PC Engine AV mod

[esteban]

I must reply to the film having a moire effect.  Film does not have moire.  Video does.

Digital photography and film transferred to video can certainly can have the moire effect. The point, though, is that even this unfortunate event (moire effect) is not enough of a reason to hate RF / composite / s-video artifacts in video games, IMO. I've never played a game and said "Oh, the shimmering! Oh the moire effect! Oh the horror!" Seriously, this stuff doesn't detract from gameplay.

[esteban]

All in good fun :

**slaps forehead**

It is obvious that most of the people here who hate RGB with all of their being have never played in RGB.  Like I said before, if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.

No, you keep missing the point. I don't hate RGB. I am not anti-RGB. Rather, and take the time to let this sink in: I am arguing that RGB /component is not the end-all and be-all of video game aesthetics. Get it?

I am putting forth a "theory" about digital art. See below where I quote myself (toward the end of this post).

To the person who said that when they use emulators that they like to use filters with scan lines to simulate how it looks on a TV...  RGB STILL HAS SCANLINES!  It looks nothing like an emulator.  Jeebus, it's like arguing politics with someone who's never even looked into the subject.  RGB and s-video sure aren't "blocky", no more so than composite.  In fact you'll have less resolution with composite. 

If you noticed, I took the time to distinguish between video output methods and the types of displays throughout this thread. When I discuss emulators, I do so to highlight my own personal aesthetic tastes and create an "extreme" benchmark of digital purity. I thought it was self-evident, but I have been using a continuum ranging from RF + standard TV <---> emulator + computer monitor. Where does beauty begin and end on this continuum? We all have different tastes.

It is far more distracting than the non-shimmering well-defined dither that RGB and equivalent offers.  RGB and the like also gets rid of all of that nasty "rainbow effect" on the screen as well.  Oh wait... the designers intended for the rainbow effects in high detail areas to be there?  Yeah, I'm sure they did. 

Well, this is related to our other point about the moire effect. As I said, this is unfortunate, but it isn't a deal breaker. See my prior comment!

You just keep on believing that.  And for the person who thinks RGB looks too "sterile", nothing could be further from the truth unless you like the graininess from RF in your games.  I suggest that you NEVER convert to HDTV because you will not be able to handle the sterile-ness  of the picture.  I bet you hate DVD, too... unless you hook it up with RF which you must if that is your argument.  In short, the picture is every bit as "alive" with RGB and the like.  I know what you are trying to say, but as far as I'm concerned, it is not an issue in video-game land.

Again, if y'all had RGB, you'd like it.

Again, you don't get it! I'll be lame and quote myself:

I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics. We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with. When Sega or Data East(!) were designing games for the arcade, they had a very specific array of hardware and displays in mind.

My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.

Joe, re-read my prior response to Black_Tiger. I think I explained where I was coming from.

Peace, love and harmony

[ccovell]

I completely understand what Stevek666 had to say, in that the aesthetics of the matter are completely subjective.  RGB is technically superior, but what each person will prefer is up to him.

As for me, RGB does NOT look sterile.  I remember playing games like Pac-Man and Pole-Position in the arcades (remember, ancient technology), and the pure blues of the maze, and especially the solid pixels of everything in Pole Position really were appealing to me.  Playing the same on a TV is a 'little' bit distracting with all the blurring that goes on between saturated colours, and so I prefer RGB for any system.  And the shimmering with dithered/striped graphics on systems like the PCE, NES, and SMS is distracting.

But as Hamlet said, "The Play's the Thing", and something like RGB/Composite is not entirely important if you are enjoying yourself with a great game.  It's just that with RGB my eyes get some enjoyment too.

[esteban]

They're composite fanboys. Arguing against RGB because they don't own it. Just like people argue against PS3 (for example) because they don't own it. It is human nature, everyone works this way. Saying bad things about stuff they don't own, because deep down, they really want it but can't have it (for various reasons).

I know you're just kidding . And I think your post is damn funny !

But Joe, poor Joe, will think you're being literal!

