Author Topic: PC Engine AV mod  (Read 13017 times)

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #255 on: February 28, 2007, 08:13:23 PM »
Joe,there is not any point in arguing with this guy. After hinting that where he is located at it must be impossible to locate a CRT SDTV or SCART TV in new or good condition,possibly because he lives with the moles in a dark hole,he just clearly stated he hates normal tvs,scanlines,ect ect..and the way the stuff is intended to look and run is on normal tvs.

He thinks his computer + Dscaler is Jesus and his word of it gospel. He honestly believes in everything he is saying,even if wrong,and you will never convince him to think otherwise. He is rich in stupidity on this subject,he already proved that much. Dscaler is not solely meant so you can stop using a normal tv,its to try to help clean up the process of using SDTV items on a capture card for your computer for when you need to use it. Its not the end all solution,nor a perfect replacement,nor able to 100 percent replicate the feel or look of a great quality SDTV in S-video or Component,or even composite really.

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What is that, a 15khz sync?

Yea,I do believe that is what old computer monitors that used typical anolog RGB signal use. C64/128,Atari ST,and old Amiga monitors,and some of the really old VGA monitors could be used if you made a special connector.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 08:23:47 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #256 on: February 28, 2007, 08:23:25 PM »
Joe,there is not any point in arguing with this guy. He just clearly stated he hates normal tvs,scanlines,ect ect..and the way the stuff is intended to look and run is on normal tvs. He thinks his computer + Dscaler is Jesus and his word of it gospel. He honestly believes in everything he is saying,even if wrong,and you will never convince him to think otherwise. He is rich in stupidity on this subject,he already proved that much.

 :roll: Yeah, I hate scanlines.  That's why I said the exact opposite in my previous post.

Look, I'd be perfectly willing to accept that my setup sucks if you showed me something that proves DScaler isn't doing what I say it's doing, but so far you haven't. 

I feel like I'm reading the GameFaqs boards here...

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #257 on: February 28, 2007, 08:25:43 PM »
I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron.  And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.

By saying you prefer to not have them there its evident they bother you deeply,that and your attitude about this subject makes it very apparent. They repulse you. Thats the only reason you would be compelled to run your old game systems into a computer and use software to attempt to fix the image so you can play on a VGA monitor. Hell your whole attitude about it all,including your willingness to continue your dumb error filled arguement about this subject shows you oozing with contempt for SDTV.

As for your method,what proof would you need???? All you have to do is run a system into a good tv side by side with the setup your using and Dscaler running your image and you could clearly tell that your choice is a poor method compared to just using a great normal SDTV.

Clearly if you carried this conversation to other older game system forums others would tell you this also, The mass is not going to agree with you. Your method is not as good,does not look as good,is bulky and not viable. As for flaming,I think we were all here before you,and your arguing with us,are you not?

« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 08:42:17 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #258 on: February 28, 2007, 08:30:21 PM »
I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron.  And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.

I'm willing to have them if it significantly increases the quality in other areas, but the small increase in color quality RGB cables provide isn't enough for me to get another setup.

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #259 on: February 28, 2007, 08:46:05 PM »
OK do this.  Take a picture or two of a game running on the TurboGrafx or Genesis (not a screen capture, do like I did with a digital camera).  It can be a game of your choice (except Sonic 2).  Take kind of a close-up picture like I did on the last page.  Post it/them here.  I won't compare it to my component setup, but I will compare it to S-video on an SDTV.

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #260 on: February 28, 2007, 08:53:43 PM »
I feel like I'm reading the GameFaqs boards here...

