RGB Mod for a PcEngine Duo-r

[Keranu]

The Neo Geo had some pretty frickin' amazing looking games on it, especially later in it's life. Personally I do find Neo Geo games to look nicer than exclusive 2D Saturn games, though it's unfair for me to say that since I haven't been able to explore all of the Saturn's 2D games. I won't deny that 2D Saturn games look awesome and that it can't handle Neo Geo, but I do think the Neo Geo had some amazing looking 2D games. I don't care if Neo Geo games didn't use rotation or transparencies because that's not what made the games look nice, rather it was the extremely well polished hand graphic work that most of the games had.

Joe I would appreciate it if you could give me a list of some of the finest looking 2D Saturn games so I can check them out! God I really need a working Saturn! It sucks having this nice boxed Saturn sitting next to me with it not having the power to load games!

[SNKNostalgia]

The Saturn only had the 2D cababilities of the Neo Geo as far as RAM goes with the expansion RAM carts. They only did use 1MB for the SNK games and some of the later ones like KOF 97 still had missing animations. Now, there was a lot more color usage with the Sega Saturn much like the PS1. If you look at a lot of games for both of those systems, it seems like the higher res 2D they tried to do would end up with missing details due to lack of RAM. It is funny though that the only games that used the expansion RAM were Neo Geo ports and Capcom ports. The Saturn without the RAM expansions has 50% more 2D power than the PS1 though. Imagine if there wasn't a RAM cart for the Saturn, they would end up slightly better than the PS1 versions of the ports. Also, another factor is sound qualitly. Ever noticed how the voice and sound effects had less sound quality than the Neo Geo versions of the ports? That was the lack RAM in the sound compared to the Neo Geo even the Neo Geo CD.

It is a matter of what it is you want to do with the system. The Neo Geo did have rotation/scaling effects, but they never really used them that much since they didn't need to with sidescrollers and 1on1 fighters. I will admit that games like Guardian Heroes for the Saturn has amazing 2D usage but even I see some flaws in the lack of detail in the BG. It does have good color usage and the scaling/rotation effects were really a good touch to the game. Still, you can see where the lack RAM takes place.

I think that SNK pushed the Neo Geo as far as it could go in terms of color, detail, animation (sprite usage at 380). There were a few games that used scaling such as Last Blade, Samurai Shodown and Art of Fighting series. Check out games like Blazing Star, freaking amazing frame usage that any 32 bit CD console could never ever attempt to do. The Neo Geo didn't have 16.7 million colors and a 32 bit processor, but it did what it could do with what it had. The same goes for the Saturn (although I wished they used the RAM cart on more games) and the PS1. I like all the systems, and they all have their different ways of doing things.

[Joe Redifer]

You're comparing the fact that the Saturn is a CD system and the Neo Geo a cartridge based system.  Sure, the NG-CD had tons of RAM, but levels often took 2 to 4 days to load.  The NG-CD wasn't meant for the mainstream audience (neither was the Neo Geo itself).  The Saturn was, and they knew that having load times lasting 2 to 4 days per level would be instant suicide.  I agree, though, that the 4 MB RAM cart should have been used more often.

Here's the thing, though.  Let's pretend both the Saturn and the Neo Geo are both cartridge systems.  In a way, they are.  What if Saturn games came on 100+ megaBIT cartridges?  Now the media odds are even, and the Saturn blows away the Neo Geo with more colors, far, far better scaling and also the ability to do rotation (the Neo Geo could not do this).  It could do transparency if needed and had way more sprite power and speed.  Saturn wins.

Check out games like Blazing Star, freaking amazing frame usage that any 32 bit CD console could never ever attempt to do.

This sentence does not make any sense to me.  Could you please explain?  What do you mean by amazing "frame usage"?  Whatever it did, I'm sure the Saturn could do it.  Probably even the Genesis as well, though with a ton less color.  Note:  The Sega CD even had more capability than the NG's scaling.  The NG could scale in and out at a higher frame rate, but the Sega CD could also rotate and do perspective.  The Neo Geo could simply not do a game like Batman Returns or Soul Star. 

I think that SNK pushed the Neo Geo as far as it could go in terms of color, detail, animation (sprite usage at 380).

I've seen the Neo Geo flicker (in Blazing Star or one of those games).  Since the Neo Geo uses ONLY sprites and no backgrounds, some of the screen would disappear during heavy explosions, etc.  However I still think the Neo Geo was capable of far more.  There was no real competition between developers on the console, so they didn't have to try very hard other than to get the highest megaBIT count.  They could have pushed that console to do crazy amazing things.  Sure, some of the artwork is great, but that's the artist's skill, not the console's.

Joe I would appreciate it if you could give me a list of some of the finest looking 2D Saturn games so I can check them out!

