PC Engine AV mod

[Keranu]

Wow, people preferring composite over RGB, I have actually never seen this. Almost shocking! Or are you just narrow-minded and refuse to realize the awful truth by lying? 

On the link Chris provided, component did look better for the most part, but just slightly. However in a few pictures I saw, I thought the composite looked a little better since it made the dithering smoother and the colors actually looked brighter. But it's not really the picture why I prefer composite over component, but for the following reasons: the composite output is already built in, it's a lot cheaper (don't need a fancy TV, any special hardware, no modding), I don't have to waste my time or effort modding a system myself or sending it to get modded, and lastly so I don't have to modify the shape of my system and can keep it how it was originally designed. If you're a videophile and don't mind putting down a lot of money for a mod to make the picture look a little better on your TV, be my guest. For me, I'll be using my money for what gaming is supposed to be used for: GAMES!

[FM-77]

Believe me, the colors are NOT brighter when using composite, it's the other way around. TOTALLY the other way around. If you compare composite vs rgb in reality (i e not pictures/video) you'll see the massive difference.

Also: I spent $2 total in order to get my PCE to output RGB of perfection. No more, no less.

[Keranu]

Believe me, the colors are NOT brighter when using composite, it's the other way around. TOTALLY the other way around. If you compare composite vs rgb in reality (i e not pictures/video) you'll see the massive difference.

Well I guess I would have to see the difference in real life, but honestly I see nothing wrong with using composite so I'll stick with what the console was designed for.

Also: I spent $2 total in order to get my PCE to output RGB of perfection. No more, no less.

You left out the part saying that the typical American like myself needing to buy a new TV with component output. And also $2 is still plenty of good money to use on games!

[Michael Helgeson]

True the cost to tap RGB is about nill on the Pc-Engine,the effort on the other hand is a bit more,esp for people with no prior mod experience. And there are plenty of people who are just fine with composite,and are happy with how it looks. Its not worth arguing over or trying to insult someone over because it boils down to personal perference which can change from person to person.

Not just that,the RGB mod may be cheap,and if you live in europe your tv probably accepts RGB scart already,but over here you have to trow down cash for a RGB capable monitor. Thats not worth it for some people as Keranu said,who are not videophiles. Take that into account and add the fact that if you want component video out and you want that mod done on each system individually its going to cost some cash and effort to do unless you build a breakout box and use a universal type cord system tapping normal rgb and converting it into component,which still cost more then 2 bucks.

[Joe Redifer]

Modding my Turbo for RGB was TOTALLY worth it.  Yes, the Turbo's composite is extremely good, but it shimmers like a bitch when the screen scrolls.  On Ys 1&2, when Feena appears on the title screen using the oval crystal to cover her enormous tits, her blue her is flickering back and forth.  Looks bad.  With RGB, all of the shimmering is gone, Feena's hair doesn't flicker and she doesn't use the oval crystal to block her boobs, she shows them in full glory!    But seriously, more details can be seen, the reds are MUCH better (the other colors are only a teeny bit better than composite).

I'm wondering how ccovell or whatever his name is got his NES to output RGB.

[Michael Helgeson]

Modding my Turbo for RGB was TOTALLY worth it.  Yes, the Turbo's composite is extremely good, but it shimmers like a bitch when the screen scrolls.  On Ys 1&2, when Feena appears on the title screen using the oval crystal to cover her enormous tits, her blue her is flickering back and forth.  Looks bad.  With RGB, all of the shimmering is gone, Feena's hair doesn't flicker and she doesn't use the oval crystal to block her boobs, she shows them in full glory!    But seriously, more details can be seen, the reds are MUCH better (the other colors are only a teeny bit better than composite).

I'm wondering how ccovell or whatever his name is got his NES to output RGB.

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/fctitler.html

[ccovell]

Re: Famicom
Jeez, nobody clicked on the "back" link at the bottom of my screenshots page? 

Here's the main RGB page, with short descriptions of the systems that I have gotten RGB from.
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/index.html

And unfortunately people are already confusing composite(A/V), component, and RGB on this board     Composite and RGB have been around for a long time, and for old systems like the ones on my page, RGB is the purest possible signal.  Component is the standard for newer systems, and it does not send pure R, G, B signals over the cables, but rather a mixed signal Y,Pr,Pb (?) that gets mathematically separated into R,G,B once again.  The upside of Component is that it has standards for progressive scan and HDTV, etc.

[termis]

Great discussion here.  And ccovell and Joe Rediger - good articles.  I have a much better idea about what the advantages are now.  The problem is, as some of you stated - I'd need a new TV in the first place, and that won't be happening anytime soon.

I guess I was more into upgrading the sound system to make the gaming experience more enjoyable.  And considering sound systems can be used for anything, and you don't need to modify individual systems, I found an upgrade in audio to be a "better value" for enjoying gaming overall.