What happened,did you try to carry this argument over at Gamefaqs and they chased your dumbass away from there too??? Did you just think to yourself " Oh well, I bet over at PcEngineFX my arguement about my ultra leet method of running my MegaDrive on  my computer with Dscaler to my whopping huge 19 inch VGA monitor with its 17 inch viewable display will convince others I am awesome and leet,and that I know everything about everything because I read it on wikipedia,and because I know my Dreamcast run trough s-video trough Dscaler looks better then running my Dreamcast straight into my VGA monitor,cause I am SOOOOO leet it kills me and because my mommy luvs me special." ???   Well I guess you found different then huh???
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 08:58:06 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #261 on: February 28, 2007, 09:03:58 PM »
OK do this.  Take a picture or two of a game running on the TurboGrafx or Genesis (not a screen capture, do like I did with a digital camera).  It can be a game of your choice (except Sonic 2).  Take kind of a close-up picture like I did on the last page.  Post it/them here.  I won't compare it to my component setup, but I will compare it to S-video on an SDTV.

Most likely what will happen here is he will do this,compare and realize how ugly his is,then he will run out,get a SDTV,take a pic,then post that and claim its his computer method with Dscaler running.

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #262 on: February 28, 2007, 09:10:32 PM »

What happened,did you try to carry this argument over at Gamefaqs

Uh, no.  I tried reading the boards there once, but I got sick of the all the fanboy flamings well before I ever posted there.

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my computer with Dscaler to my whopping huge 19 inch VGA monitor

22 inch, actually.

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and because I know my Dreamcast run trough s-video trough Dscaler

Actually, I only do this for games that aren't compatible with the VGA box.

As for the rest of your post....  :roll:  How old are you, exactly?  Your opinion of DScaler seems to have no basis on its technical details, and your arguments against it consist of nothing but calling me names and making up stuff about me.  I by no means think DScaler is perfect, especially for deinterlacing DVDs.  But it will do until I get a standalone high-end upscaler.  If you have anything mature to say about it, I'm willing to listen.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 09:18:40 PM by Buster D »

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #263 on: February 28, 2007, 09:30:10 PM »
Look,I think we just said a side by side comparison would prove it,but you are not willing to do that I am sure. I have already seen it run,its not impressive,and it is not just as good as just using my tv,esp for games. I also fail to see why you would need to capture a DVD,clean up and deinterlace the image with Dscaler.  There are better methods. I take it your trying to remove ghosting or artifacts? Try using IVTC inside TMPG and see if it does what your wanting.

Besides the obvious image quality problems,the fact you have to use your computer,the fact you have to start it up and run Windows first,unlike just turning on a TV,is a problem in and of itself. Couple that with the limited viewing size of affordable VGA monitors. And when you say 22 inch I am to take it then your viewing area for your computer screen is 20-19 inch? Your method to play a old game system is alot more bulky,less convenient,and takes longer to get going,and produces a less desirable picture quality. Whats there to argue about???? You obviously are stupid.....
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 09:53:47 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #264 on: February 28, 2007, 09:50:33 PM »
Look,I think we just said a side by side comparison would prove it,but you are not willing to do that I am sure.

Considering I'd have to get an entirely new monitor that can support RGB or get both a new TV and a transcoder yeah, I don't quite feel like doing that just to see essentially the same image except with scanlines and on a display with a lower refresh rate (I run mine at 120Hz).

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I have already seen it run,its not impressive,

That doesn't tell me much.
On what kind of computer/monitor/capture card?  What were the monitor and DScaler settings?  It what ways was it not impressive?


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and it is not just as good as just using my tv,esp for games. I also fail to see why you would need to capture a DVD and clean up the image with Dscaler.

DScaler is not capture software.  It was designed to watch external devices in real time on a PC.  My "capture card" is also made for this specific use.  And since DVDs often contain a progressive image telecined to a 480i one, so you need some kind of deinterlacer to do this.  There are multiple ways of doing this on a computer, DScaler is but one of them.


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Besides the obvious image quality problems,

I'm not seeing any.  Have any specific examples?


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the fact you have to use your computer,the fact you have to start it up and run Windows first,unlike just turning on a TV,is a problem in and of itself.

Doesn't bother me as I'm often using it for other things.


