PC Engine AV mod

[ccovell]

Jeez, next thing you're going to be quoting Marshall MacLuhan.  O:)

[Joe Redifer]

Wasn't there a PAL TurboGrafx released in Europe?  Why yes, there was!

I still say it is nostalgia.  You want to experience the games as they were played back then by the majority.  That can be defined as nostalgia.  You want to give them that 1980-1990's context each time you play.  Me?  I just want the games to look as good as they are able to with the real systems.  It kicks much ass that I can play ancient systems in component video, which wasn't even around at the time.  I don't play games for their historical context, I play them to have fun.  And to paraphrase ccovell, I like my eyes to have a treat as well.  Same goes with the audio.  I like to listen in stereo even though the majority of people listened in mono.  You can't argue that mono is better than stereo.

Suffering with a 3 button Genesis pad just for the sake of playing with the original pad is... well...  you're special.

[FM-77]

I'm playing in mono sound. Mono rules, and the games were INTENDED to be played with mono speakers. It makes it harder to hear how poor the sound quality was.



   

[Spector]

Wasn't there a PAL TurboGrafx released in Europe?  Why yes, there was!

I still say it is nostalgia.  You want to experience the games as they were played back then by the majority.  That can be defined as nostalgia.  You want to give them that 1980-1990's context each time you play.  Me?  I just want the games to look as good as they are able to with the real systems.  It kicks much ass that I can play ancient systems in component video, which wasn't even around at the time.  I don't play games for their historical context, I play them to have fun.  And to paraphrase ccovell, I like my eyes to have a treat as well.  Same goes with the audio.  I like to listen in stereo even though the majority of people listened in mono.  You can't argue that mono is better than stereo.

The way you're arguing that tells me that I have to go for A/V, especially the bit about mono and stereo. You're coming from the "more is more" camp, the same people that believe CD's are always better for music than vinyl. It's a technician's stance, really, which is fair enough, but not mine.

[esteban]

Jeez, next thing you're going to be quoting Marshall MacLuhan.  O:)

Hahahaha. I know .


(OK, this is all in good fun, Joe . It's fun to read your responses.)

Wasn't there a PAL TurboGrafx released in Europe?  Why yes, there was!

Yes, a gray market PAL unit saw extremely limited release... and we don't even know what countries actually received them (Spain seems to be one of them). The PCE import scene was incredibly more robust than the PAL TurboGrafx. The very fact that we can't verify much of the history of the PAL TG speaks to its obscurity. I was the one who asked John Greiner (of Hudson) about the PAL TG-16 and he was kind enough to answer. To date, his account is the most definitive, and it consists of a short paragraph.

PAL TG is the least-representative NEC console.

I still say it is nostalgia.  You want to experience the games as they were played back then by the majority.  That can be defined as nostalgia.  You want to give them that 1980-1990's context each time you play.  Me?  I just want the games to look as good as they are able to with the real systems.  It kicks much ass that I can play ancient systems in component video, which wasn't even around at the time.  I don't play games for their historical context, I play them to have fun.

Somehow, you've forgotten that I said:

Basically, I approach video games as both a form of entertainment and as a field with a rich history that should be explored, experienced, even studied. I know I'm a dork, but I don't care.

I friggin' love playing games. I play games to have fun. I don't know where you got the mistaken idea that I don't enjoy playing games. You seem to think that "enjoying something" and "thinking about it" are mutually exlcusive. They are not. This may shock you, but when I read books, watch movies, or listen to music, I think about them. I'm interested in them. Zombie films or art films, grand literature or trashy novellas... I think about them, try to learn more about them. In fact, it's fun to compare / contrast "high-brow" and "low-brow" pop culture. I think the distinction is silly, but the differnt status and esteem that folks attribute to them is bewildering at times.

If you think about it, I doubt that you are passive consumer. You're here, on these boards. You've taken the time to share your insights and help others (i.e. writing articles at sega-16), etc. I don't see any difference between us.

I'm not writing a doctoral thesis. I'm just trying to connect the dots while I'm having fun!

As far as nostalgia is concerned: It strikes me that any interest in the past qualifies as "nostalgia" to you. Nostalgia is distinct from the pursuit of history.  Do you think scientists have "nostalgia" for the origins of the universe, simply because their object of study is, literally, in the past? Do you think all historians are motivated by "nostalgia"? A friend of mine is an sociologist, and, I must confess, she really is nostalgic for the Boy Scouts of yesteryear (actually, she studies gender relations in youth organizations, and how they change, over time).

Nostalgia is a derogatory term that is used profusely in our hobby, especially when older consoles, games, and genres are discussed. You insult me by saying I'm motiviated my nostalgia, because you are essentially saying that there is no merit to RF/composite (for the reasons I described). You are saying there is no merit to my curiousity or pursuits.

