Author Topic: PC Engine AV mod  (Read 12974 times)

Spector

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2007, 12:13:55 AM »
Here comes a very non technical reply.  8-[

From my own experience I'll admit that the composite image produced by the Interface Unit isn't too bad, but some things I've noticed with the composite connection is that the colours can seem washed out or even dull, their can be visible shimmering on fast moving objects or even still images with areas of high contrast. You can also get colour bleed, particularly reds and blues have indistinct edges leading to some images looking slightly blurred.

With a properly done RGB mod, ( thanks to chaoticjelly  :D ) the colour is much improved, the shimmer disappears and the reds and blue's are much better defined leading to a sharper image overall.  :)


Are the graphics "blockier" looking as a result? I'd guess they would be. This is one thing I don't like about emulators - the image is too clear, and that is putting me off RGB a bit. The thought of washed out colours puts me off too though...
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Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2007, 12:21:57 AM »
Shimmering is about the worst aspect of using composite on older systems. Color bleed can be corrected if you have a good tv with a comb filter. 3-line to 3d filters will correct the color bleed you speak of. 2-line filters will battle it,but will still experience a little bit. I have 3 tvs in the house,1 Samsung,and 2 Apexs. Both of the Apex tvs have 3-line filters and have been calabrated with the Avia calibration utility. Neither Apex gets color bleed except on VHS or a very poorly mastered laserdisc. The Samsung only has a 2-line comb filter and its a poor quality one,so it can experience some color bleed. Its not terrible however,and the sharpnes is good even in composite.

Genesis wise,the composite output was poor to begin with,and depending on what model you have,it can be worse from deck to deck.The Genesis is def one of those systems that gets a huge boost when modded to s-video or when used with RGB.

FM-77

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2007, 12:29:03 AM »
Well, I dunno - am I really missing something here for not using rgb connections for a system like the tg16/pc-engine?

Oh absolutely! Especially since you said PCE, which easily has the worst composite output I've ever seen! Once you go RGB, you can never go back. Never. Of course, since it is a tv rather than a monitor, the picture is still slightly blurry, but it is nowhere near the infernal blur the composite output delivers. And the colors, oh the colors. The difference cannot be described with words, it really isn't possible.

The only good thing about composite is that it gives you that nice nostalgic feeling of having a bad picture on a bad tv. At least that's the feeling it gives me. :D

Spector

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2007, 12:47:08 AM »
Well, I dunno - am I really missing something here for not using rgb connections for a system like the tg16/pc-engine?

Oh absolutely! Especially since you said PCE, which easily has the worst composite output I've ever seen! Once you go RGB, you can never go back. Never. Of course, since it is a tv rather than a monitor, the picture is still slightly blurry, but it is nowhere near the infernal blur the composite output delivers. And the colors, oh the colors. The difference cannot be described with words, it really isn't possible.

The only good thing about composite is that it gives you that nice nostalgic feeling of having a bad picture on a bad tv. At least that's the feeling it gives me. :D

Okay Seldane, here's my question to you:
Do you prefer the technically perfect picture from a PC Engine emulator viewed on a monitor to a real PC Engine with its slight blur on a TV?
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ccovell

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2007, 01:15:48 AM »
What perfect timing.  I just opened up a page on my site I call "I want my RGB" that has (slightly badly photographed) comparisons of RGB and Composite video for several game systems.

You can see the comparison page here: http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/screenshots.html

Scroll to the bottom to see the PCE screenshots.

And I disagree with Seldane, the PCE/TG-16 have some of the best composite video of all the 8/16-bit systems.  If you've ever played the Neo-Geo or US Master System through composite, you'd understand.  The clarity of the PCE's composite is almost on par with the SNES/SFC.   Anyway, I invite you to check out my webpage.

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2007, 02:27:48 AM »
The perfect picture you speak of on a emulator isn't presenting the game as it was originally meant to be viewed. Most any emulator these days is run trough the hardware filters on your computers graphics card that wasn't possible on the original hardware. This has been commonplace since Power VR 2 days.

The actual system hardwares video output was designed around composite and rf analog signal,thats what they intended you to use. By doing the RGB mod you can intercept RGB off of the hardware and obtain a perfect picture in its purest form,however this is not how Hudson and NEC intended you to play as back then RGB was rare in homes,and you have to improve the RGB signals. Esp here in the USA analog RGB didn't gain a good foothold at all. Mostly it was used on computers like the C64/128 and medical equipment and arcade cabs. In Japan it had a slightly more common use but still small and limited to the elite home theater/gaming wise.

 S-video has been up until now what people considered the best visual output on home tvs in NTSC regions overall,until component surpassed it,but not effectively on SDTV. S-video was designed around 480i NTSC or 576i PAL,whereas Component was designed and intended for much higher res with progressive scan ability. Because of this,and some other factors coming into play,sometimes you can have a SDTV with both Component and S-video input and both have the same quality on screen. On some the Component video will be better,but not by much,and typically on these types of tvs where component is better,its because the S-video quality of this tv isn't so hot.

This happens alot on SDTV sets as the manufactures tend to do stupid things like:
If the TV offers Component,S-video,composite,and RF they sometimes crap out and use the worst components possible for the lower grade inputs so that composite will end up looking horrible,S-video will end up looking only slightly better then composite and Component will be absolute king. These kinda SDTVs tend to be the ones with 2-line comb filters,half the time,or 3-line filters that use poor quality chips that cause composite to be so horrible.
Without a good comb filter composite suffers from alot of dot crawl,color bleed,picture noise,ect ect...

