Author Topic: Best Super Grafx Game !!!  (Read 3602 times)

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2007, 07:21:22 PM »
Covell is 100% right, it is NOT the same visual effect and that is fact which cannot be argued.  However I am not surprised that some Turbo/PCE fans argue against it.  They prefer the Turbo, so they HAVE to go with the "less is more" argument (like Keranu's "1 BG looks better than multi-BGs" statement).  If the Turbo only had a total palette of 32 colors with only 16 onscreen at any time, they'd probably argue that more colors look bad because it adds too much distracting detail to the visuals or something.

As for some of the parallax examples given, the Sega Master System and even the NES can do most of those!  Notice in that Parodius video as the big chick scrolls onto the screen, the multi-layers go away.  With the SuperGrafx, they wouldn't need to fade out and back in with a single BG.  The chicky would just scroll in on top.  I don't remember how the arcade did it, but it would be far more able to replicate the arcade on the SG.  Gate of Thunder, Lords o' Thunda and Dracula X are all very impressive... for the Turbo.  They probably get on Keranu's nerves, though.

Tatsujin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12311
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2007, 07:54:02 PM »

Quote
PS: the SuperGrafx's a sexy beast, second only to the original white PCE :mrgreen:



Hell ya it is !!! :D
unfortunatelly only very few people thinking that way :(
www.pcedaisakusen.net
the home of your individual PC Engine collection!!
PCE Games coundown: 690/737 (47 to go or 93.6% clear)
PCE Shmups countdown: 111/111 (all clear!!)
Sega does what Nintendon't, but only NEC does better than both together!^^

Keranu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9054
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2007, 08:00:45 PM »
They prefer the Turbo, so they HAVE to go with the "less is more" argument (like Keranu's "1 BG looks better than multi-BGs" statement).
I never said 1 BG looks better than multi-BGs, I said sometimes it can because I found some multi-BGs to look dull like the cloud level of TF4. Other times it can look gorgeous, like in parts of Shape Shifter or Ranger X. And why would I complain about SGX's parallax? All the games I've seen it with look fine, but it's such a small added feature to me that I wouldn't care if some games didn't even have the parallax. I hate it when people think if a game doesn't have parallax the graphics automatically suck. Art will always be the key importance of good graphics.

Quote from: Joe
Notice in that Parodius video as the big chick scrolls onto the screen, the multi-layers go away.  With the SuperGrafx, they wouldn't need to fade out and back in with a single BG.  The chicky would just scroll in on top.
That is such a minor detail though and hell I never even noticed that. For the most part, I don't think the typical gamer is going to give a crap either way for that scene.

Quote from: Joe
I don't remember how the arcade did it, but it would be far more able to replicate the arcade on the SG.  Gate of Thunder, Lords o' Thunda and Dracula X are all very impressive... for the Turbo.  They probably get on Keranu's nerves, though.
Gates did a fantastic job with multi-BG, especially level three. However I did find some multi-BGs in Lords and Dracula X to suffer the "blocky effect".
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Digi.k

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2262
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2007, 04:36:34 AM »

Nah, size has nothing to do with the style of scrolls in GOT,LOT,'zonk, and the video you posted. It has to do with working around limitations and tricking the gamer into thinking there are multiple scrolling BG layers. The keyword is limitation. Games designed around a systems limitations have an advantage of hiding it's limitations, than say a port from another system/arcade that does not have these limitations. Incase anyone's getting confused; I'm talking about multi layered BGs whether in parallax format or not.

 Parallax in that fashion (none overlaping layers) are very easy to do on the PCE.




That really was my point on the video in that the pc engine could demonstrate layered scrolling (and again like a few other people have mentioned so too could the NES and master system)!


If anyone else still thinks the pc engine can't do layered scrolling here's some more videos (magical chase) to show it can (maybe its using trickery to give the effect that it's layered scrolling but its there for the average gamer like me to see):




and you can watch Black Tiger complete the full game from this link:


ninja spirits Genpei toumaden 2 vid:






As for some of the parallax examples given, the Sega Master System and even the NES can do most of those!  Notice in that Parodius video as the big chick scrolls onto the screen, the multi-layers go away.  With the SuperGrafx, they wouldn't need to fade out and back in with a single BG.  The chicky would just scroll in on top.  I don't remember how the arcade did it, but it would be far more able to replicate the arcade on the SG.  Gate of Thunder, Lords o' Thunda and Dracula X are all very impressive... for the Turbo.  They probably get on Keranu's nerves, though.