Other folks (not you, Joe) will add that most older games are not even playable anymore... that folks who still play them are blinded by nostalgia, and that if it were not for their nostalgia, they would realize that most older games no longer have any merit (by contemporary standards). Hey, you seem to employ the same logic in your attitude towards RF/composite!

Hogwash!

I can't change anyone's opinions on a game, but please don't insult me by saying that I'm the one deluded by nostalgia.

If anything, I would say that it is the folks today who are deluded into thinking that anything less than RGB will "hurt their eyes". Pretty soon you'll be telling me that you refuse to watch any tv show or movie that isn't HD, simply because the old standards look so bad on HDTV's.

But what about simply having fun and enjoying stuff? I bet you'll still watch your favorite films / tv shows, even if they aren't HD (yet!). You'll still play your favorite games, too, wouldn't you, if God decreed "though shalt have no RGB!"

I know I'd still listen to my favorite music, even if a speaker blew out.

And to paraphrase ccovell, I like my eyes to have a treat as well.  Same goes with the audio.  I like to listen in stereo even though the majority of people listened in mono.  You can't argue that mono is better than stereo.

Suffering with a 3 button Genesis pad just for the sake of playing with the original pad is... well...  you're special.

As far as visuals are concerned, I like RGB. But RF/composite is still a treat for me.

And I listen to stuff in stereo... if it is available in stereo. Weren't TG-16 and Genny the first to offer stereo in North America? Don't exaggerate things, I said I drew the line at modding consoles. 

And finally, the point is that I do appreciate the 3-button controller for the Genny, since I gave it a chance (I'm glad I did), but it will never be on my list of "top 5 controllers"! Plus, I'm entitled to gripe about it! You gripe about how crappy RF/composite is all the time!

(Joe, you know it's fun to enliven the boards with some drama! Especially because I'm supposed to be installing some molding -- big party tomorrow -- but I wanted to procrastinate . I have to do some painting as well, goddammit.)

[Black Tiger]

So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? 

Personally, I can't stand playing Intellivision with an awful dirty dark screen that warps and has lines running through it, because it affects the actual gameplay(even more so than those illegible passwords in composite).

Which is why I use the best all-in-one Radio Shack RF switches I can find with a modern composite/rca cable. Hopefully I can get a composite mod someday... I also don't use the Intellivision 2, because the pads don't play properly, even though they're official.

I also use Genesis 6 button pads to play SMS games when I can't find a fully functional SMS pad with the knob attachment. I don't think that playing games designed for a Sega Mark III pad with a SMS pad preserves anything that I'm losing by playing with a Genesis pad.

The original PC Engine was designed to be a cheap tiny next gen machine to compete with the Famicom. It was initially designed with flaws that betrayed it's potential, since it was never supposed to run games as beautiful as it wound up supporting years after it's originally estimated life span had passed.

Hardware developers make mistakes all the time, just like software developers. I don't think that installing a fan in a Duo to keep it from dying after a few years detracts from the games' authenticity. I'd rather play a working system than a dead system. Just as I'd rather play a TE/GT with loud sound than quiet sound.

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.

The hardware a company officially puts out doesn't determine a console's zone of realness for me, particularly since most full-life consoles have contradicting standards between their own hardware releases. Like the GBA, the original is nearly unplayable, even with a worm light. But the games have never looked better than on the new brighter GBA SP and DS Lite.

All I know is that for years, I wanted to play TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games that looked as vibant as the screenshots on game cases and in magazines, and it wasn't until I got an S-Video mod that I found that those games really did look like that all along.

I think that composite genuinely represents the graphics of most consoles well enough, but the Turbo/PCE is one of them that got a raw deal(proportionately between actual graphics and what comes out of the box).

Personally, I am deluded by nostalgia. And am loving every minute of it. 

I don't know why some people take that as an insult.

[Keranu]

So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? 

I know I would .

[Michael Helgeson]

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

The problem only affects certain Genesis 2 deck types. They used 3 different video chip types in the Mk-1631 decks and in the Mk-1451 deck the same chip used in the Genesis 3 and NeoGeo cd is used. The Mk-1451 composite out is better then the Mk-1631 but I don't use it. I use s-video from it as I modded it for s-video. I wont play a Genesis game in composite again ever if I can help it.

[ccovell]

So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? 

I know I would .

Same here.  Famiclones and NES-on-a-chip systems (like the NEX) are inferior to the real thing.  Their sound emulation is off, connectors incompatible with some games, and the composite output does not average out NTSC artifacts as the real NES/FC hardware does.

