Happy Birthday PC Engine!

[guyjin]

http://hudsonent.com/feature.php?feature_id=109

 

[nodtveidt]

Interesting article, but even more interesting that it would be on hudsonent and be so full of errors...

[Spector]

Was the PC Engine's sound chip really only "marginally better" than the NES' 3 channel mono? I think there is a bigger gap between the two than they suggest.

[Bonknuts]

 Yeah, it was a little more than marginally better. Each of the six channels had a PCM waveform sample instrument playback bank (basically waveform playback) among other things it can do (direct feed sampling on all channels (digitizes sound effects up to 48kHz and higher), white noise on channel 6, frequency modulation of channel 2)  instead of just a square or triangle tone like in the NES.

[Necromancer]

I'd have to agree that the sound chip was more than 'somewhat better' when compared to the Famicom, but to snerds it is complete junk that can never compare to the awesome power of the SPC700.  At least the article is correct regarding HuCards - they're sexy. 

[Tatsujin]

the 20 anniversary is set on 30th October 2007. everybody knows.

[Black Tiger]

I'd have to agree that the sound chip was more than 'somewhat better' when compared to the Famicom, but to snerds it is complete junk that can never compare to the awesome power of the SPC700.  At least the article is correct regarding HuCards - they're sexy. 

Technical specs and what can actually be done with something are two different things.

Technically, the Neo Geo, Genesis and Sega-CD have the same cpu. But Sega-CD games don't tend to blast process as well as the Neo Geo.

However much it may or may not defy the Turbo sound chip's similarity to the NES sound chip, some of the "iffiest"(on a technical level) Turbo chip music sounds comparable to some of the better NES music and good Turbo chip music rocks in its own unique way. 

Interesting article, but even more interesting that it would be on hudsonent and be so full of errors...

Actually, Hudson Entertainment's site is earning a reputation for ignorance of Hudson's history. 

[Necromancer]

   Huh, Black_Tiger - are we disagreeing somewhere?  I was agreeing with Bonknuts's assessment of the PC Engine's sound chip and added that a snerd likely wouldn't appreciate the difference since it wouldn't compare to Sony's chip.  I don't hear much similarity between the the PCE and a Famicom, other than they both sound like 'video games'.  Maybe I've had too much gin tonight and am not reading your post correctly; nah, there's no such thing as too much gin.   

sarcasm -->  Genesis / Sega-CD and NeoGeo processors have nothing in common.  One is 16-bit and the other is 24-bit.  <-- sarcasm 

Does anybody know how many NES games (as a rough percentage) used a cartridge based chip to improve sound?  I know that many games had chips built in for improvements, but I'm unsure what they were most commonly used for.

[ccovell]

The NES has 5 channels: two square-wave, one triangle-wave, one noise and one digital/Delta modulation channel.  The digital channel can play 6-bit digital waveforms either through direct DDA (same as the direct mode on the PCE), or delta modulation, which is done automatically through hardware DMA.

I'd say the PCE's sound is PSG like the NES, but is much more customizable.  A good musician that changes the waveforms often in one piece of music, and who uses the FM capability well, can make the PCE sound just fantastic and unique.  (Though I do happen to think that the WSG (wave sound generator) implemented in Konami's SCC cartridge on the MSX sounds a lot better than the PCE's.  I think it has more channels (and better bass, IMO) than the PCE hardware.)

Does anybody know how many NES games (as a rough percentage) used a cartridge based chip to improve sound?

Zero.

Unless you're counting Famicom games, where a few dozen (maybe??) games use an extra sound chip.  Add to that all the FDS games that make use of the extra sound channel, and the number increases.  It's still a small fraction of the total Famicom games, I reckon.

[nat]

Last night I was playing Air Zonk and thinking about this article.

There is no f*cking way the NES could produce anything remotely similar to the music in Air Zonk. To say one is only "marginally" better than the other is ridiculous.

It's all in how the composer chooses/is able to utilize the sound hardware at hand. There are some instances with (early) Turbo/PCE games where the composer(s) obviously had inadequate knowledge to utilize the Turbo's sound hardware to it's full potential. The result were tunes that sounded similar to what you might hear on an NES. But these were not indicative of what the hardware was capable of.

I think that properly composed "chip" music on our beloved system, music that takes advantage of the hardware's full potential, is not only far superior to anything the NES can offer (which is not to say I don't like NES music) but is better than anything I've heard on the Genesis as well. That last part may just be my opinion, but I don't think you can deny that good Turbo music sounds fuller and warmer than what the Genesis is capable of. That said, there are still some Genesis soundtracks I really enjoy.

I guess I just don't see how anyone could equate the Turbo's sound capabilities with those of the NES.

[Joe Redifer]

[The PC Engine's sound quality] is better than anything I've heard on the Genesis as well.

That is definitely opinion.  I agree that it can sound smoother with its nice humming-type of instruments, but then again so can the NES.  But as far as straight technical sound superiority, I'd have to say that the Genesis wins.  Based on sound quality alone (not musical composition), listen to the following examples on the Genesis which the PCE could not do as well:

-Streets of Rage 1 & 2
-Mega Turrican
-Midnight Resistance
-Gauntlet 4
-Panorama Cotton
-Global Gladiators (?)

