VC: Why TG-16 and not PCE in Europe?

[Monster Bonce]

Let's not get carried away here. But, yes, drunken Irish is a stereotype. So is drunken Finns and drunken Norwegians. I think the British make more top of the class A grade angry drunks than anyone else, but that's still a stereotype

Besides, I've always felt that Americans can't hold their drink—at least the ones I've met. I suspect that most Europeans drink more, though America is so vast there are, I'm sure, huge differences in attitudes to alcohol.

PS Irishness is not an ethnicity, it's a nationality.

[Golgo13]

PS Irishness is not an ethnicity, it's a nationality.

Explain how Irishness is not an ethnicity.  I was just wondering this, because where im from, we always viewed the Irish as an ethnic group, just as Italians, Greeks, Germans etc.  We all spoke english and it was just assumed we are americans, but we still did not forget about where we came from, unlike many people in other parts of America.

I mean I never understood how the dutch for example, could call a morrocan "Dutch" it seems only they are stupid enough to believe in such logic.  Just to give you an example of what I mean, If I walked around Holland and happened to have been born in china and spoke fluent chinese, went around here telling people I was chinese, they would all laugh in my face.  And yet, when some Morrocan or Turk calls himself "Dutch" because he was born in Holland, they look at him with a straight face, and take it very seriously.

[Monster Bonce]

Many, but not all of the Irish I knew liked to drink. Its not just a stereotype though, recently I read a study that Ireland has the highest rate of binge drinking in europe, around 22% of young people, If I recall england and other  countries up there also rank high.  The lowest was Italy and Greece with around 2%.  I worked in a nightclub in Athens and I indeed saw very few people get really drunk.  The Irish nun I had in school used to get really pissed about this Irish like to drink stereotype, but she was a nun and did not drink a single drop of alcohol.

You do realise that binge drinking is complete nonsense, don't you? The government statistics are ridiculous. Two glasses of wine with your dinner and you're a so-called "binge drinker".

Moreover, the methodology is faulty. There is no internationally recongised as to what constitutes a ‘binge’. The UK minimum definition, for example, is 'more than six units of alcohol on a single occasion'—that's two pints of beer.

According to the WHO Luxembourg has the highest consumption of units of alcohol per head, not Ireland. In fact, dear old Luxy has the highest per capita consumption in the world. For such a small country they certainly know how to put it away. Where is the moralising and hand-wringing of the drunken Luxembourgeois? The Czech Republic is second, Ireland is third and France is fourth.

Countries with "above average" consumption include Latvia, Lithuania, Germany, France, Ireland, Spain, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Austria, Croatia, Denmark, Switzerland, Portugal, Slovakia and Moldova. Given that that is most of Europe it does rather beg the question: what the hell does "above average" actually mean?

Not very much, I would suggest. Could it be that such, cough, "European" countries as Turkmenistan, Armenia, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Kyrgystan and Kazakstan (which were included in the report for some reason) that happen to have Muslim majorities are actually distorting the average by dragging it down? Heaven forbid!

Also, many of those "studies" come from dubious think tanks and charities. One recent one made the headlines in Britain. It later turned out that it was from a group founded by the Salvation Army whose current head is a devout Muslim. Hardly the people I'd ask to do a study on alcohol.

Even the WHO is less than impartial.

Meanwhile, the British government has recently come out saying that pregnant women shouldn't drink at all. I'm aware that middle America has long been used to thinking of pregnant women as disabled and wrapping them up in cotton wool, but such an attitude is unheard of in Europe. Or rather it was until now.

[Monster Bonce]

Explain how Irishness is not an ethnicity.  I was just wondering this, because where im from, we always viewed the Irish as an ethnic group, just as Italians, Greeks, Germans etc.  We all spoke english and it was just assumed we are americans, but we still did not forget about where we came from, unlike many people in other parts of America.

I mean I never understood how the dutch for example, could call a morrocan "Dutch" it seems only they are stupid enough to believe in such logic.  Just to give you an example of what I mean, If I walked around Holland and happened to have been born in china and spoke fluent chinese, went around here telling people I was chinese, they would all laugh in my face.  And yet, when some Morrocan or Turk calls himself "Dutch" because he was born in Holland, they look at him with a straight face, and take it very seriously.

Any person of Moroccan descent born in Holland is Dutch. End of story. He can call himself Moroccan or of Moroccan descent if he wants, but he is primarily Dutch.