[Michael Helgeson]

I'm not really sure if using the PS3 in your argument is going to get you anywhere. I love RGB and despise the PS3,just as I despised the PS2,and PS1. I've messed with the PS3,I don't care for it. Its not worth the asking price. I owned a PS1 and PS2. I never liked either system hardware wise,and only liked a few titles for each system,typically the Namco titles. Any of the other titles on PS2 that I wanted I ended up buying the pc ports of them.

As for DVD, I never liked it or disliked it as a movie format.  I love it for data and file storage.
The only actual movie format I ever liked was the Laser Disc format.

I completely understand the reasons as to why they want composite and the old feel to it,and you really shouldn't knock them for it. Some people are perfectly happy with what they have,never feel like complaining,and don't feel like investing the extra $200-400 just for a improved video signal. To some its simply not worth it,to others it is. I think they understand the benefits of RGB, I mean you posted pics that did show improvements over composite Joe.

[termis]

Maybe not directly related, but the "too clean" argument does have some merit.  I recall hooking up my satellite box to my 32" Sony WEGA I had at the time using SVHS connections, and since it was "too clean", it was easy to see ugly compression artifacts from satellite signals and DVDs and so forth (but they were barely visible with composite).  Now, I know in that case the problem lied with the crappy video _source_, but nevertheless, the whole  "maybe it wasn't intended to be that clean" argument does have some merit.

That said, I kept still kept the SVHS connection on, because overall, it did look better when the source was good.

...if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.

And I'm pretty sure I'd agree with that.  Even though I don't have RGB, I'm sure I'd like it, and will probably go that route once I'm all set up somewhere to finally have my own "entertainment room".

Overall, I think the composite guys are generally saying, it doesn't matter _all that much_ - which I think is true for most average gamers.  For me, I can't imagine the thought of playing consoles that support stereo in mono, but I'm sure there are a lot of guys that don't care one way or the other.

[Joe Redifer]

Well I'm not much into art even though I am an artist.  I never said that games aren't fun if they're not in RGB.  I'm just saying that it is aesthetically better than composite by a factor of about 20 for me.  What do you guys do when you see a PlayChoice 10 in an arcade?  It's hooked up in RGB.  Do you think a real NES looks better at home?  How about stuff like Pac Man and Ms. Pac Man?  Those games have even crappier color palettes than the TurboGrafx yet there they are in RGB.  The reason I am being so hard on some of you is because you make it sound like you'd never appreciate RGB if you had it, and I'm pretty sure you would.  I think the key thing here is nostalgia.  You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present.  That's gotta be it.

And it doesn't cost up to $400 for RGB.  Not sure where that figure came from.

As for the moire thing, that has nothing to do with film and everything to do with video.  Film is not even in the equation.  It's what video does to the image due to a poor telecine process and also the crap resolution of VHS.  Watch film on film and you won't see any moire unless maybe it had a digital intermediate somewhere along the line.  Oh well, we can let this one go since it really doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.

[Michael Helgeson]

Well I'm not much into art even though I am an artist.  I never said that games aren't fun if they're not in RGB.  I'm just saying that it is aesthetically better than composite by a factor of about 20 for me.  What do you guys do when you see a PlayChoice 10 in an arcade?  It's hooked up in RGB.  Do you think a real NES looks better at home?  How about stuff like Pac Man and Ms. Pac Man?  Those games have even crappier color palettes than the TurboGrafx yet there they are in RGB.  The reason I am being so hard on some of you is because you make it sound like you'd never appreciate RGB if you had it, and I'm pretty sure you would.  I think the key thing here is nostalgia.  You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present.  That's gotta be it.

And it doesn't cost up to $400 for RGB.  Not sure where that figure came from.

As for the moire thing, that has nothing to do with film and everything to do with video.  Film is not even in the equation.  It's what video does to the image due to a poor telecine process and also the crap resolution of VHS.  Watch film on film and you won't see any moire unless maybe it had a digital intermediate somewhere along the line.  Oh well, we can let this one go since it really doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.