Thats cause in the arcade parodius version of that same level the multi layers fade away too before the "big chick" scrolls onto the screen.  I just played it on mame to confirm it,  and relying on memory is a bad thing!!  I know!!

The point of that video was that the pc engine could show multi layered scrolling not whether it matched the arcade graphics for graphics.

screenshots of arcade parodius pink cloud stage:


anyway back to this topic... I don't know WHO said that the pc engine could match the supergrafx in terms of graphics but I thought the point was about those supergrafx games could have been done on the pc engine.. I dont' Think any pro-sayer's said pc engine would match it pixel for pixel its only the nay-sayer's that seem to point this bit out!

Even if Ghouls and Ghosts, Aldynes and granzort were ported onto the pc engine without layered scrolling and less graphical effects it STILL woulda been the same game!!


« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 07:46:12 AM by Digi.k »

peperocket

  • Guest
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2007, 04:46:43 AM »
Also - I need get off my ass and finish porting my SGX demos to CD for all you SGX+SCDROM2 owners out. Maybe I'll post them over the weekend. Also be nice to see Chris's SGX demo on CD  :wink:
PS: the SuperGrafx's a sexy beast, second only to the original white PCE :mrgreen:

Hey Rich,
I hope to see this demo soon because I really love my supergrafx baby !!

Necromancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21372
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2007, 06:01:29 AM »
The attitude of many on this board seems to be the exact reason that the SuperGrafx was abandoned.  Increased flicker and missing independent backgrounds (or at least faked and somewhat different looking backgrounds) do not make a game complete and utter crap, but this doesn't mean that it's the exact same game either.  I agree with Bonknuts and ccovell that the PCE could not reproduce exact copies of the SG games, but it could be close - yet close only counts with high explosives.  It's fair to say that the SG games are not terribly impressive when compared to some PCE games, but that shouldn't be a huge surprise - the SG isn't all that much more powerful than a PCE.

PS: the SuperGrafx's a sexy beast, second only to the original white PCE :mrgreen:

The SuperGrafx comes out on top if you include the Power Console flight stick thingy.  That sexy mofo can make anyone its bitch.
U.S. Collection: 98% complete    157/161 titles

Michael Helgeson

  • Guest
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2007, 07:03:08 AM »
Daimakaimura is my fav for the system. I think over time alot more could have been tapped out of the Supergrafx,esp in the arcade area and possibly in the cd game area. It using the same type cpu as the Pc-Engine is not a bad thing at all,and I was fine with the audio of the system from the few games released.8-bit HuC6280A really was fine at the time,I mean most arcade games back then were either using Zilogs or 68000 cpus anyway and relied heavily on the graphics hardware,pretty much like the Supergrafx.

Victory Road on Zilog based PSYCHO SOLDIER hardware ,P.O.W. and Robocop on normal 68000 based hardware with no frills,Trojan,Legendary Wings,Avengers running on Capcom Zilog based Section Z hardware,Pang and Super Pang/Buster Bros. on Zilog hardware,Vigilante on the Zilog based M75 hardware,I could go on and on. Really the SuperGrafx was very cutting edge for its time hardware wise,and almost matched the System 16 hardware capabilities other then in audio,which cd games could have resolved possibly.

Unlike Keranu I happen to like Lightening Force alot,esp its backgrounds,and I tend to love multilayer backgrounds and foregrounds. To me it just adds to the game,but everyone has their own taste. If the Supergrafx had survived,I would probably be collecting games for it and have one sitting right beside my NeoGeo,cause I have  a feeling it would have had a ton of 90-100 percent perfect arcade ports. The Pc-Engine already showed its graphics might with Rayxanber 2-3,Dracula X,the Neo Geo ports on Arcade Card,SF 2 Champ,Gradius 1,2,Salamander ect ect. Thinking how much more the Supergrafx was able to do makes you think how much of a waste it was to let it die off so soon.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 09:10:31 AM by Michael Helgeson »

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2007, 01:35:05 PM »
Quote from: Mike

Really the SuperGrafx was very cutting edge for its time hardware wise,and almost matched the System 16 hardware capabilities other then in audio,which cd games could have resolved possibly.