OK.  First of all keep in mind that these are based on graphics alone and you may or may not like the gameplay (which has nothing to do with system capabilities).  For good 2D, check out:

Astal - Just about everything in this game is amazing 2D.
Darius Gaiden - Pretty much the only Darius game worth playing.
Galactic Attack - A great overhead shooter, and another Taito game that's actually worth playing.
Magic Knight Rayearth - Cool RPG with lots of detail and color.
MegaMan X4 - The Neo Geo could probably pull this off.
Night Warriors - Better than Darkstalkers, doesn't need a RAM cart.
Shinobi Legions - Gets a bad rap, but it is hilariously cheesy (you'd love it), plays great and has awesome 2D.
Street Fighter Alpha 2 - Pretty sweet!

Japanese only:
Battle Garegga - Great overhead shooter with lots of crap on the screen.
Cotton 2 - If you thought the Turbo version was too hard, well then this game is for you because it is easy!
Detana Twinbee Yahho-! Deluxe Pack - Yeah.  Lots of color and cool stuff.
Gale Racer - This is a "3D" racing game, but every single thing here is sprites, not polygons.
Jikkyou Osyaberi Parodius - My favorite Parodius by far.
Keio Yugekitai - Not the most impressive effort on the console, but certainly not bad!
Princess Crown - This game is supposed to be rare, but it seems common.  I paid $0 for mine brand new!
Sengoku Blade - Side scrolling shooter with a billion bullets and many layers of scrolling.  Easy.
Silhouette Mirage - Crappy game with many impressive 2D effects.
Soukyugurentai - Great overhead shooter.  Anything by EA has to be good!
Street Fighter Zero 3 - Requires the 4MB RAM cart.  Weird artwork but great 2D.
Vampire Savior - Requires the 4MB RAM cart.  Not as fun as Night Warriors, but really close.
X-Men vs Street Fighter - Requires the 4MB RAM cart.  Huge characters jumping all over the place in multiple levels (smash down to the sewers, etc).  No flicker or slow down.  Great game god damn it!  Probably one of my favorite fighters ever.

I didn't list Guardian Heroes because #1 the graphics are horribly blocky and #2 I haven't played it in forever.

[SNKNostalgia]

What I said for Blazing Star with the frame usage, it is that most of the background graphics in some stages have FMV like frames. This is of course without MPEG usage of any sort. Also, look at the intro of the game. It is pretty amazing without having to use MPEG. This is why the Neo Geo CD couldn't do a port, even 7MB wasn't enough to do all this. It would have had to load maybe 2-3 times  or couldn't do it period in Stage 2 for example (Stage with constuction looking bars in the BG). Also, the flickering with explosions was on older games. I just got done playing Blazing Star, Pulstar, even Last Resort and I had no flickering problems with explosions.

Ahh yes, what if the saturn was cart, what if the saturn had a lot more RAM? It just didn't. That was a difference where the Neo Geo had some advantages over the Saturn, but also the Saturn had advantages over the Neo Geo due to its own capabilities. Heres the thing: When the Saturn tries to do a Neo Geo game it isn't up to the same level. Now, with a 4 Meg RAM cart it would be the same almost (minus sound qaulity and possible speed issues due to external RAM). They are just different. It is a matter of preference of games. Transparencies, scaling are just a matter of effects added to enhance games. Just like the SNES Mode 7 effects. The Neo Geo was built in 1990. The SNES was a year later.

It still gave the Saturn a fight with 1 on 1 fighters definately. That was just what type of games the Neo Geo did. The CPS2 system basically had the same capabilites as the Neo Geo. The Neo Geo had better detail in the games and the color specs at 4096 are exactly the same, but they used it more. Also, the CPS2 ran 25% faster with the same processor type (Motorola 68000) and a Z-80 for sound on both as well. The CPS2 didn't really utilize its full potential until games like Marvel vs Capcom. So we will never know if the Saturn could handle that game completely unless we get some hardcore tech guys to tell.

Yes, here are some flaws of the Neo Geo compared to the Saturn with half the mhz minus 1mhz of processing speed and only 320x240 res instead of 640x480 support. Yes, the Saturn has virtually unlimited sprites. If the Saturn used the 4 Meg RAM cart to its full potential, then it would have been able to do more of what the Neo Geo did. Maybe even Blazing Star, but they never did this. There still would have been half the sample quality in the voice and sound effects. Now, there are definitely many games the Neo Geo could have not done that the Saturn did as well.

So this is why I think (in my preference of games), that the Neo Geo is the best 2D system. I just like old school high end 2D. This is why I like mostly 16 bit 2D consoles. The Saturn still was marketed as a 3D system overall. So to begin with when I meant Neo Geo being the best 2D system, I meant it in a sense of 2D only.