Actually Joe, as most of these people who love composite,like Keranu,prob only have tvs in their game room doing composite,and maybe s-video,they are going to need
1. A: RGB monitor. A new custom built Wells garner in a box RGB monitor can run around $400-900 depending on the size of the CGA tube OR  B: 25-27 inch Component capable TV set that is of good quality. $200-240.
2.RGB mods for every old system,that does not offer RGB out by AV port,price will vary depending on system and how much work is involved. Most people who do not feel good about their soldering skills are going to have to pay someone to do the RGB mods,and that can get expensive depending on who does the mod for them. Most anytime I have seen someone offer to do a Pc-Engine RGB mod they usually charge $40-70.
3. A RGB to Component video converter if they plan to use a component Tv. This will run $50-80 depending on the quality of the item.
4. New cables for all this. Lets be cheap and say $10 for the cheap stuff.
 Lets do a add up for a couple of systems and a component set up.
We will use the minimum prices.
Tv 200
 Couple of systems modded for RGB 40x2=80
RGB to Component box 40
Cables 10.

All together before any type of sales tax is $330. This is doing it on a cheapskate budget using the lowest quality parts available and hoping you know someone who will do the mods for 40 bucks each on lets say,umm, a Pc-Engine and a TG-16 or Snes 2 deck.
I guess you just assumed everyone here has Component capable tv sets.

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah I was pretty sure component was the norm these days.  I see component on more TV sets (SDTV) than s-video.  Many Sony SDTVs don't even have s-video any more.  My TV is 20 inches (maybe 21?) and was definitely less than $200.  And before that I had a 13 inch TV that just happened to have component, which is why I bought the SCART RGB to YUV transcoder.  Then I bought SCART RGB cables.  The only system I had to mod was the TurboGrafx-16 CD attachment unit.  The TurboGrafx itself remains unmodded.  As far as 10 SCART RGB cables?  I only have 5... Genesis, SNES, TurboGrafx, Saturn, NeoGeo (teh future iz now... MEGA SHOCK!).  Oh yeah I had to have an RGB bypass done since SNK was pathetic when they built the NeoGeo.  All in all I'd say I spent around $200 for my setup, TV not included.  As you say, it's not for everybody, but that in no way means composite is aesthetically better unless for nostalgic reasons.

As for all of the other systems, they are hooked up to an HDTV since they can provide 480p or better.  And they all have component cables.

[Keranu]

Whoa, whoa, things are getting a little crazy around here. Lets all cool down. 

It is obvious that most of the people here who hate RGB with all of their being have never played in RGB.  Like I said before, if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.

You're right, I haven't experienced RGB on an older console.  However I never said I flat out didn't like RGB and I appreciate what it offers. However as stated multiple times already: 1. ) I like what composite offers already and have no problems with it, 2. ) I prefer to keep my older consoles intact and untouched, 3. ) I do not want to spend a lot of money just to play my games in RGB. It's all taste, my friend, no need to get angry.

This kind of reminds me of playing old Gameboy games. In my house, I have a variety of Gameboy systems: Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, and GBA SP. When I have enough batteries laying around (I really need to get an AC adapter), I love to play the old Gameboy games on the original Gameboy, with it's green screen glory. To me it just feels nicer to play these older games for what they were designed for and it brings out the best experience of Gameboy to me. Doesn't mean I don't like to play it on the Pocket or SP, but I can't help but loving these games on the original the most. So you play your games on your Gameboy and I'll play mine on mine .

RGB and s-video sure aren't "blocky", no more so than composite.

I might have to see that in person to take your word for it, but in the RGB and s-video pictures I've seen posted in this thread, I have seen some blocky pixels. Check out the third pic in this link for a good example in s-video and this pic for a good example in RGB.

I can tell when they use dithering on composite as well.  It's not like the dithering blurs into its own brand new color.  Anyone who thinks it does either needs to get their eyes checked or owns a cheap-ass TV from Wal*Mart.  Instead of blending into a new color, dithering Turbo/PCE games instead flicker/shimmer back and forth like mad!