[Joe Redifer]

The way you're arguing that tells me that I have to go for A/V

No no no!  I'm saying that many of the reasons as to why he thinks RF looks better seem to be nostalgic reasons.  If RF is all you have or care about then RF is fine.  I played Genesis in composite from 1989 until 2006.  There were always things I hated about the video quality, such as the smearing and the rainbow bars, etc.  I had similar but different feelings for all of my other systems I played in composite as well.  For me, going to RGB was like finally being able to scratch that itch that has been bugging me forever.  I never thought I'd be able to get better than composite out of my Genesis and I figured getting a real RGB monitor wasn't going to happen.  Transcoding to component was a godsend for me.

Weren't TG-16 and Genny the first to offer stereo in North America? Don't exaggerate things, I said I drew the line at modding consoles.

Yes, the Genesis and the Turbo were the first US consoles to offer true stereo sound.  I don't think you can mod a console for stereo even if you wanted.  Sure, you can put two audio jacks on an SMS or an NES, but it's still mono.  I take my single line out on my NES, attach a Y-connector and then two audio lines so I am not stuck with it coming out of left-only or right-only when I play.  Playing SMS games on a Genesis hooked up to a stereo doesn't make the SMS games stereo.  Stereo means two discrete directional sound channels, so there really isn't much to argue about here.

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are differ

Very true, there are lengthy discussions about this over at Sega-16.com, and also the sound between various models as well.  Which one would be considered the "definitive" one?

All I know is that for years, I wanted to play TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games that looked as vibant as the screenshots on game cases and in magazines, and it wasn't until I got an S-Video mod that I found that those games really did look like that all along.

That's very true.  A lot of the screen shots of PC Engine and TurboGrafx games are in RGB or at the very least, something MUCH better than composite.  Granted there are exceptions (and EGMs in-house picture quality went down the tubes starting around their 8th or 9th issue), but a lot of those screens were so crisp and clear... oh man.  Now I can see those same screens on my TV.

And I agree, nostalgia kicks ass.  I never meant to insinuate it is a bad thing.

[Black Tiger]

I'm surprised I never thought to try this sooner.

I used an S-Video to Composite adaptor to capture screenshots of my RGB/S-Video mod outputted in composite.

http://superpcenginegrafx.com/video666.html

That's a pretty big freaking difference(scroll down to see the rollover pic). Even though in theory, the S-Video mod-to-composite signal could be degraded from the 2 cables and adaptor.

Turbo games do look amazing in composite, even compared to S-Video & RGB. But the default Turbo/PCE's composite output still drains half the color out of the image.

So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? 

I know I would .

Same here.  Famiclones and NES-on-a-chip systems (like the NEX) are inferior to the real thing.  Their sound emulation is off, connectors incompatible with some games, and the composite output does not average out NTSC artifacts as the real NES/FC hardware does.

I wasn't talking about a top loading NES or A/V Famicom. I was talking about the regular NES that makes up 99% of the North American market. The last 10 or so I bought only begin to play games once every 20 tries or 1 in every 20 or more carts work. Or like the best running one I have, it crashed halfway through Zelda and erased my save files.

An NES that only gives you a blinking screen is far inferior to the NEX.  They have no sound, connectors are incompatible with all games, and the composite does not output anything but a blinking/flashing screen. 

I think a better comparison would've been to ask if replacing the pins/modding an NES detracts from the whole experience. I'd rather play a modded NES that is reliable than an NES that is a strobe light/game save eraser combo.

[Tatsujin]

AV is such weak! since i moved out of my country, i'm forced to play on AV signal, since most of the TVs here dosen't support RGB but S-Video. but the way to grade up your AV signal to S-Video is hard and long. first i need a RGB mod and after that in serial a RGB to S-Video converter. both i don't have at the moment and would cost me lot of money if i want to get it

of course i can take some time, which i certainly don't have, and make all the mods by my own talented hands. but i'm just too lazy for that kind of shit nowadays :oops:

next time i go back to my country i will pick up my US DUO which is already RGB moded. then i only need a converter to S-Video, and all the games will rule again

[elnino]

I've never had a NEC system with a signal better than AV :oops:

[TR0N]

I've never had a NEC system with a signal better than AV :oops:

Me either i've stuck with composite up untile 06.

Last year i'd switch and picked up a crt tv that suports component and s-video.

I'm at the point now where i'm sick of composite wash out look.

Dunno i guess afther many years i wanted a "better picture" and being, able to see all the detail in the game a little more.

When your brought up on video games from the (arcades) it comes down to wanting the experince at home.

I see some here are happy with composite hey if that's there thing np then.

While ago i hook up my, NeoGeo CMVS through component and i'd like the look of it. Bright colors and being able to the "see the details better... in the animation was a treat to me.

Still it does come down to personal prefernce on what picture you like.

Right now my duo-r is still has composite but.. i will have it modded one day to have either s-video or rbg added.

[GUTS]

Well shit, you RGB guys have convinced me to give it a go after all.  My Saturn actually looks really good through S-video on my HDTV, is that a good indication that my Turbo and Genesis will look good too?  Or should I just pony up the $200 for a SDTV?