[Keranu]

Joe you keep mentioning all of these hardware specs and features, especially rotation. I think me and SNKNostalgia both made it clear that we don't think Neo Geo games look good so much because of the hardware, but from the art itself. Technical effects are cool and all, but in my opinion it's the art that really sells the graphical package.

Astal - Just about everything in this game is amazing 2D.
Darius Gaiden - Pretty much the only Darius game worth playing.
Galactic Attack - A great overhead shooter, and another Taito game that's actually worth playing.
Magic Knight Rayearth - Cool RPG with lots of detail and color.
MegaMan X4 - The Neo Geo could probably pull this off.
Night Warriors - Better than Darkstalkers, doesn't need a RAM cart.
Shinobi Legions - Gets a bad rap, but it is hilariously cheesy (you'd love it), plays great and has awesome 2D.
Street Fighter Alpha 2 - Pretty sweet!

Haha, I've played nearly every one of these games actually. I don't think I've played Galactic Attack, Megaman X4, or Magic Knight Rayearth, but I very well may be wrong since I've played a bunch of pirated Saturn games once. Astal looks amazing, especially considering it was one of the earliest games for the system and is definitely a really good game that shows 2D in an artistic way. And yes, Shinobi Legions is a frickin' sweet game! I hate how people assume a game automatically sucks if it uses real people as characters.

Japanese only:
Battle Garegga - Great overhead shooter with lots of crap on the screen.
Cotton 2 - If you thought the Turbo version was too hard, well then this game is for you because it is easy!
Detana Twinbee Yahho-! Deluxe Pack - Yeah.  Lots of color and cool stuff.
Gale Racer - This is a "3D" racing game, but every single thing here is sprites, not polygons.
Jikkyou Osyaberi Parodius - My favorite Parodius by far.
Keio Yugekitai - Not the most impressive effort on the console, but certainly not bad!
Princess Crown - This game is supposed to be rare, but it seems common.  I paid $0 for mine brand new!
Sengoku Blade - Side scrolling shooter with a billion bullets and many layers of scrolling.  Easy.
Silhouette Mirage - Crappy game with many impressive 2D effects.
Soukyugurentai - Great overhead shooter.  Anything by EA has to be good!
Street Fighter Zero 3 - Requires the 4MB RAM cart.  Weird artwork but great 2D.
Vampire Savior - Requires the 4MB RAM cart.  Not as fun as Night Warriors, but really close.
X-Men vs Street Fighter - Requires the 4MB RAM cart.  Huge characters jumping all over the place in multiple levels (smash down to the sewers, etc).  No flicker or slow down.  Great game god damn it!  Probably one of my favorite fighters ever.

I've played a few of these games, including all the CPS2 games (I was hoping you wouldn't include these since they aren't exclusives and I don't think they're anything the Neo Geo couldn't handle). I've played a little bit of Cotton 2 and it had some swell graphics!

X-Men vs Street Fighter and Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter are my favorite of the Marvel vs Capcom series. They're fun to mess around with, but I don't take them as seriously as I do for other fighting games (I guess because they're not supposed to be!). I think the games after these two just started to get less fun by making them crazier. X-Men Children of the Atom was ok, but I didn't like the characters so much and it felt too slow for a game that's supposed to be hyper.

[Joe Redifer]

Keranu, I am talking specifically about raw system capabilities, which makes your "I like the artwork the best" point completely invalid.  But just know that people who like less-capable systems usually say things like that.  They HAVE to.

The Neo Geo games on the Saturn are shitty emulations (yes, emulations) done by SNK themselves, not made for the ground up on the system by someone who really knew the hardware.  Also, the Saturn has much more RAM than the Neo Geo in all areas.  It's just that the Neo Geo can load anything it needs instantaneously from the cart... and that includes sound.  The Saturn had cartridge capability and could even run games from it had the developers chosen to do so.  If they had and the size of the carts were similar to the Neo Geo, there would have been no issues with compressed sound effects that were in some of the fighting games.  The Saturn's sound hardware is FAR better than the Neo Geo's, even when you don't count redbook audio from the CD.  The 3 games you mention, Blazing Star Pulstar and Last Resort... it was one of them where I saw an explosion cause flicker.  I never saw it in an old game because old games didn't put much on screen.  What you speak of with "frame usage" has been done on many systems without FMV.  The background of whatever level that is with the scrolling frames is probably only 6 to 10 different frames, all repeated over and over again.  Sonic 3D Blast for the Genesis has full-screen FMV built into the cartridge.  Updating the frames of the background wasn't a new trick... the entire game of Golden Axe for the SMS was played like that (the game had no sprites at all) and the same with SMS Space Harrier.  The only exception is that the Neo Geo does not have a graphical background and must use sprites.

SNKNostalgia, you don't know your hardware very well.  You say the Neo Geo has a resolution of 320x240.  It does not, it's 304x224 (less than the Genesis).  You say the Neo Geo had scaling and rotation features.  Nope... just scaling.  You also say that the Neo Geo didn't use scaling very much.  In fact there are very few NG games I have seen which don't use it in some way.

