing a fan in a Duo to keep it from dying after a few years detracts from the games' authenticity. I'd rather play a working system than a dead system. Just as I'd rather play a TE/GT with loud sound than quiet sound.
1. Well, I wouldn't fault anyone for performing any mod (including RGB), since we all have very different needs. I'm sure a fan is a practical idea... but I have no desire to install a fan. Thankfully, my DUOs still work fine.

2. As far as TE/GT is concerned: I never said I am opposed to repairing hardware! As long as hardware is repaired to regain the original specifications, I'm happy.

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The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.
Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...

My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.


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The hardware a company officially puts out doesn't determine a console's zone of realness for me, particularly since most full-life consoles have contradicting standards between their own hardware releases. Like the GBA, the original is nearly unplayable, even with a worm light. But the games have never looked better than on the new brighter GBA SP and DS Lite.
Ahhh, but those aren't contradictions! Those are all valid configurations of a product. We're not talking about folks who modded their GP32's / GBA's with illuminated screens now, we're talking about mass produced consumer goods.

Another significant change of aesthetics ocurred earlier when GB -> GBC ...  the introduction of color (however limited) and a slight tweaking of the hardware (there were some GBC-only games that were not backward-compatible) is certainly relevant to our discussion.

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All I know is that for years, I wanted to play TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games that looked as vibant as the screenshots on game cases and in magazines, and it wasn't until I got an S-Video mod that I found that those games really did look like that all along.

I think that composite genuinely represents the graphics of most consoles well enough, but the Turbo/PCE is one of them that got a raw deal(proportionately between actual graphics and what comes out of the box).

Personally, I am deluded by nostalgia. And am loving every minute of it.  :)

I don't know why some people take that as an insult.
:)

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 07:11:12 PM by stevek666 »
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FM-77

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #197 on: February 06, 2007, 01:55:46 AM »
I'm no expert by any means, but I'd say get an s-video mod for your Genesis but leave the Turbo as is.

Why mod a system that already outputs s-video? :p

Anyway - you should definitely do the rgb mod and then convert it to component just like Joe did. You'll definitely not regret it.

GUTS

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #198 on: February 06, 2007, 06:08:18 AM »
Yeah I want S-video at the very least on my Genesis and Duo, the colors are just so much more vibrant.  I definitely want RGB on my Saturn and Dreamcast though.

Black Tiger

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #199 on: February 06, 2007, 06:43:51 AM »
Yeah I want S-video at the very least on my Genesis and Duo, the colors are just so much more vibrant.  I definitely want RGB on my Saturn and Dreamcast though.

I'm planning on getting one of those RGB trancoder things that outputs S-Video, since I still want to play classic consoles on regular TVs and my capture card doesn't do component. If I can't get a 2-in-1, I'll also pick up one that does component later on to play stuff on my projector.

GUTS, you can get Dreamcast VGA adaptors pretty cheap and nearly all DC games support progressive scan.


As far as TE/GT is concerned: I never said I am opposed to repairing hardware! As long as hardware is repaired to regain the original specifications, I'm happy.


As far as I'm concerned, the Turbo's composite quality is a defect, like the TE/GT sound issue its not a system destroying one, but like the TE/GT sound problem, fixing it only improves the game experience.

But like I've said before, if someone wants to play Duo games on a black & white TV while standing on their head, thats their business.  :)
 

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The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.

Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...

My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.

The point is that there is no standard original specification for game consoles.

I think that allowing Duo games to appear as colorful as they really are is just one more "medium".

As for the range of TV quality, every TV is different and each one radically changes the Duo's original specifications.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 06:58:53 AM by Black_Tiger »
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Spector

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #200 on: February 06, 2007, 07:50:46 AM »
Yeah I want S-video at the very least on my Genesis and Duo, the colors are just so much more vibrant.  I definitely want RGB on my Saturn and Dreamcast though.

I'm planning on getting one of those RGB trancoder things that outputs S-Video, since I still want to play classic consoles on regular TVs and my capture card doesn't do component. If I can't get a 2-in-1, I'll also pick up one that does component later on to play stuff on my projector.

GUTS, you can get Dreamcast VGA adaptors pretty cheap and nearly all DC games support progressive scan.


As far as TE/GT is concerned: I never said I am opposed to repairing hardware! As long as hardware is repaired to regain the original specifications, I'm happy.


As far as I'm concerned, the Turbo's composite quality is a defect, like the TE/GT sound issue its not a system destroying one, but like the TE/GT sound problem, fixing it only improves the game experience.

But like I've said before, if someone wants to play Duo games on a black & white TV while standing on their head, thats their business.  :)
 

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The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.

Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...

My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.

The point is that there is no standard original specification for game consoles.

I think that allowing Duo games to appear as colorful as they really are is just one more "medium".

As for the range of TV quality, every TV is different and each one radically changes the Duo's original specifications.

You know a lot more about the PC Engine than I do, that's for sure, and maybe for the PC Engine, RGB really is better. To repeat myself though, there are two problems I have with that:
Firstly, the Sinclair ZX Spectrum computer looks far better in RF than RGB, and I'm guessing that's not the only computer/console this applies to.
Secondly, I am (as you may guess by my username) a big fan of Phil Spector's music. All of his great records are in mono. They have been re-released in stereo, which increases the detail and separation so you can hear more of the actual production elements... and they all sound ten times worse. I'm thinking that the rules of sound could also be the rules for vision. That's certainly true for the Spectrum, and I've got a suspicion that it's true for the PC Engine and other 80s consoles as well. But of course, I'm not sure.