And although the Genesis is known for its scratchy voices, it could do voices better than the PCE as well from all the examples I've heard.  I just think that more games for the Genesis used crappy samples than ones with good samples.  I'm sure the same is true for the PCE, but even the best PCE voices I've heard sound pretty scratchy.  I can post some good Genesis voice examples if you'd like (from real hardware, not an emulator).

If you have examples of PCE with technically superior sound quality to all of those titles above, please point me to it as I'd love to hear it.

[nat]

[The PC Engine's sound quality] is better than anything I've heard on the Genesis as well.

That is definitely opinion.

As I said. How'd I know I'd get a reply from you after that comment? Keep in mind, my exposure to Genesis games/music is far more limited compared to what I know of the Turbo/PCE. Hence the "I've heard" part.

I agree that it can sound smoother with its nice humming-type of instruments, but then again so can the NES.  But as far as straight technical sound superiority, I'd have to say that the Genesis wins.  Based on sound quality alone (not musical composition), listen to the following examples on the Genesis which the PCE could not do as well:

Thanks, I will... Never played any of those myself except maybe Streets of Rage years ago. Got any links to ripped OSTs?

I suppose my intent here was not to debate Turbo vs. Genesis sound technicalities, but rather point out that the PCE/Turbo was at least on par with it's contemporary, the Genesis. I don't think someone would describe the Genesis sound chip as "marginally" better than the NES, at least I know *I* wouldn't. We could debate who haz teh b3tt3r muzac, NEC or SEGA, all day but that's not the issue here and is largely a matter of opinion anyway.

The issue here is whomever wrote that article was either on crack at the time of writing that comment, or picked up a copy of "Wonderboy in Monsterland" an decided that was Hu6280 sound at it's finest.

[Digi.k]

It

That is definitely opinion.  I agree that it can sound smoother with its nice humming-type of instruments, but then again so can the NES.  But as far as straight technical sound superiority, I'd have to say that the Genesis wins.  Based on sound quality alone (not musical composition), listen to the following examples on the Genesis which the PCE could not do as well:

-Streets of Rage 1 & 2
-Mega Turrican
-Midnight Resistance
-Gauntlet 4
-Panorama Cotton
-Global Gladiators (?)

And although the Genesis is known for its scratchy voices, it could do voices better than the PCE as well from all the examples I've heard.  I just think that more games for the Genesis used crappy samples than ones with good samples.  I'm sure the same is true for the PCE, but even the best PCE voices I've heard sound pretty scratchy.  I can post some good Genesis voice examples if you'd like (from real hardware, not an emulator).

If you have examples of PCE with technically superior sound quality to all of those titles above, please point me to it as I'd love to hear it.

It would be interesting if those games mentioned above did appear on the pc engine too as you'll then be able to make a direct comparison..

I know from hearing the originals of some megadrive/genesis games sounded awesome but this don't mean that the pce's sound chip is no slouch either.


You could however make some direct comparisions with the following:

PCE: Devil Crash/crush     Genesis: Dragon's Fury
PCE: Tatsujin                 Genisis:Truxton
PCE: Street Fighter  II     Genesis: Super Street Fighter II
PCE: Kyuukyu Tiger         Genesis:Kyuukyu Tiger
PCE: Aero Blaster            Genesis:Aero Blaster
PCE: Populous                Genesis:Populous

Yes I'll agree some Genesis version's sound better than the pc engine but then there are some pc engine games that sound better than the genesis ones which I don't think is the fault of the hardware but more of the musician programmers.

[runinruder]

Yeah, Air Zonk is way out of the NES's league.  I also like to reference Psychosis' soundtrack for audio that is of a caliber beyond the NES's capabilities.  Heck, even "elderly" cards like Dungeon Explorer and Alien Crush have music that simply couldn't be replicated by the NES. 

Comparing the Turbo with the Genesis is a trickier situation.  The Genesis seemed to be capable of doing more with its tunes.  Take the track from Shinobi III's misty maze stage (I think it's called "Izayoi" in the sound test); I've never heard drum sounds like that from a TurboChip.  And while HuCards were definitely capable of delivering strong rock numbers, I've never heard anything as powerful as Lightening Force's riffs from them.  Heck, LF's explosive sound effects topped those in many strong Turbo CD shooters.  On the other hand, I cringe when I think of Air Zonk's sweet tunes being marred by scratchy Sega sound. 

But when it comes right down to it, I guess the best way to compare is simply to line up games that were released for both systems.  There will always be "experts" who claim the NES could do "this," the Turbo could do "that," and the Genesis could do "the other thing." 

[Joe Redifer]

I completely agree with Diji.K and his counter-comparisons are pretty much right on (meaning the Turbo version sounds better).  I'd say Street Fighter 2 is a draw unless you start counting voices (where the Genesis completely loses).  But I'd have to listen to them both again.

Nat, I'll be happy to post some MP3s and whatnot for ya.  I'll do it in this thread tonight.  Stay tuned...