Play just about any game I mentioned in my list above except for the fighting games as Keranu mentioned.  As you are playing them, ask yourself if you've seen the Neo Geo do anything like it.  Then ask yourself if you think the Neo Geo could do it.  The answer will be "f*ck noooo!!!"  You can't walk behind waterfalls in the Neo Geo unless is is ugly mesh like the Genesis.  You can walk behind them on the Saturn because it uses transparencies.  Which artwork is better?  I'll take the transparencies, I don't care what Keranu says (though he'll likely come up with an argument on why mesh looks better).  Sorry Keranu, mesh looks worse even over RF.  Anyway, this is about system capabilities, not what looks best through Keranu's RF connection on his 1978 Zenith TV.  Also the Neo Geo couldn't do the segmented bosses of Cotton 2 as well because it didn't have rotation and couldn't move the limbs as smoothly.  The Neo Geo version of the same boss would be noticeably more choppy and would require more memory to do the same thing since it would need a sprite for each position of the segment's location/rotation.

[nat]

I think he actually told me once his Zenith was one of the higher-tech 1980 models.

[SNKNostalgia]

OK, now your finding minimal flaws like 304x224 instead of 320x240. You know what I mean man, jeeezz. Slow down. BTW it can do 320x240 with 8px borders on each side. Also, the Neo Geo has 3 planes of graphics, so this thing with the sprites instead of it being BG is not making sense to me here. The system can do as much paralaxing as it needs and a lot of detail with no moving graphics.

Rotation, you got me. It doesn't mean the Neo Geo couldn't do it with the CPU speed and the fact that it was fast enough to almost run without work ram due to its multi-chip set to handle fast access to the carts RAM. Also, it uses a tile sprite system, so there you go. Can it actually do the rotation effects in the way it has be done? No, but it could pull it off easily. Ask some tech guys on the Neo Geo forums or guys that actually mess with deleloper kits.

Read again on Blazing Star, the Saturn would have had to do ridicously often loading to get through one stage like that. Trust me there is more BIG frames throughout the stage, it takes a lot of memory to do that. Yep it is cartridge that is one of the advantages of that use.

As for the scaling effects, it does it primarly in games like Riding Hereo, Neo Drift, AOF 1-3, both Last Blade games, Double Dragon, Samurai Shodown 1 up to 5. I am not speaking of minor scaling effects you see in Ninja Commando and the guys flying at you when blown up on Metal Slug. This is funny, did you know the Neo Geo uses a fake scaling effect with its fast Ram access and tile sprite usage? It isn't actually in the chip set. Now I will admit, if it did rotation then it wouldn't be 100% smooth, but it will stil be as good as the scaling. I know what your likely going to say on this; "But it doesn't have it then". OK fine.

SNK has been known to do really good ports on the 32 bit consoles. Look at the SNK games for the PS1. When you look at the specs of the PS1 and compare it to the Neo Geo, they did what is pretty much possible. SNK wanted to get their games as close to the Neo Geo as they could. They wanted to make more money since more people owned these systems. The same goes for the Saturn, yet it did it better than the ps1. It wasn't 2x better but roughly half way there.

Yes the Saturn has better sound chip capabilities, but not enough memory to have all the PCM voice effects of like 8 moves, 3 win poses, announcer voice, and sound effects in a high sample rate. This is just the way it is. Neo Geo CD has perfect sound effects to the cart as well. This is sound, so different subject. Some Neo CD games do suffer from missing frames and the missing taunts plus win poses on Last Blade 2 since it only had 7MB.

The Saturn didn't have the power to actually emulate the Neo Geo, it was reprogrammed for the Saturn's code. In a sense, it is done from scratch. Games like, Lunar or Resident Evil wasn't emulated between the PS1 and the Saturn. They are ports. What is being done on the PS2 for some SNK classics is actual emulation and some are not like KOF 2000-2003.

So, this brings me to what I have been trying to say over and over again. The Saturn has way more colors and a faster CPU, but it is held back due to the lack of RAM accessable at one time. There is the ups and downs of both systems. Now if you want to get into discussion with the RAM cart versus the Neo Geo being cart already, there is no point. The Neo Geo would still win due to it always being capable of accessing all memory at any time all the way up to 800mb which is 100MB. Sure, Sega could of made a real high Meg RAM cart or something, but that would have not been practical in the market at all. Plus the speed of the RAM getting to the system due to the BUS speed isn't fast enough. KOF 99 actually used a speed enhancement chip in the chipware of the cart.