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Couple that with the limited viewing size of affordable VGA monitors. And when you say 22 inch I am to take it then your viewing area for your computer screen is 20-19 inch?

20 or 21 I believe, but sitting in my normal chair, the screen fills a good bit of my field of vision.  Sometimes I have to scoot back, depending on what's being displayed.

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Your method to play a old game system is alot more bulky,less convenient,and takes longer to get going,

None of these things matter to me compared to the quality, which I am perfectly satisfied with for the time being.

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and produces a less desirable picture quality.

You'll have to be more specific if you want this point to have any value.

I'll maybe take some pics of the display later, got some other stuff to finish first.

Joe Redifer

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #265 on: February 28, 2007, 09:57:34 PM »
Stop talking and start taking pictures!  I don't think there is anything more that can be said without pictures (except an off-topic remark that DVDs can store progressive images without telecine).

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #266 on: February 28, 2007, 10:06:37 PM »
Stop talking and start taking pictures! 

Sorry, I'm at work right now.

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I don't think there is anything more that can be said without pictures (except an off-topic remark that DVDs can store progressive images without telecine).

They can, yes.  But many, many are only stored as interlaced, especially TV shows, even if they're shot on film.  DScaler and other deinterlacers can reconstruct the 24 film frames per second and display them as progressive video. This is a feature built into most DVD players nowadays, but the quality can vary.

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #267 on: February 28, 2007, 10:44:16 PM »
DScaler is not capture software.  It was designed to watch external devices in real time on a PC.  My "capture card" is also made for this specific use.  And since DVDs often contain a progressive image telecined to a 480i one, so you need some kind of deinterlacer to do this.  There are multiple ways of doing this on a computer, DScaler is but one of them.
Well I hate to point this out to you,but when you run a DVD player along with anything else into a capture card,your capturing the image onto your computer,given the name,capture card. Nor did I even state that Dscaler is capture software,although it is a assisting program used to clean and view the captured image your desiring to view. In other words you are then using Dscaler to clean the captured image up a bit to make it cleaner and more appealing to your eyes. As I said above as for deinterlacing DVDs,
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There are better methods. I take it your trying to remove ghosting or artifacts? Try using IVTC inside TMPG and see if it does what your wanting.

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I'll maybe take some pics of the display later, got some other stuff to finish first.

Thats what all the losers say....

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I don't quite feel like doing that just to see essentially the same image except with scanlines and on a display with a lower refresh rate (I run mine at 120Hz).
Since your highest goal is aimed at getting the worst possible image with your older game systems why not just use emulaters on your leet set up instead???

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Sorry, I'm at work right now.

If so,then why are you still on here arguing with us for hours on end.....

As far as computers specs goes,it doesn't much matter,as long as you are using a good high end Athlon XP,2800-3200+,preferably Athlon 64,have at least 1-2 gigs of ram, a good chipset based motherboard,like a Nforce 2-Nforce 3 250 if your using a AGP All in Wonder,and a good modern All in Wonder 9800-2006 Edition your system should be fine and able to prevent dropped frames of your system,and with Dscaler use a Wintv or ATI Tv Wonder.

No matter how well you optimize the settings on Dscaler,it will not be perfect,or as good looking on old game systems as a SDTV. To some extent you even admitted this,but you turn around and say you prefer your setup because you don't like scanlines and low refresh rates. Well,I am sorry but old game systems were built for SDTV image capability,not to be run into AIW Pros with Dscaler and displayed on Super VGA screens.

 I have already had plenty of discussions like this before,and about upscalers too when I chit chatted on laser disc forums. Basically what your trying to do is improve a image that cant be improved the way your thinking it can it sounds like. You may not admit to this,but it is essentially what your doing,and you are failing. And your also assuming because we don't use the "leet" method your using that we know nothing about it,but your wrong,because it ends up we know quite abit more then you.

