PC Engine AV mod

[Keranu]

You said arcades are different but home consoles are designed around composite.  If Nintendo designed their machine to have the best display in composite, why wouldn't the PlayChoice 10 use composite as well?  Why would they hook it up via RGB and risk losing all of the magical properties that the dithering has?  My whole point is this:  If you think arcades look nice, then you'd think home consoles in RGB would look nice... as in better than composite.  I can understand not wanting to spend the money on it, though.

I'm not a tech person, so I don't know how possible it is to use composite in a arcade cabinet. The point is they took their NES hardware, hooked it up in the arcade via RGB since that's what arcade games generally used and decided to make a few bucks in the arcade from kids who weren't playing NES at home. They didn't care about how the NES graphics would look on the arcade monitor .

I remember a couple of years ago (2000?) when I had a TV that didn't support RGB. I used composite for everything I had (even PS2, etc) and I thought it looked good. When I got a new TV that HAD RGB support, I used it on the systems that supported it, liked it, had to mod my other systems so that they would support it as well, and now I can't even look at composite anymore. I think RGB would have that effect on everybody.

For me personally, I wouldn't spend my money on technically improving my video for older systems and having my ancient consoles being cut open and having new wires installed into them and what not. Furthermore, I would much rather spend the money on buying a big ass TV and using my pimped out RF and composite on that  .

Actually it would be completely possible to build an RGB cable with a giganto-huge connector that fits on the back of the PC Engine and outputs RGB.  Of course that would eliminate playing CD games.  Man, NEC could have thought things through a little more when providing the outputs on their system. They were the only ones without a jack that did RGB, if you don't count the expansion bus.

Why would they need to add a jack that did RGB back then? The vast majority of gamers back then were using RF, it was probably something they didn't even need to think about.

[SharkSkin-Man]

As for the Pc-Engine scene in the UK in the 80ies,yea it did have a good one. But I got a question,since everyone was using their Pc-Engine in RGB,does that mean everyone was doing RGB mods?

Yeah, a lot of importers were RGB modding the machines they sold. This was born out of necessity as much as anything else - at the time most UK TVs would not display a NTSC 3.58 signal via RF/Composite, you would either get a rolling picture or a stable but black and white one. If you bought an import Megadrive, Super Famicom, NeoGeo etc you would normally get a SCART cable with it too.

The most common mod was a hole drilled at the side of the PCE casing and running a hardwired SCART cable out of it.


I do remember seeing some where a computer ribbon cable with a scart plug on the end was fed through the gap at the rear of the machine above the interface connector (this was before the CD-ROM was released obviously).

[FM-77]

For me personally, I wouldn't spend my money on technically improving my video for older systems and having my ancient consoles being cut open and having new wires installed into them and what not. Furthermore, I would much rather spend the money on buying a big ass TV and using my pimped out RF and composite on that  .

I didn't spend any money on improving the video for my systems, I bought a big ass TV and used the rgb cables I previously had for all my systems (because they all provided RGB natively - Mega Drive, SNES, Saturn, etc etc).

[Black Tiger]

The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES!  I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB.  Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying.  There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games.  Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? 

There was a Jamma -based TG-16 arcade machine that used modified TG-16 hardware. I lost my bid to the one and only time I saw it on ebay, but D-Lite was kind enough to scan the instructions that came with it. I don't know if he ever got around to getting the kit working, but I'm hoping one day to see this documented . I'll reply to your other points tomorrow morning .

You folks have completely and utterly confused every point I made in my initial post.

The Bloody Wolf arcade is basically a PC Engine.

Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? 

I'm not sure if it was a pirated board or not, but I first played Kato Chan & Ken Chan in an arcade machine in Korea 20 some odd years ago.  Like some playchoice-10 machines, a single credit bought some play time, as opposed to playing until you ran out of men.

And to keep it on topic, I have no idea whether that was in RGB or not 

(Dang, you beat me to the "post" button stevek666)

I once saw a SMB2 arcade like that. It looked like a total custom job.