Lets just quit trying to say one system is just SIMPLY better than the other by this information. They are just different. You choose Saturn, I choose Neo Geo. They both have their different aproaches to 2D. Yes Neo Geo games cost a lot and arn't for the common game consumers. Look at it this way, remember when these games came out? They were several times better than most things the SNES could do and even more times than the Genesis.

I had enough of this back and forth stuff, this will obviously last till eternity since we are both going to beleive what we beleive. We both have facts and facts overlooked.

[Keranu]

Keranu, I am talking specifically about raw system capabilities, which makes your "I like the artwork the best" point completely invalid.  But just know that people who like less-capable systems usually say things like that.  They HAVE to.

Yes but when people say that Neo Geo or SNK is the king of 2D, they don't mean it in a technical standpoint but purely artistic. I won't deny the Saturn being a more powerful system, but the "king of 2D crown" still belongs to the Neo Geo in my opinion.

Play just about any game I mentioned in my list above except for the fighting games as Keranu mentioned.  As you are playing them, ask yourself if you've seen the Neo Geo do anything like it.  Then ask yourself if you think the Neo Geo could do it.  The answer will be "f*ck noooo!!!"  You can't walk behind waterfalls in the Neo Geo unless is is ugly mesh like the Genesis.  You can walk behind them on the Saturn because it uses transparencies.  Which artwork is better?  I'll take the transparencies, I don't care what Keranu says (though he'll likely come up with an argument on why mesh looks better).  Sorry Keranu, mesh looks worse even over RF.  Anyway, this is about system capabilities, not what looks best through Keranu's RF connection on his 1978 Zenith TV.  Also the Neo Geo couldn't do the segmented bosses of Cotton 2 as well because it didn't have rotation and couldn't move the limbs as smoothly.  The Neo Geo version of the same boss would be noticeably more choppy and would require more memory to do the same thing since it would need a sprite for each position of the segment's location/rotation.

OK so if I made a game that featured like 1,000 single colored blocks all over the screen and featured transparency, rotation, and all that other technical stuff, would that mean it had good graphics? In a technical standpoint, sure, but what do you think the average Joe (lol) is going to think? Of course they're just gonna think it looks stupid. Like I said, you're missing the key point to why Neo Geo fans praise it's 2D and that's for the artwork.

And no of course I wouldn't use a 80's Zenith TV for Saturn or Neo Geo since those TVs are best for systems designed for it, such as the Atari 2600 . For a Neo Geo, I'd prefer an arcade cabinet and for a Saturn, probably a sturdy mid-90's TV with AV. I'm sorry that I play systems the way they were originally designed, Joe.

[MrFulci]

Keranu,

I look at game systems as that they're designed for me to hook them up to whatever I want. And if they don't ahve the output I want on them, it will be installed. hah.

I'll hook any game system up to a large sized television. I knew of folks who did it with a Sega Genesis in the mid 90's. No one ever at his house, or his guests, ever complained about it's look.

The big thing about the Neo Geo for me is that it is the ARCADE AT HOME. The Saturn is a decent system for the time. However, my thoughts on Neo Geo has pretty much been, Neo Geo = Arcade. Granted, that's 90's Arcade machine. It's a beefy 2D system, that lasted quite a while, and was able to do some pretty cool stuff during it's 14-year run.

[Joe Redifer]

The Saturn was designed to be viewed in RGB (or s-video or composite or RF).  You'd probably choose composite.

It doesn't mean the Neo Geo couldn't do it [rotation]

EXACTLY!  That is what I've been trying to say... nobody really pushed the Neo Geo the way that the developers pushed the Genesis.  Of course the Neo Geo could do it, but it never did.  They could have found good uses for it that enhanced gameplay.

The Saturn didn't have the power to actually emulate the Neo Geo

Then why did Metal Slug on the Saturn slow down so much?  I've seen Saturn games with TONS more stuff on the screen moving around at once with more detail and yet no slow down.  To be honest, I have not played the Neo Geo version so I don't know if it slows down or not.  Either the Saturn is emulating or SNK's Saturn programmers are really incompetent. 

Read again on Blazing Star, the Saturn would have had to do ridicously often loading to get through one stage like that.

The Saturn can stream data, and I don't mean in the FMV sense.  Not everything needs to be loaded into RAM while redbook audio plays.  There are many games that have ridiculously long levels that could not fit into 7 megs on the Saturn, but they are streamed as the stage progresses and it is done so very well.  I'm sure it could handle it.  Astal is streamed.  Fighting games where everything must be in memory at once cannot be streamed in this manner.  A shooter?  Definitely.

The system can do as much paralaxing as it needs and a lot of detail with no moving graphics.

I don't recall saying that it can't.  It just does pretty much everything with sprites.  The sprites can be freakin' huge.

Yes but when people say that Neo Geo or SNK is the king of 2D, they don't mean it in a technical standpoint but purely artistic.