Damn, I wish I could see RGB and Composite side by side!    :|
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Black Tiger

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #201 on: February 06, 2007, 08:07:44 AM »
You know a lot more about the PC Engine than I do, that's for sure, and maybe for the PC Engine, RGB really is better. To repeat myself though, there are two problems I have with that:
Firstly, the Sinclair ZX Spectrum computer looks far better in RF than RGB, and I'm guessing that's not the only computer/console this applies to.
Secondly, I am (as you may guess by my username) a big fan of Phil Spector's music. All of his great records are in mono. They have been re-released in stereo, which increases the detail and separation so you can hear more of the actual production elements... and they all sound ten times worse. I'm thinking that the rules of sound could also be the rules for vision. That's certainly true for the Spectrum, and I've got a suspicion that it's true for the PC Engine and other 80s consoles as well. But of course, I'm not sure.

Damn, I wish I could see RGB and Composite side by side!    :|


But I'm not even talking RGB. I'm talking about getting the mod to fix the color drain and then outputting it in composite, s-video or whatever you want.

With the mod, composite looks as colorful/vibrant as S-Video, RGB & emulation, but you can still enjoy all those artifacts and blurriness you crave-

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« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 10:40:57 AM by Black_Tiger »
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Spector

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #202 on: February 06, 2007, 08:58:25 AM »
Oh right.  8)
Well, you can mod mine when I get it! Cause no-one else is answering my bloody emails...
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FM-77

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #203 on: February 06, 2007, 09:11:54 AM »
Remember that an RGB mod will allow you to use both RGB and composite. Win-win situation (or in my case, win-lose -  as I'd never torture myself with composite and I don't even want to have that option).

esteban

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #204 on: February 06, 2007, 09:27:41 AM »
As far as I'm concerned, the Turbo's composite quality is a defect, like the TE/GT sound issue its not a system destroying one, but like the TE/GT sound problem, fixing it only improves the game experience.

But like I've said before, if someone wants to play Duo games on a black & white TV while standing on their head, thats their business.  :)
:) Ahhh, but that's my point! Defect or not, we should be able to appreciate the aesthetic qualities of the composite video that the mass-produced consoles provided. I think we are talking past each other because you keep listing lots of reasons that "justify" a system modification, whereas I keep saying that the so-called "defects" and "flaws" in the hardware are crucial elements of video game aesthetics.

Go back to my old post when I talked about "purity" -- I was addressing Joe at the time, but now it applies to you as well: you want to unleash the purity that has been trapped in the PCE for all these years. You see it as a "potential" that was never fully realized.

I have no interest in this quest for the "cleanest video signal". I'm searching for a purity of a different sort: historically accurate aesthetics.

You and Joe (and most folks, I should add) viewpoint of a contemporary technician :) , whereas my perspective is more akin to that of an art historian.

I'm not saying my viewpoint is better! I'm simply asking for folks to acknowledge that "art historian" is a valid, useful perspective to take, since most folks laugh when I mention it :).
 
Quote from: B_T
Quote from: steve
Quote from: B_T
The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.

Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...

My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.

The point is that there is no standard original specification for game consoles.

I think that allowing Duo games to appear as colorful as they really are is just one more "medium".

As for the range of TV quality, every TV is different and each one radically changes the Duo's original specifications.
Well, yes and no. I agree that there is no "narrow" standard. However, this is easilly solved by having an inclusive defintion, as I have been arguing since my first post in this thread. I made the argument that there is a standard original specification for game consoles: it is defined by the range of over-the-counter hardware available to customers. Think of it as the "officially-sanctioned canon."

See? It really is straightforward. Even when we have an item like GB, which underwent a series of changes and evolutions, we can still identify distinct specifications with distinct eras in its lifespan.

The PCE / TG-16 began life as RF. Upgrades to the original models added A/V. Second generation+ PCE's were A/V out of the box. CD-ROM systems were A/V as well. This really isn't a confusing or contradictory range of specifications.

It's not hard to define the official canon. Repairing a PCE or GT/TE so that it regains what it lost is fine. Modifying a PCE so that it exceeds the official canon is where I draw the line.

---------------
Anyway, I think we both understand each other; we simply have different perspectives and different goals. Right? :)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 09:56:01 AM by stevek666 »
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Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #205 on: February 06, 2007, 11:24:01 AM »
Yes!  Our goals are to experience all the PCE has to offer.  Your goal is to limit yourself to what the kids who have it hooked up to channel 3 see.  I bet when I die I will go to a higher level of Heaven because God will love me more than you because I bet God likes RGB.   :P

Keranu

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #206 on: February 06, 2007, 02:15:19 PM »
Yes!  Our goals are to experience all the PCE has to offer.  Your goal is to limit yourself to what the kids who have it hooked up to channel 3 see.  I bet when I die I will go to a higher level of Heaven because God will love me more than you because I bet God likes RGB.   :P
God prefers people to use what the consoles were originally intended to use, not to alter his creation :) .
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #207 on: February 06, 2007, 03:17:09 PM »
God did not create the TurboGrafx/PC Engine.  God was busy working for Mattel at that time.

Keranu

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #208 on: February 06, 2007, 03:54:39 PM »
God did not create the TurboGrafx/PC Engine.  God was busy working for Mattel at that time.
No god sent prophet Moses to work at Mattel for him since he was busy designing the TG16 hardware. God working for Mattel was just a myth.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Tatsujin

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #209 on: February 06, 2007, 04:53:13 PM »
God prefers people to use what the consoles were originally intended to use, not to alter his creation :) .
but why the PCE lineup was always RGB-restricted products, when the MD or SFC wasn't? i may understand, that a core grafx made in '88 didn't support RGB neither S-Video, since those weren't standards at that time, but when the DUO came out, they really should rethink about their video-outputs. really!!
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