Quote from: Joe
I can tell when they use dithering on composite as well.  It's not like the dithering blurs into its own brand new color.  Anyone who thinks it does either needs to get their eyes checked or owns a cheap-ass TV from Wal*Mart.  Instead of blending into a new color, dithering Turbo/PCE games instead flicker/shimmer back and forth like mad!
I can also tell when dithering is used on composite. In my opinion, the composite does a better job "blending" the dithering though. Also if dithering isn't used to blend in a new shade of color, then what is it for? You mentioned earlier that some Turbo games were forced to use dithering because there weren't enough shades available, but this doesn't make sense to me if dithering isn't used for "blending in" colors.

Although dithering is usually used to blend colors, the blending is often ruined by the composite of some TV's because often it really does blur into its own brand new color(but not the color intended).

In these cases, it's the more obvious dithering, like big strips of wire fence that you do notice.


-I've read several times here "blockiness" used to describe something perceived to be pixelated and has caused some confusion. I think some people are using 'blockiness' to describe the edges of sprites and such where others are using it to describe the pixels of shading/dithering.

When you can make out most of the pixels of a game's graphics in composite, what's really being lost in the jump to RGB/etc when you just get to make out the last 25+% of the pixels?


From what I've read of explanations of personal preference from diehard composite loving fanboys like Steve, it sounds like you guys only have a problem with the sharpness/clear image of everything above composite and simply aren't bothered by some of the unfortunate effects(like shimmering).

You guys must love all the classic compilations and VC Turbo games that give you the vibrant color of the real graphics(that you normally only see on moldy consoles through better than composite output) while blurring out all those annoying pixels.


I'm too tired to figure out which emoticons to put where, so feel free to match any of the following faces to any sentences that sound too serious or negative:    O:)                    :arrow:

[Joe Redifer]

I think it's funny how some people say RF/Composite/S-video is OK but not RGB.  Personally I'd put S-video closer to RGB than to Composite.  It is much cleaner, and you only get a little bit of color bleed (usually in the reds).  With my Saturn and SNES it can be pretty difficult to tell the difference between S-video and RGB unless you know exactly what to look for (the hearts in Castlevania IV no longer smear, etc).

Also, I wanted to point out that dithering is not bad.  It can be used when the "magic" of composite isn't even in the equation, like DS games.  Look at this picture I took of "Phoenix Wright 2: Phoenix Touches the Judge Inappropriately":



As you can see, there is plenty of dithering that can be seen by the naked eye with no composite to perform its magic or sorcery to blend it into a new color.  It's simply part of the artwork.  That's not a bad thing.  Same goes with ancient systems that time has long forgotten like the TurboGrafx-16.

[ccovell]

While Mega Drive, SNES, etc offered RGB natively, the PC Engine didn't. So I wouldn't consider it an RGB era console (whatever that means). Composite is 50's standard, by the way.

In arguments such as these, you have to choose your words carefully.  Of course, the PCE outputs RGB "natively".  Everything you would want is available out the back.  NEC just didn't sell any RGB cables for their system.  One (but not me...) could argue that the SMS and MD were in the same situation: they both output RGB but Sega (of Japan) didn't release RGB cables for them, AFAIK.  Fortunately, Micomsoft stepped in and sold RGB cables and/or S-Video conversion boxes.

[GUTS]

This kind of reminds me of playing old Gameboy games. In my house, I have a variety of Gameboy systems: Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, and GBA SP. When I have enough batteries laying around (I really need to get an AC adapter), I love to play the old Gameboy games on the original Gameboy, with it's green screen glory. To me it just feels nicer to play these older games for what they were designed for and it brings out the best experience of Gameboy to me. Doesn't mean I don't like to play it on the Pocket or SP, but I can't help but loving these games on the original the most. So you play your games on your Gameboy and I'll play mine on mine Smile

Haha dude I thought I was the only one who did that!  There are some really, really sweet old gameboy games from the green & black days but they're just not as much fun colorized.  I have way more fun playing them on an old puke Gameboy.