Although I'm not a big fan of SNK art (they seemed to like mostly drab colors), I think something that is the King of 2D would need more platformers on it, not just shooters and fighting games.  The Neo Geo is known mostly for its insane amount of fighting games, a genre for which I have little tolerance for when games aren't the best they can be.  Very few Neo Geo games are actually bright, like Super Nintendo games.  Like I said, SNK preferred drab and grainy colors.

OK so if I made a game that featured like 1,000 single colored blocks all over the screen and featured transparency, rotation, and all that other technical stuff, would that mean it had good graphics?

Don't be retarded.  You say only the artwork matters and all of that other stuff isn't really needed.  The artwork in Astal would look much worse without transparencies.  It would look lame to see Megaman run behind a dithered waterfall in MegaMan X4 isntead of a nice, clean transparent one. 

Neo Geo = Arcade

Technically, yes.  But to me the Neo Geo = CONSOLE.  Why?  Well, it can only play Neo Geo games, for one.  And I have seen very, very few Neo Geo MVS units in arcades, even big ones.  And when they were there, the cabinets said NEO GEO, not ART OF FIGHTING or whatever.  So even when I played a Neo Geo in an arcade, I always felt I was playing a game designed for the Neo Geo specifically, not an actual arcade game like Golden Axe or Space Harrier or similar.  It was kind of like going to the arcade and playing an STV game.  It just didn't quite have that "arcade feel".

[MrFulci]

Joe,

I had a different arcade experience than you. Nearly every arcade I went to had a Neo Geo cabinet. There is still a small arcade around here that had a 2-slot Neo Geo cabinet last I saw. Onyl game I recall running on it was Samurai Shodown 2.

Seeing one of those cabinets in the early-mid 90's was pretty cool... Being able to choose a game was pretty nice also, switching between game demos to see what each game played like. I still have World Heroes taunts stuck in my head, due to an arcade.

The cabinets may have said Neo-Geo, however they often had mini-marquees showing what each button does.

I knew of ONE person during the early 90's who had a Neo Geo console. The idea of taking (pretty much, if you count the times game were released on AES censored) the same arcade game home.... wow.

[SNKNostalgia]

Resting in peace.

Technically, yes.  But to me the Neo Geo = CONSOLE.  Why?  Well, it can only play Neo Geo games, for one.  And I have seen very, very few Neo Geo MVS units in arcades, even big ones.  And when they were there, the cabinets said NEO GEO, not ART OF FIGHTING or whatever.  So even when I played a Neo Geo in an arcade, I always felt I was playing a game designed for the Neo Geo specifically, not an actual arcade game like Golden Axe or Space Harrier or similar.  It was kind of like going to the arcade and playing an STV game.  It just didn't quite have that "arcade feel".

What? I hope you noticed that a lot of arcade games made by many companies used the same board designs for their games for years. That would be like saying CPS1 and CPS2 is not arcade because it uses the same board layouts. Sega BTW used System 16 and 32 for awhile.

On rotation.....

EXACTLY!  That is what I've been trying to say... nobody really pushed the Neo Geo the way that the developers pushed the Genesis.  Of course the Neo Geo could do it, but it never did.  They could have found good uses for it that enhanced gameplay.

Why did they need to do rotation effects. I guess that means all their games suck because of that. Why is that so important? Isn't that just a matter of preference?

Then why did Metal Slug on the Saturn slow down so much?  I've seen Saturn games with TONS more stuff on the screen moving around at once with more detail and yet no slow down.  To be honest, I have not played the Neo Geo version so I don't know if it slows down or not.  Either the Saturn is emulating or SNK's Saturn programmers are really incompetent.

1 Meg RAM cart and it should have loaded in the middle of stages more often due to just having that much RAM.  Neo Geo version runs fine AES and CD. There are crap tons of frames going on in that game, more than what you see in sidescrollers on the Saturn that compare to like Metal Slug.

The Saturn can stream data, and I don't mean in the FMV sense.  Not everything needs to be loaded into RAM while redbook audio plays.  There are many games that have ridiculously long levels that could not fit into 7 megs on the Saturn, but they are streamed as the stage progresses and it is done so very well.

Ok it can stream the graphics but not with CD audio at the same time. It would have to pause and load. Also, the music in Blazing Star has really high quality PCM music, maybe the Saturn can do it but it would suffer a little since a lot the songs already took up some hefty memory on the V chips in  the Neo Cart. The Neo CD couldn't even do it, that is why it was cancled on that platform.