Let's not forget the SuperGrafx's lack of scaling.  It would also need about, oh, at least 32,000 or so more colors.  And probably more sprite power.  And speed.  Other than that it is exact.  :)

Michael Helgeson

  • Guest
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2007, 03:10:35 PM »
I think your thinking of the Outrun hardware,which didn't even use that many colors....
System 16 specs pretty much revolve around this:
Note only System 16B supports sprite zooming.
Main CPU : MC68000 @ 10 MHz
Sound CPU : Z80 @ 5 MHz
Sound chip : YM2151 @ 4 MHz +  ( NEC uPD7759 ADPCM decoder @ 640 kHz in System 16B)
Video resoution : 320 x 224 (vertical)
Colours : 4096
Board composition : Mother board + Rom board
Hardware Features : 128 Sprites on screen at one time, 2 tile layers, 1 text layer, 1 sprite layer with hardware sprite zooming, translucent shadows.

1 sprite layer with sprite zooming is not as intensive as alot of scaling found on other hardware. Thats why there is not a ton of it going on in System 16 games anyway as it is.

For reference here is the Outrun hardware specs:
Main CPU : 2 x MC68000 @ 12.5 MHz
Sound CPU : Z80 @ 4 MHz
Sound chip : YM2151 @ 4 MHz & SegaPCM @ 15.625 kHz
Video resoution : 320 x 224
Board composition : CPU board + Video board
Hardware Features : 128 Sprites on screen at one time, 2 tile layers, 1 text layer, 1 sprite layer with hardware sprite zooming, 1 road layer, can draw 2 roads at once, translucent shadows.

Games run on this hardware,Limited Edition Hang-On,Out Run,Super Hang-On,Turbo Out Run.


Granted some of this could be wrong,but this is what I am seeing on the net for the Supergrafx,and I am inclined to believe most if not all of it:

*CPU: 8-bit HuC6280A, a modified 65C02 running at 3.58 or 7.16 MHz (switchable by software). Features integrated bankswitching hardware (driving a 21-bit external address bus from a 6502-compatible 16-bit address bus), an integrated general-purpose I/O port, a timer, block transfer instructions, and dedicated move instructions for communicating with the HuC6270A VDC.
*GPU: A multiple graphics processor setup. One 16-bit HuC6260 Video Color Encoder (VCE), two 16-bit HuC6270A Video Display Controllers (VDCs), and one HuC6202 Video Priority Controller. The HuC6270A featured Port-based I/O similar to the TMS99xx VDP family.
Display
*Resolution
** Horizontal resolution: variable, maximum of 512 (programmable in increments of 8 pixels)
** Vertical resolution: variable, maximum of 242 (programmable in increments of 1 scanline)
** The majority of SuperGrafx games use 256×224.
*Color
** Depth: 9 bit
** Colors available: 512
** Colors onscreen: 482 (241 background, 241 sprite)
** Palettes: 32 (16 for background tiles, 16 for sprites)
** Colors per palette: 16
*Sprites
** Simultaneously displayable: 128
** Sizes: 16×16, 16×32, 32×16, 32×32, 32×64
** Palette: Each sprite can use up to 15 unique colors (one color must be reserved as transparent) via one of the 16 available sprite palettes.
** Layers: The dual HuC6270A VDCs are capable of displaying 2 sprite layers (1 each). Sprites could be placed either in front of or behind background tiles.
*Tiles
** Size: 8×8
** Palette: Each background tile can use up to 15 unique colors via one of the 16 available background palettes.
** Layers: The dual HuC6270A VDCs were capable of displaying 2 background layers (1 each).
Memory
*Work RAM: 32KB
*Video RAM: 128KB (64KB per HuC6270A VDC)
Audio capacity
* 6 PSG audio channels, programmable through the HuC6280A CPU.
* The addition of the CD-ROM peripheral adds CD-DA sound, and a single ADPCM channel to the existing sound capabilities of the SuperGrafx.

System 16 and Supergrafx can both display 128 sprites.System 16 has 1 sprite layer. Supergrafx has 2 sprite layers I take it? There are tricks and work arounds to get kinda near the same effect as sprite zooming found in System-16 hardware. Yes,System 16 can display more colors,but its not like you ever said the pc-Engine was colorless. Monster Lair was on both System 16 and Pc-Engine,and both look pretty much the same,and that is one of the most colorful games on System 16.