[Keranu]

Also, I wanted to point out that dithering is not bad.  It can be used when the "magic" of composite isn't even in the equation, like DS games.  Look at this picture I took of "Phoenix Wright 2: Phoenix Touches the Judge Inappropriately":



As you can see, there is plenty of dithering that can be seen by the naked eye with no composite to perform its magic or sorcery to blend it into a new color.  It's simply part of the artwork.  That's not a bad thing.  Same goes with ancient systems that time has long forgotten like the TurboGrafx-16.

Actually I like to think of portable games using their own sort of "magic" for dithering and that's due to their smaller screen. When a dithered image is smaller, it's harder to make out the pixel and it once again creates that magical effect again. But you're right, dithering isn't a bad thing at all and can look nice sometimes without being blended - as long as it's not overdone. Some Genesis games really pushed dithering to look like more colorful than it actually was and this is one of those cases where you really don't want to be playing it with crystal clear picture on an emulator, in my opinion. So I'm not saying that playing PCE or Genesis games with light dithering in RGB or any format that defines the dithering more is a bad thing, I think it just looks a lil better when done in composite.

[Joe Redifer]

No, some Genesis games just had morons for art designers.  Eternal Champions, anyone?  I cannot stand the look of that game nor its CD sequel.  It is a dithered mess, and I have only ever played them in composite.  As you know, bad design is bad design.  And a lot of the US-made Genesis games fall into that category, I feel.

[Keranu]

But you wanna know how to make Eternal Champions look even worse? Play it in an emulator : .

[Joe Redifer]

Playing...  looks just as bad as I remember it, though a bit sharper.  Man even the sound is some of the worst ever to meet my ears.  Did they... dither the sound, too???

[Keranu]

Nah, I think they just decided to take a big shit on the game.

[Joe Redifer]

On it?  I was under the assumption that it was, in fact, the turd.

[Keranu]

Well I guess it beats Fat Man. If Eternal Champions is a turd then Fat Man is diarrhea. 

[esteban]

This is a rather long post, but hopefully it will clear things up .

In defense of RF/composite

I think it's funny how some people say RF/Composite/S-video is OK but not RGB.  Personally I'd put S-video closer to RGB than to Composite.  It is much cleaner, and you only get a little bit of color bleed (usually in the reds).  With my Saturn and SNES it can be pretty difficult to tell the difference between S-video and RGB unless you know exactly what to look for (the hearts in Castlevania IV no longer smear, etc).

Nintendo released a S-video cable for SNES, that is why S-video is included in my list of pre-32-bit consoles. It is the exception, as far as stock hardware goes on pre- 32-bit consoles...

1. How I Play
I guess I wasn't clear enough in my prior posts: I prefer to play consoles without any modifications; I play them as they were originally manufactured for the masses. I also use the standard controllers (occasionally I'll use additional first- or third- party controllers, but 99% of the time I use the standard pads). So, even though I think the Genesis 3-button controllers are less-than-mediocre, I still use them (and they have grown on me, I must admit, even if they remain my least favorite).  I'm not the biggest fan of the SMS controllers, either (due to the awkward d-pad) but I have bigger complaints with the older joysticks (Atari 7800) ...

I don't have an A/V switch box, so I only have 2-3 consoles hooked up to my TV at any given time. As a result, I actually use RF because it acts as a third input (I only have two composite inputs on my TV).

Now, I started using RF out of necessity years ago... and I never thought I'd keep using it... but I have! I should point out that I always have some sort of "oldie" console hooked up (i.e. Colecovision, Intellivision, Atari 2600/5200/7800) and sometimes I'll pull out other stuff... so I'm not that crazy.


2. Why I Play Like This
Believe it or not, I can afford to buy a fancier TV, and I can also afford to get my consoles modded if I chose to do so. I don't have tons of money budgeted for my hobbies, but I could have RGB if I wanted.