Although I'm not a big fan of SNK art (they seemed to like mostly drab colors), I think something that is the King of 2D would need more platformers on it, not just shooters and fighting games.  The Neo Geo is known mostly for its insane amount of fighting games, a genre for which I have little tolerance for when games aren't the best they can be.  Very few Neo Geo games are actually bright, like Super Nintendo games.  Like I said, SNK preferred drab and grainy colors

Yeah, some of the earlier games up to 94 had darker and grainy graphics as the way you are putting it. Also, you just made a reference that the Genesis must be horrible when you put it that way (Mostly dark and colorless, when comparing to the SNES especially). As for grainy graphics and lacking livelyness of color, ummm OK. I am sure a lot of people will agree with you on that, especially with games like KOF 96-98, Last Blade 1-2, Fatal Fury 3, King of the Mosters 2, Real Bout Special and 2, Art of Fighting 3, Metal Slug 1-3, Top Hunter, Sengouku 2, Neo Bomberman, Baseball Stars 2, and about another 60 titles to choose from that I don't feel like listing out of the near 200 games.

Once again, it must just be preference. SNK atleast puts detail in every single pixel and sprite, right around the time the Saturn came out. Not to mention some of the lighting changes they do with each round on some games, like morning, day, evening and night changes. The effort they put into the actual detailed work on these games can't go unoticed. So you must not like any of the many different SNK artists that make different games. From your perception there must be just one art team doing every single game I bet. That would be like saying yeah the art sucks on SF2 and SF Alpha 2 because it is Capcom and their art style is the same on ALL games.

Are you playing these games on a real Neo Geo or is this via emulation? Mine is hooked through component video and I don't see any of this whatsoever in the really good games. If you do own a Neo Geo, why do you hate on it so much? I like both Capcom and SNK, but just because one isn't as PERFECT as the other doesn't mean it is something to dog on.

Look here is the thing. The Neo Geo was made in 1990, Sega Saturn was made in 1995 atleast in the US. Of course the Saturn is going to have advantages over the Neo Geo. So I guess I am just going to give up and let you win on this. It apparently doesn't matter what I or anyone else tells you since you are close minded on this from what I can see. My original qoute, best 2D system. As if in 2D only, made during the time of true 16-bit with the Genesis and SNES. Which you would have to be blind to say that the Neo Geo didn't blow those systems away in graphics. The 32X and maybe the Atari Jaguar(actually 32 bit) were the only systems before the Saturn console that could probably outdo the Neo Geo if it really tried. If you want to use rotation, scaling, and transparency as a reason why a system (like the SNES and Saturn) has superior 2D, then go ahead. I am sure many people will disagree in the reality of this.

BTW, I like pretty much all of these systems and games. They are just different. Some I like a little less than others and a very few I think were really crappy. Why choose an enemy out of very strong consoles with good games.

[Keranu]

The Saturn was designed to be viewed in RGB (or s-video or composite or RF).  You'd probably choose composite.

Can the Saturn be played in RGB without having to do any mods? If that's the case, then I would definitely consider using RGB for Saturn.

Then why did Metal Slug on the Saturn slow down so much?  I've seen Saturn games with TONS more stuff on the screen moving around at once with more detail and yet no slow down.  To be honest, I have not played the Neo Geo version so I don't know if it slows down or not.  Either the Saturn is emulating or SNK's Saturn programmers are really incompetent. 

To help with your arguement, the Neo Geo version does slow down a lot, but not as much as the Saturn version.

Although I'm not a big fan of SNK art (they seemed to like mostly drab colors), I think something that is the King of 2D would need more platformers on it, not just shooters and fighting games.  The Neo Geo is known mostly for its insane amount of fighting games, a genre for which I have little tolerance for when games aren't the best they can be.  Very few Neo Geo games are actually bright, like Super Nintendo games.  Like I said, SNK preferred drab and grainy colors.

SNKnostalgia summed this up. A lot of the earlier games were a bit drab and grainy, not all of them, but a lot. But in my opinion, I find Neo Geo games to be extremely bright and colorful! Just look at games like Garou: Mark of the Wolves, Last Blade 1 and 2 (the art style can be dark, but still colorful in many ways), Twinkle Star Sprites, Sengoku 3, KoF'98-2000 and 2003, Prehistoric Isle, etc. By the way, for you being a Genesis fan, I'm surprised you didn't like the darker colors in some Neo Geo games.

Don't be retarded.  You say only the artwork matters and all of that other stuff isn't really needed.  The artwork in Astal would look much worse without transparencies.  It would look lame to see Megaman run behind a dithered waterfall in MegaMan X4 isntead of a nice, clean transparent one.

I think you're just mad because I made a very solid point  . I would have to play Astal again to check out it's technical features, but to me the main reason Astal looked so nice was because of the beautifully sketched artwork. The bottom line is that artwork comes first and technical effects is just a fantastic way of topping the eye candy. I'm not going to sit here and say technical effects suck because I do find them to be very neat, but SNK is hailed for it's artwork, as previously stated.

[Joe Redifer]

What? I hope you noticed that a lot of arcade games made by many companies used the same board designs for their games for years. That would be like saying CPS1 and CPS2 is not arcade because it uses the same board layouts. Sega BTW used System 16 and 32 for awhile.