I can also tell when dithering is used on composite. In my opinion, the composite does a better job "blending" the dithering though. Also if dithering isn't used to blend in a new shade of color, then what is it for? You mentioned earlier that some Turbo games were forced to use dithering because there weren't enough shades available, but this doesn't make sense to me if dithering isn't used for "blending in" colors.

I think the key thing here is nostalgia.  You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present.  That's gotta be it.

Well actually no. The reason being I never noticed these things when I was a kid playing games ! In fact I haven't really noticed this whole shimmering thing until you brought it up and honestly it's nothing that bothers me. So whenever I see shimmering in the games I play now, I think of you, dear Joe . As for rainbow effects, those kinda look cool!

[Joe Redifer]

I have seen some blocky pixels. Check out the third pic in this link for a good example in s-video and this pic for a good example in RGB.

I'm not seeing any blockiness in those pictures that's not the usual result of 240p.  Perhaps your are confusing "blocky" with the dithering which is more defined?  Again, if these pictures look worse to you than composite (which they seem to), then I have no clue how you could ever appreciate a real arcade game.

As stated before, dithering is like crosshatching.  It doesn't blur into a new color with composite, instead it flickers like crazy or it moires, making it really stand out against the other colors.

[Keranu]

I'm not seeing any blockiness in those pictures that's not the usual result of 240p.  Perhaps your are confusing "blocky" with the dithering which is more defined?  Again, if these pictures look worse to you than composite (which they seem to), then I have no clue how you could ever appreciate a real arcade game.

Yes, the RGB makes the dithering more defined, which in my opinion, looses the magic of the effect. And yes you are right, the RGB pictures in the most part do look worse than the composite in my opinion, however I'm not saying the RGB doesn't look good and doesn't have it's advantages, which I believe I've already stated. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say how I could never appreciate a real arcade game when I really do because as I've said before, I never said I hate RGB. Also as Steve pointed out, old console games in composite have a different quality than arcade games do in a cabinet.

As stated before, dithering is like crosshatching.  It doesn't blur into a new color with composite, instead it flickers like crazy or it moires, making it really stand out against the other colors.

Wikipedia, even though it's not a source I necessarily like to use, has a pretty good article on dithering. If you go down to the "Digital photography and image processing" section, you can read the following:

"Dithering is a technique used in computer graphics to create the illusion of color depth in images with a limited color palette (color quantization). In a dithered image, colors not available in the palette are approximated by a diffusion of colored pixels from within the available palette. The human eye perceives the diffusion as a mixture of the colors within it (see color vision). Dithering is analogous to the halftone technique used in printing. Dithered images, particularly those with relatively few colors, can often be distinguished by a characteristic graininess, or speckled appearance."

So while dithering doesn't technically create a new color, it gives the illusion of it, which is why it's used in the first place.

[Joe Redifer]

Yes, but I'd rather have my fake color not distract me with mad flickering and/or moire rainbows.  Mad flickering and moire also lose the magic of the effect... an effect where there really isn't any magic.

Also as Steve pointed out, old console games in composite have a different quality than arcade games do in a cabinet.

Yes, that's because arcade games are in RGB.  The PlayChoice 10 is an NES, technically.

[Keranu]

Yes, but I'd rather have my fake color not distract me with mad flickering and/or moire rainbows.  Mad flickering and moire also lose the magic of the effect... an effect where there really isn't any magic.

Like I said, you play your Gameboy games on yours and I'll play mine on mine . Personally I think you have to be a videophile for the shimmering to bother you enough to mod your system.

Also as Steve pointed out, old console games in composite have a different quality than arcade games do in a cabinet.

Yes, that's because arcade games are in RGB.  The PlayChoice 10 is an NES, technically.

I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying, but those arcade games are actually designed for RGB while 16-bit and earlier consoles were designed with RF / composite in mind, so each have their own kind of quality to them.

[Joe Redifer]

The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES!  I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB.  Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying.  There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games.  Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine?