Author Topic: PC Engine AV mod  (Read 13058 times)

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #240 on: February 28, 2007, 01:06:34 PM »
Quote from: Buster D

If you're only comparing a 240p signal sent as-is to a 480i signal displayed as-is instead of back to 240p, then you aren't making a valid comparison. 

But I guess people would rather flame and swear at me than make the comparison for themselves.  Fair enough.


I seem angry/pissed/whatever only because you are being sooooo dense.  I am talking about 240p as 240p compared to 240p sent as 480i.  That's what I've been saying all along, but for some reason you don't seem to be able to comprehend this.  I am making a valid comparison because 240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p.  Like I said, I have no reason to convert 240p to 480i and back to 240p again when I can just leave it at 240p to begin with.  But again I imagine this does not fit your logic, and somehow I am talking nonsense.

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #241 on: February 28, 2007, 01:11:41 PM »
And what I've been saying all along is that 240p sent as 480i can be perfectly displayed back as 240p again.  You seem to think there's an inherent quality loss from this.  There isn't.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 01:17:12 PM by Buster D »

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #242 on: February 28, 2007, 01:21:09 PM »
Nope. Never said that.  I am saying that looking at the TV screen (the device commonly used to display video images) with a 240p signal displayed as 240p looks better than the same signal displayed as 480i.  I am also saying that I'd have to be a moron to take 240p, convert it to 480i only to convert it back to 240p again.  I could understand converting it to a 480p signal with fake scanlines so it looks like 240p on an HDTV, but the 240p-to-480i-to-240p is about as retarded as painting my black car white just so I can paint it black again right away.

That is the LAST time I will explain it to your closed mind.

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #243 on: February 28, 2007, 01:34:39 PM »
Sorry, you're the one who is mistaken.  60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines. When this 480i is converted back to 240p, all a computer monitor has to do is show each interlaced field of 240 lines in sequence instead of alternating them.  Nothing retarded about it.

If you're lucky enough to have RGB output on all your systems and have a display or converters than can accept the signal, then great.  But not everyone has this option or chooses to go to the trouble of setting it up.

If you have a technical explanation for why using DScaler would be a bad idea, I'd be perfectly willing to hear it.  But paint metaphors don't accurately explain the situation.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 03:44:57 PM by Buster D »

Bonknuts

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #244 on: February 28, 2007, 03:41:38 PM »
Quote
I could understand converting it to a 480p signal with fake scanlines so it looks like 240p on an HDTV, but the 240p-to-480i-to-240p is about as retarded as painting my black car white just so I can paint it black again right away.

 Yeah, the 240p signal on my HDTV looks like ass since it doesn't vertically interpolate or add simulated scanlines. The capture card I have (like most) interperts all signals at 480i regardless if they're 240p or not. But I just fix the problem in post.

 From the sound of it, it appears that the app Buster D is talking about just reorders the fields as frames in real time (with his computer outputting to the HDTV). Unless his capture card is one of those crappy MPEG(2) only versions (those suck such ass), there shouldn't be much generation loss (there is though - slight or otherwise from the capture card YUV to RGB conversion and what not).

 Too much trouble for me. I'd perfer a 240p to 480p signal converter (with filter options and simulation scanline gap). If I really want component PCE to my HDTV, then I'll just run mednafen through the component output (I have an 4:3 HDTV CRT 53" - so not black bars for me).

 Btw, the snes and genesis both have an interlaced mode. The snes mode is the half ass 263/262line switch ever other frame while the genesis has true 262.5line mode. The 263/262line mode doesn't work on my HD set, but I'm not supprised.

 I just run my classic systems on an SDTV for the most part.


-Rich



 



Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #245 on: February 28, 2007, 03:48:56 PM »
Quote
60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines.
Never said it wasn't.

Bonknuts, what SNES games have screens that are in interlace mode?  I've always wondered this but couldn't get an answer.  Obviously I want to try it for myself.

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #246 on: February 28, 2007, 03:55:55 PM »
Quote
60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines.
Never said it wasn't.

You said "240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p".  This is not true on a setup such as mine, as the video lines are exactly the same.  The only difference is in the color quality when comparing S-Video to RGB, which is negligible with a properly calibrated display.

Bonknuts

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #247 on: February 28, 2007, 04:05:16 PM »
 Joe,

 I'd have to look at the list (around here somewhere). I remember Chrono Trigger supposedly had one scene with mode 7 in interlaced mode (asteroid part I think). I did a test PC Engine demo that did the 263/262line interlaced mode and is didn't work on my HD set either (fine on SDTV set ofcourse).