Yes, I know... but I didn't know that then back when I roamed the arcades.  Also, the arcade cabinets said things like SPACE HARRIER in giant text with artwork all around instead of SEGA SUPER SCALER or whatever the hell they called it with only a little square up top with the Space Harrier logo and button commands.  I felt like I was playing a Space Harrier machine instead of a system with 6 games running on it.  It just made the game stand out more in the arcade when it was done this way, in my opinion.  Now if they had dedicated Magician Lord/Last Resort/whatever machines that were self-standing and then they started showing up on the Neo Geo perfectly intact (as they would), then my hard-on for the system would be lots bigger.  It's just my experience and I'm sure a lot of Neo Geo MVS fans would mightily disagree, especially since they like having 2 or more slots in their home (switching carts must be a pain in the ass for them if they need 2 or more loaded at once to be happy).

Why did they need to do rotation effects. I guess that means all their games suck because of that. Why is that so important? Isn't that just a matter of preference?

Again since you cited the Neo Geo as basically the most powerful 2D console, I am just citing system capability.  It didn't need to do rotation, though if the system had the capability I guarantee you tons of games would find use for it, just like scaling.

Ok it can stream the graphics but not with CD audio at the same time. It would have to pause and load.

No it wouldn't.  Again you are assuming redbook audio.  The music in Astal is streamed as well.  There is no redbook audio.  In other words, you can't just pop the CD into a CD player and listen to it.  Astal probably isn't the best example of streaming that I could use, but it's the first one that pops into my head.

Also, you just made a reference that the Genesis must be horrible when you put it that way (Mostly dark and colorless, when comparing to the SNES especially).

Yes, but the Genesis only had 512 wimpy colors and the most it has ever put on screen in a legitimate game was somewhere around 167.  The Genesis could have good graphics, yes, considering it's limited resources.  The Neo Geo has 65,000 colors with over 4,000 onscreen at once.  The reason I make the SNES comparison is because with a color count like that, you'd expect more advantage to be taken by the developers.  This certainly doesn't mean the Neo is incapable in any way regarding colors.  And yes, I find that a lot of the SNK art looks similar.  There is definitely a difference between the early games and the middle games (think KoF 95-98 or whatever).  I haven't seen Garou of the Wolves or whatever.  I have the Dreamcast version and I hate it, but I imagine the NG version is different since the Dreamcast version uses polygons in the background.

Are you playing these games on a real Neo Geo or is this via emulation? Mine is hooked through component video and I don't see any of this whatsoever in the really good games.

On a real Neo Geo, my friend.  I also play mine in component and games like Magician Lord look freakin' awesome!  I tend not to collect the games which I think might not have graphics up to the standards of the system so I don't have any KoF games (I have 'em for the Saturn and never cared for the way they looked, but playing them was kind of fun).  Anyway, as has already been pointed out, artwork preference is subjective.  Just because I say an art style looks good doesn't mean it IS good, and just because other people say SNK style art looks good doesn't mean it IS good. 

I think you're just mad because I made a very solid point

No, you were still missing my point with your example.  You thought I was trying to say stuff like rotation was the only thing that matters.  I only kept bringing it up because others were saying that the Neo Geo was the most capable 2D console.  It lacks many capabilities in the hardware and I'm sure some of them could be done in software, though they never were to my knowledge.

Can the Saturn be played in RGB without having to do any mods?

Yes of course.  It is a Sega system.

Look guys, I'm not "hating" on the Neo Geo.  I just don't think it is as orgasmicly awesome as everyone else says it is.  As far as I know, I am the only person on the planet who has ever DARED say anything even remotely negative about the console.  I have a very detailed and critical eye, so when I see someone say things like the Neo Geo is more powerful at 2D than the 32-bit systems were, I can't stay silent.  Is the Neo Geo more powerful than the Genesis and the SNES?  You bet (Mode 7 wasn't something I really loved).  Was it more powerful than the 32X?  In most ways, yes.  In 2D?  HELL YES.  Was it more powerful than the Jaguar at 2D?  I think probably so, as the Jaguar didn't seem to be able to scroll multiple layers from what I saw (and what I saw was very little).  Personally I think that the Neo Geo never reached the height of what it could truly do, which is why I say that the developers didn't push it like they did the Genesis.  I wanted to see the Neo maxed out, man!  It had a 68000 and those things can be pushed really far!  I love my Neo, though I don't play it as often due to a lack of games that fit my tastes.  I've got my eye on Neo Drift Out and Marmelade (or whatever it's called).

One thing of concern, though certainly not something worth arguing over, but why do people refer to the Neo Geo as a "dual processor" system and not the Genesis?  Both had a 68000.  Both had a Z-80 running the sound.  What gives?