Basically in the end you are just sitting there lying to yourself and willingly cheating yourself out of a better gaming image. In the end this is your choice,but no one here is going to agree with you about it,so maybe you should take your argument elsewhere,because you are all alone here.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 01:42:43 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Buster D

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #268 on: February 28, 2007, 11:10:22 PM »
In other words you are then using Dscaler to clean the captured image up a bit to make it cleaner and more appealing to your eyes.

I'm not using a filters to clean up the image. I'm just using DScaler to deinterlace (to 240p in the case of retro video games or 480p for DVDs, etc.).  All this does is restore the original progressive image.



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If so,then why are you still on here arguing with us for hours on end.....

I don't necessarily have to actually be working 100% of the time I'm at work.


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No matter how well you optimize the settings on Dscaler,it will not be perfect,or as good looking on old game systems as a SDTV.

This is your opinion, and you haven't said anything specific about how a video game looks poor using DScaler so I don't see why I should count your opinion as an informed one.

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To some extent you even admitted this,but you turn around and say you prefer your setup because you don't like scanlines and low refresh rates.

RGB is better than S-Video, but not by much.  As for scanlines, the only thing they do for me is to help hide the fact that I'm seeing a low-resolution video game on a big screen, which doesn't bother me in the first place. YMMV.

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Well,I am sorry but old game systems were built for SDTV image capability,not to be run into AIW Pros with Dscaler and displayed on Super VGA screens.

Many weren't built with RGB output or even S-Video or composite output, either.  Just like how Nintendo crippled the later releases of the Gamecube, I doubt if any of the makers thought the majority of gamers would be using their systems on anything but ghetto TVs.

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I have already had plenty of discussions like this before,and about upscalers too when I chit chatted on laser disc forums. Basically what your trying to do is improve a image that cant be improved the way your thinking it can it sounds like.

Again, be more precise.  How is DScaler not restoring a 240p image from the 480i output of a video game system?

Michael Helgeson

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Re: PC Engine AV mod
« Reply #269 on: February 28, 2007, 11:35:34 PM »
Many systems ehh...
Last I checked the Master system,Genesis,Nes,Pc Engine on up all either produced either composite,or RGB,and in the case of the Master System,Genesis/Megadrive,NeoGeo you can use the XMD 1 or 2 to obtain S-video off of the RGB.Snes produces S-Video and RGB. As for the Gamecube being crippled,they never took S-video away,just the Digital AV port. Are you completely retarded???

And after even stating in your own words that your setup using Dscaler is not perfect,how can your turn around and say its producing the exact same image as a old system on a SDTV at the same quality. When are you going to take pics. Give a time and do it,instead of blabbing more of your complete shite. See,its not up to the majority to prove you wrong,we already know you are,as about everything you have stated so far is from a technical standpoint,its up to you to prove the majority wrong,and you as of yet have made no valid attempt to do so.

Scanlines are a normal part of SDTV,and older game systems are all built around the idea of being displayed on a SDTV with a NTSC or Pal signal. IT IS THE WAY IT IS MEANT TO BE VIEWED. If they intended you to view 240P without scanlines they would have given you otherwise. This is just how it was back then. There is no way around it without making it actually look worse. And the method your using,its a reproduction of the real thing,and it is not as good looking,and you flat out know this,as you have even admitted here and there. And you have yet to post pics,and I am doubtful you will,because you know your setup is going to look ugly as hell on your Megadrive or whatever other old system your going to use..

As far as me saying anything specific as to why Dscaler not as good looking,well for one the color reproduction is off,and 2 the fact that your running it into a capture card,then displaying it on a VGA monitor which has a completely different and much higher pixel per line count is also another reason. No matter how much work you have Dscaler do,it will not look as good or even the exact same as my TV with my systems run in composite or S-video. Thats a simple fact you need to accept. And it def wont look better then our Tvs running older hardware.

Anyway,take your pics and post them,prove us wrong if you can.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 12:24:58 AM by Michael Helgeson »