I always laugh when people think System 16 is mighty,when its actually pretty weak compared to alot of other hardware used on pcbs.Even the updates done to the hardware for System 18 were not up to snuff other then for the audio. What do you expect though,its hardware is built around what was needed in 1986 for high end usage.

A real system to contend with would be the MVS:
Main CPU: MC68000 @ 12MHz
Sound CPU: Z80 @ 4MHz
Sound hardware: YM2610 @ 8MHz
Sound Capability: Stereo up to 56KHz, 4 channels FM (4 operators + LFO) + 3 PSG + 1 noise + 7 4-bit ADPCM
Video hardware: 2 palette banks with 4096 (15-bit) colours each. Simple (4-bit) tile layer + 380 zoomable, linkable sprite-strips. Sprite-strips consist of upto 32 16x16 (4-bit) tiles each.
Resolution: 320x224.
Main RAM: 64KB
Sound RAM: 2KB
Video RAM: 128KB (only 68KB is used)
Main ROM: 128KB on-board (BIOS) + upto 8MB on cartridges
Sound ROM: 128KB on-board (only less then 32KB used) + upto 512KB on cartridges
Sprite ROM: up to 64MB
Tile ROM: 128KB on-board + 128KB on cartridges, later cartridges use a portion of sprite ROM that can be larger.
Sound ROM: up to 16MB
Backup RAM: 64KB
Clock/calender: NEC uPD4990a
Memory Cards: JEIDA 3.0 compliant.

Pretty much Segas best most powerful hardware 2D wise was from the Y-board and System 32 days.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 04:00:39 PM by Michael Helgeson »

Kitsunexus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3911
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2007, 03:41:19 PM »
I could have sworn that Outrun also ran on ANOTHER board, and it wasn't Mega-Tech. Guess I was wrong. And for the record, my favorite SuperScaler boards are:

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=698
http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=699
http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=710

Love the sound chips in those.

BTW, everyone of those soundchips labeled SegaPCM are actually made by Ricoh.

Tatsujin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12311
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2007, 03:48:07 PM »
some of best pieces of 2D hardware of all time. also in audio wise!!

loved AB Cop to no end in the arcades back in time. for me the definitive Chase.H.Q :mrgreen:
www.pcedaisakusen.net
the home of your individual PC Engine collection!!
PCE Games coundown: 690/737 (47 to go or 93.6% clear)
PCE Shmups countdown: 111/111 (all clear!!)
Sega does what Nintendon't, but only NEC does better than both together!^^

ccovell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2245
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2007, 04:03:46 PM »
Yes, I love [half of] the [uh... few] SGX games that I have.  It was a sexy beast, but just too little, too late.  The PC-Engine was designed to compete against the Famicom only, which it did well.  By the time 1988-1989 rolls around, NEC is up against the Mega Drive and Super Famicom, and they go into panic mode.  But rather than throw a little cash and time towards a great new system, NEC goes for this stopgap measure...  It is depressing.

Check out the reactions (scroll down a little bit) from game companies when the Super Famicom was demonstrated in 1988:
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/secrets11.html

And to depress you more, check out comments from some of the same companies when the SGX was demonstrated in 1989.
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/sgxreactions.html

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2007, 07:10:57 PM »
Ah, I thought the System 16 was the "super scaler".  Too bad the Neo Geo didn't/couldn't do anything like that, but instead just had wave after wave of fighters with only a few dozen or so non-fighters (it seemed).  Lame.

elnino

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2007, 09:20:52 PM »
What a question, it's Daimakaimura with its hilarious Princess Purin Purin of course!!
www.pcedaisakusen.net
People said his brain was infected by devils!
PCE Shmupscountown: 109/110 (1to go)
PCエンジン - シューティングゲーム読み秒:109/110個 (1個余る)

Tatsujin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12311
Re: Best Super Grafx Game !!!
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2007, 12:38:18 AM »
Quote
Hudson Since this is a big brother to the PC-Engine, it gives software houses a good chance to try. Development pays the maximum reward.


rolf

Quote
Hudson The Shuttle is perfect for the user who doesn't want to try CD-ROM. We want to make some software for these new users.

roffel rolf
www.pcedaisakusen.net
the home of your individual PC Engine collection!!
PCE Games coundown: 690/737 (47 to go or 93.6% clear)
PCE Shmups countdown: 111/111 (all clear!!)
Sega does what Nintendon't, but only NEC does better than both together!^^