But I don't want RGB or component.

Joe thought that maybe this was due to nostalgia:

I think the key thing here is nostalgia.  You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present.  That's gotta be it.

I can tell you that my preferences have absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with approaching video games as living cultural artifacts. The cultural / historical context of video games (and computers) is fascinating to me. I enjoy reading old computer publications, I write goofy programs in BASIC for Apple ][ and C64 and countless other dorky things.

Basically, I approach video games as both a form of entertainment and as a field with a rich history that should be explored, experienced, even studied. I know I'm a dork, but I don't care.

I think video games are a legitimate art form (highly commercialized and often low-brow, but yes, an art), etc. etc.

Now, nostalgia can be defined various ways, but it boils down to a "longing for the past, often an idealized, unrealistic past."

I'm not motivated by nostalgia but by a desire to understand the history of creating, marketing, consuming and playing video games. 

And, being the dork that I am, I approach this like an archeologist or historian would: I want to experience consoles as the masses did. Hence no hardware modifications, standard controllers, old-skool televisions, etc.

But wait, there's more!


3. Cleanest video signal vs. Historical accuracy

Remember my "theory" of digital art? Here it is in a nutshell:

I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics.

We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with ...
My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.

I suppose I should elaborate with some examples. Basically, I am saying that various stock hardware (console + display) configurations = a medium. A "medium" simply refers to the "stuff" artistic work is made out of.

TG-16 / Duo / SMS / Genny / etc. + RF/Composite + standard TV = medium
SNES + RF/Composite/s-video + standardTV = medium
arcade / jamma / etc. + RGB + monitor = medium

(I'll refrain from listing computer configurations, but they are mediums as well... and some even supported RF!).

Now, often, we think about digital art in its purest form (i.e. what you'd see via RGB / component, or on the designer's computer workstation). This version of the art is often placed in highest esteem, since it is considered the purest, least adulterated form.

According to Joe & company, RGB / component best captures the essence of art. Accordingly, there is a strong desire to modify consoles and "unleash" the purity.

I am offering an alternative viewpoint, one that squarely challenges how we define the "purity" and "essence" of a video game.

I am suggesting that the "true" essence of a video game can be defined by how the manufacturers marketed it and the masses experienced it: with stock consoles, standard displays, etc. 

If stock consoles and displays are the medium, then video game aesthetics can be appreciated and judged accordingly:

I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics.

We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with ...
My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.

Technical "inferiority" is an important (dare I say crucial) aspect of video game aesthetics! It is beautiful, despite, or rather due to, the "flaws"! It is what the masses experienced -- and thus the "true" history and culture of video games.

RF/composite is the best way to capture the "true" history of aesthetics for SMS, NES, TG-16, Genny, etc.

So, I am not anti-RGB, nor am I simply ignorant of RGB.

Also, I don't think RF/composite is unequivocally better than RGB. Rather, I argue that RF/composite is *still* relevant today and always will be! (as far as certain consoles are concerned).


-------------
Joe, I think you and I are both purists, but we define the purity differently.

You strive to unleash the RGB purity (beauty) that has been trapped inside stock consoles. You want to experience art in its contemporary context: newer "stock" technology.

I, on the other hand, strive to appreciate the purity (beauty) of RF / composite. That is, to experience art in its original context.

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So do you folks understand where I'm coming from now? Or have I just made things more confusing? I should probably proof-read this, but I  finished my coffee and now I have to get some chores done .

EDIT:
* Arcade games are a different medium, with a different set of aesthetic standards.
* Keranu's example about playing original GB games on the original GB fits nicely into this discussion. I do the same thing as well (not just for the screen, but to hear the little speaker pumpin' out the tunes!)
* My apoligies to the folks in UK / Europe, but since NEC never officially marketed the PCE in your country, you are not representative of the Japanese / North American NTSC "masses." Your history is still very important and needs to be documented, especially the role played by the importers.
*