[Keranu]

And unfortunately people are already confusing composite(A/V), component, and RGB on this board     Composite and RGB have been around for a long time, and for old systems like the ones on my page, RGB is the purest possible signal.  Component is the standard for newer systems, and it does not send pure R, G, B signals over the cables, but rather a mixed signal Y,Pr,Pb (?) that gets mathematically separated into R,G,B once again.  The upside of Component is that it has standards for progressive scan and HDTV, etc.

Well as I said, I'm no video techie (and happy to not be), but you guys get what I'm saying.

[Michael Helgeson]

Re: Famicom
Jeez, nobody clicked on the "back" link at the bottom of my screenshots page? 

Here's the main RGB page, with short descriptions of the systems that I have gotten RGB from.
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/index.html

And unfortunately people are already confusing composite(A/V), component, and RGB on this board     Composite and RGB have been around for a long time, and for old systems like the ones on my page, RGB is the purest possible signal.  Component is the standard for newer systems, and it does not send pure R, G, B signals over the cables, but rather a mixed signal Y,Pr,Pb (?) that gets mathematically separated into R,G,B once again.  The upside of Component is that it has standards for progressive scan and HDTV, etc.

Some people just don't know because they have very little experience with any of it. Alot of people assume because of lack of knowledge that component was normal RGB like that found in scart or jamma,c64 monitors and normal RGB monitors,and they don't know that Component uses things like sync on green and other methods and is a different type of signal. You really have to break it down for people with lots of details because if they have little knowledge of it they wont understand the difference otherwise and all they visualize is those red,green,and blue Component cables and think,RGB.

Also I posted a link to your Fami mod for Joe. I checked over your site,it was all pretty cool stuff.

[Joe Redifer]

Jeez, nobody clicked on the "back" link at the bottom of my screenshots page? 

Geez man, sorry.  I must be too stupid to even deserve RGB. 

Anyway the end result between component and RGB should be identical.  Component doesn't lose any image quality from RGB, it just does things differently to conserve bandwidth.  In the end it all depends on your display, and there are quite a few TVs I've seen out there that do bad component.  Also, I don't have any vertical lines in the blues on my Genesis, but I do see some vertical lines in my Turbo's RGB output.

[Black Tiger]

Believe me, the colors are NOT brighter when using composite, it's the other way around. TOTALLY the other way around. If you compare composite vs rgb in reality (i e not pictures/video) you'll see the massive difference.

Also: I spent $2 total in order to get my PCE to output RGB of perfection. No more, no less.

It's true. Even if the Turbo/PCE's composite was good for it's time, it doesn't change the fact that the color is totally drained from the picture and dithering turns into unnatural colors. I'm no techy spec-head, so I won't try to guess at the causes of the degradation, and it's besides the point.


http://members.shaw.ca/turboduo/svideo.html

Take a look at the cinema shot with the blonde haired soldier. The two skin tones get 'blended' with an ugly puke green. Regardless of the why's and how's, you get a clear picture with RGB/S-Video that lets you see the real graphics, just as the developer's intended you to never see. 

In the case of Forgotten Worlds, Capcom never intended their arcade game to be strained through PC Engine hardware anyway.

The other major thing, is that the colors look vibrant and are similar to emulation.


http://superpcenginegrafx.com/wii_video_temp.html

In the link above, if you compare the S-Video screenshots to the emulated ones, they're very similar. Which shows how good the S-Video/RGB mod is.

Further down you can see how colorless the composite Turbo/PCE screenshots look compared to emulation and the Wii. But if you look at the rollover images of the Wii vs Turbo/PCE S-Video they're about the same. Then look at the Wii vs Turbo/PCE composite rollovers. The Wii composite image still looks nice and vibrant, but the Turbo/PCE image looks like it got crossed with a b&w image.

So even if the Turbo/PCE composite was one of the best back in the day, it certainly does kick the crap out of the graphics before they reach the screen, compared to the Wii's composite.

The Turbo/PCE S-Video mod as I understand it, is a hack of the RGB mod. So the RGB will look even better(not much) on a TV that supports it or when transcoded(or whatever) into component and played on a TV that supports 240p.

And like Seldane said, on a real TV, the difference is more noticeable than screenshots and photos.

[Spector]

But can't you just turn the colour dial up on your TV to compensate for loss of colour?   

[Black Tiger]

But can't you just turn the colour dial up on your TV to compensate for loss of colour?   

You can and it does help some games in some places, but best case scenario it's still nowhere near as nice as the RGB/S-Video mod and only makes things like the dithering vommit effect worse.

[Michael Helgeson]

I take it the screen caps are done via capture card. Im kinda curious as to what card because some cap cards do a horrible job of capping composite signal because they have zero comb filter power to speak of.

And even so,the Bomber Man comparison looks no where near as bad as Deans fudged lowered color pics. Im not saying composite is better then s-video,cause its not,but I had Forgotten Worlds back when I saw that Deans page there,back around when I first joined,and compared his pics to my Tvs image and mine looked much better,more along his s-video pics color wise. His pics looked like the color was lowered on purpose and the tint was played with. Seemed like a ploy to sell mods. I think I will have my friend,who still has the game for Pc-Engine,run it in composite on his Sony Wega when he gets back home next week,and take pics for me to post here.