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #248 on: February 28, 2007, 04:59:59 PM »
Quote from: Buster D
You said "240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p".  This is not true on a setup such as mine, as the video lines are exactly the same.  The only difference is in the color quality when comparing S-Video to RGB, which is negligible with a properly calibrated display.

You make my head hurt daily.

Bonknuts, try to find a game I can access without playing for hours like Chrono Trigger.  Also, send me an ISO of that PCE test if you have a CD version.  I'd love to see it.  :)

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #249 on: February 28, 2007, 06:13:51 PM »
I hate replying to myself, but I want to post these anyway.  It's from Midnight Resistance on the Genesis and the red text is an excellent example of different video signals.  I made sure that these images never went through any sort of compression from the lens to your eyeballs... though I hear Internet Explorer hates PNG files and treats them wrong.  But who uses IE anymore?

COMPOSITE:



S-VIDEO:



COMPONENT:



Sorry Keranu, no RF picture.  :(

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #250 on: February 28, 2007, 07:03:16 PM »
Actually the only thing that the Dreamcast shares with normal VGA is the res of 640x480,and the hardware was capable of producing a higher res,but that option was never used. The color depth far exceeds the old VGA standard,and the old VGA hardware standard was able to produce 704×528, 736×552, 768×576, and 800×600 at 16 colors.

When Super VGA was created the call was for 800x600 to be used more commonly. At the time they were not getting into 800x600 on VGA much,it was rarely done and at 16 colors, not very useful. However,SuperVGA can go back to 640x480. 640x480 on Dreamcast still uses SuperVGA color,along with the other aspects needed like the ability to double buffer at a color depth of 16-bit-32-bit. VGA high color depth is only 256 colors. I know,it must have slipped past you,but Power VR is a Super VGA hardware technology.


256 KiB ram was the limit for VGA. The most typically standard graphics modes used in VGA are 640x480 in 16 colors, 640x350 in 16 colors,  320x200 in 16 colors,320x200 in 256 colors (Mode 13h) with typical res modes used for games like 320x400 double res,320x240 square pixel, and 360x480. I remember ColoRIX allowing you to do higher res while using 256 colors,but it would eat up all the available 256 kib ram fast and was not usable with games really.

As for Dscaler,yea,I have seen it used,and I think its good software tool,but I think its laughable at best that you are running a bunch of old game systems into a computer via capture card,and are having to use a software program to try to get your image to resemble the original look that a good $150-200 dollar Tv is going to give you anyway for your old game systems,but its not. A better solution would be to just use a good tv. Also,the color depth for the Dreamcast is much better on a computer monitor then a standard tv. SDTV dumbs it down somewhat in S-video.

I don't really care what you meant either way,you really do not know what your talking about,that much is apparent with your looping double backing post,and you think your going to win your retarded arguments here with people who do know,by using your poor wikipedia reference material and the point you keep making about how leet you are cause your using your computer and Dscaler to TRY to do what a normal tv WILL do for you instead. No matter how many times you post your same stupid mis informed info Joe nor I are going to agree with you,nor about anyone else here I gather. Infact,we are all laughing at you right now,laughing at you,laughing at you,laughing at you,laughing at you......

Lesson for the children

« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 07:20:57 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #251 on: February 28, 2007, 07:06:54 PM »
Sorry Keranu, no RF picture.  :(


Thats cool,I included one for Keranu

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #252 on: February 28, 2007, 07:23:19 PM »
As for Dscaler,yea,I have seen it used,and I think its good software tool,but I think its laughable at best that you are running a bunch of old game systems
into a computer via capture card

Why, specifically? What technical reason is there other than the color quality difference?



Quote
,and are having to use a software program to try to get your image to resemble the original look that a good $150-200 dollar Tv is going to give you anyway for your old game systems,but its not. A better solution would be to just use a good tv.

I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron.  And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.

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the point you keep making about how leet you are cause your using your computer and Dscaler to TRY to do what a normal tv WILL do for you instead.

Are you saying that DScaler is not in fact taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying them as a 240p frame? 



Quote
Lesson for the children

Yeah, whatever.  Feel free to continue the flames, but if you have any technical evidence as to why DScaler sucks so bad for gaming, I'll be around.

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #253 on: February 28, 2007, 07:54:15 PM »
Quote

Are you saying that DScaler is not in fact taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying them as a 240p frame? 


That's right.  It's upscaling it to whatever resolution your monitor is set at.  Only really really old monitors can go down to a resolution of 240p.  What is that, a 15khz sync?  If I had a monitor that could do that, I'd just connect it with pure RGB straight from my consoles to rock my world.

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #254 on: February 28, 2007, 08:02:01 PM »
Yes, it's upscaling it, but not from 480i.  When in Old Game mode it takes the 240 lines from each 480i field to make a 240p image and THEN resizes it to my monitor.