Some people don't know this so I am going to list it,The comb filter in your tv is used for composite and Rf,not your S-video and Component video. If you get into laserdisc collecting you'll also find out sometimes your Tvs comb filter can be weaker then your laserdisc players,granted you have a LD player with s-video out and a comb filter,and your TV is dirt old,like early to mid 90ies. All ld players with s-video have comb filters on board to clean the image before it gets sent to the Tv. The only time this isn't the case is if you have a hacked/mod s-video port on a LD player like the laseractive as some people mod those. On good modern tvs with great comb filters better then the one on your LD player you can actually get a better picture using your LD players composite output then using your LD players S-video.


A well built SDTV will have S-video with quality on par with the Component and both will be from a  visual standpoint outstanding looking. These days its going to be harder to find tvs like this SDTV wise. My 24 inch Apex monitor only has S-video and composite,but its quality is superior to my friends Sony Wega 36 inch S-video and composite quality,and is on par with his Component picture quality when compared to my Apexs S-video. I hear people complain about this problem alot with Sony and Philips/Magnovox SDTVs of varring screen sizes also saying the S-video is poorer then what it should be and composite is more RF like then anything else.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 07:36:46 AM by Michael Helgeson »

Spector

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2007, 02:53:35 AM »
The perfect picture you speak of on a emulator isn't presenting the game as it was originally meant to be viewed. Most any emulator these days is run trough the hardware filters on your computers graphics card that wasn't possible on the original hardware. This has been commonplace since Power VR 2 days.

The actual system hardwares video output was designed around composite and rf analog signal,thats what they intended you to use. By doing the RGB mod you can intercept RGB off of the hardware and obtain a perfect picture in its purest form,however this is not how Hudson and NEC intended you to play as back then RGB was rare in homes,and you have to improve the RGB signals. Esp here in the USA analog RGB didn't gain a good foothold at all. Mostly it was used on computers like the C64/128 and medical equipment and arcade cabs. In Japan it had a slightly more common use but still small and limited to the elite home theater/gaming wise.


Your comments about Composite and RGB with respect to the PC Engine along with ccovell's screenshot comparisons (which don't show too much difference) suggest that for me, an AV rather than an RGB mod is the way to go.
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Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2007, 03:35:44 AM »
Yea the Pc-Engine/TurboGrafx composite is some of the best composite output for a system Ive ever seen myself. Its still worlds above the Genesis and if your tv is well built is very nice/sharp and with great color.

Keranu

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2007, 07:15:49 AM »
What perfect timing.  I just opened up a page on my site I call "I want my RGB" that has (slightly badly photographed) comparisons of RGB and Composite video for several game systems.

You can see the comparison page here: http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/screenshots.html

Scroll to the bottom to see the PCE screenshots.

And I disagree with Seldane, the PCE/TG-16 have some of the best composite video of all the 8/16-bit systems.  If you've ever played the Neo-Geo or US Master System through composite, you'd understand.  The clarity of the PCE's composite is almost on par with the SNES/SFC.   Anyway, I invite you to check out my webpage.

That page you made is awesome, thanks! I'm impressed with the PCE's composite quality in those shots. Personally, I think the composite looks a bit better for the most part actually. To me, going through a RGB mode for PCE certainly wouldn't be worth it. Same thing goes with NES and SNES.

I admit though, the RGB on SMS and Genesis looks very nice! Of course those systems, as already posted, didn't have good composite to begin with. I've been thinking about doing an s-video mod on my Genesis for awhile now and if it's as good as the RGB in those shots, then I'll have to consider doing it in the future.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2007, 08:24:22 AM »
As far as Genesis goes,more examples here:
http://www.sega-16.com/Seeing%20is%20Believing-%20Video%20Connections%202.php

I'm sure Joe remembers doing this. Nothing like seeing Midnight Resistance in its full glory.

Keranu

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2007, 10:08:48 AM »
Nice link, Mike. He mentioned that people usually charge around $60 for s-video mods, how much would this cost to do yourself? I recall a friend of mine who does Genesis s-video mods saying it costs him much less than that.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2007, 10:50:36 AM »
It depends on the Genesis involved. Model 3 only takes like 7 bucks in parts. The last run of model 2s Gens have the same Sony CX as the Genesis 3 and use the same 7 bucks in parts. Some Genesis 2 decks cant be done at all due to they sometimes had Samsung chips in them. Some have the older Sony CX and can still be done but like the Genesis 1 require a tad bit more work and parts. Around 15-20 bucks worth depending on where you buy your stuff at.

The last Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 decks are the easiest to do. CDX is a pain period. JVC X-eye can be modded too btw.

FM-77

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2007, 10:52:31 AM »
Wow, people preferring composite over RGB, I have actually never seen this. Almost shocking! Or are you just narrow-minded and refuse to realize the awful truth by lying?  :roll:

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2007, 11:23:41 AM »
Not sure who your refering to,I perfer RGB (on a arcade monitor or c 64 monitor) over anything else myself if "good" RGB is obtainable. Not everyone has a RGB monitor though,and most SDTV sets just support composite and s-video.

Thing is I do think the RGB or S-video gain from a PC-Engine isn't as big a leap for that system as it is for you to get RGB or S-video from a Genesis deck. Regardless of what you say Seldane composite is pretty good for the Tg/Pc-Engine,esp if you have a great TV with a great comb filter. It still wont be as good as RGB or S-video,but its still pretty damn good,unless its Pal composite. There is a reason people perfer RGB scart to composite there in Europe,cause Pal runs slower and crunches the screen on alot of game systems. Pal simply sucks ass. if I lived in Europe I'd only use RGB period.

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2007, 11:26:07 AM »
To answer a question from earlier, no, uprading the video to s-video or RGB or component does NOT make it appear more blocky.  If you play on an SDTV, you still get 240p.  If you play on an HDTV, it'll look blocky no matter how you hook it up.

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