However, that's not my point. Irish people—actual Irish people in Ireland—would be offended if you told them they were ethnically distinct from other Europeans. Ireland is a country and a nation and it has a culture, but that's it.

I think the difference here is that you are American and I am European and we think about these things in different ways.

By the same token, the way Americans define "Hispanics" as being non-white baffles Europeans. It does seem like racism to us. I'm not saying it is, it just comes across this way. A sort of unnecessary stressing of difference.

[Golgo13]

Many, but not all of the Irish I knew liked to drink. Its not just a stereotype though, recently I read a study that Ireland has the highest rate of binge drinking in europe, around 22% of young people, If I recall england and other  countries up there also rank high.  The lowest was Italy and Greece with around 2%.  I worked in a nightclub in Athens and I indeed saw very few people get really drunk.  The Irish nun I had in school used to get really pissed about this Irish like to drink stereotype, but she was a nun and did not drink a single drop of alcohol.

You do realise that binge drinking is complete nonsense, don't you? The government statistics are ridiculous. Two glasses of wine with your dinner and you're a so-clled "binge drinker".

Moreover, the methodology is faulty. There is no internationally recongised as to what constitutes a ‘binge’. The UK minimum definition, for example, is 'more than six units of alcohol on a single occasion'—that's two pints of beer.

According to the WHO Luxembourg has the highest consumption of units of alcohol per head, not Ireland. In fact, dear old Luxy has the highest per capita consumption in the world. For such a small country they certainly know how to put it away. Where is the moralising and hand-wringing of the drunken Luxembourgeois? The Czech Republic is second, Ireland is third and France is fourth.

Countries with "above average" consumption include Latvia, Lithuania, Germany, France, Ireland, Spain, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Austria, Croatia, Denmark, Switzerland, Portugal, Slovakia and Moldova. Given that that is most of Europe it does rather beg the question: what the hell does "above average" actually mean?

Not very much, I would suggest. Could it be that such, cough, "European" countries as Turkmenistan, Armenia, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Kyrgystan and Kazakstan (which were included in the report for some reason) that happen to have Muslim majorities are actually distorting the average by dragging it down? Heaven forbid!

Also, many of those "studies" come from dubious think tanks and charities. One recent one made the headlines in Britain. It later turned out that it was from a group founded by the Salvation Army whose current head is a devout Muslim. Hardly the people I'd ask to do a study on alcohol.

Even the WHO is less than impartial.

Meanwhile, the British government has recently come out saying that pregnant women shouldn't drink at all. I'm aware that middle America has long been used to thinking of pregnant women as disabled and wrapping them up in cotton wool, but such an attitude is unheard of in Europe. Or rather it was until now.

Yeah, I think your right, but I based what I said more on my personal experiences with Irish people, It may very well be true that they are not the top drinkers in europe and its all bullshit.  But one thing I was always certain of is that they can drink much more than I can, and can function much better than I can after drinking as a general rule.   
I had a girlfriend in high school who was from belfast, and she did not drink much at all, but she told me many of them do drink there.

[Monster Bonce]

I'm not saying Irish people don't drink. They certainly do on the whole and they're definitely in the top ten in Europe, no doubt about that. It's just that it's all so subjective. Americans seem to drink so little. It's doubtlessly a cultural difference.

The legal age being 21 in some (most?) US states seems laughable to us. And it won't work.

Anyway, I have to go out for a while. Will resume later.

[Golgo13]

Explain how Irishness is not an ethnicity.  I was just wondering this, because where im from, we always viewed the Irish as an ethnic group, just as Italians, Greeks, Germans etc.  We all spoke english and it was just assumed we are americans, but we still did not forget about where we came from, unlike many people in other parts of America.

I mean I never understood how the dutch for example, could call a morrocan "Dutch" it seems only they are stupid enough to believe in such logic.  Just to give you an example of what I mean, If I walked around Holland and happened to have been born in china and spoke fluent chinese, went around here telling people I was chinese, they would all laugh in my face.  And yet, when some Morrocan or Turk calls himself "Dutch" because he was born in Holland, they look at him with a straight face, and take it very seriously.

Any person of Moroccan descent born in Holland is Dutch. End of story. He can call himself Moroccan or of Moroccan descent if he wants, but he is primarily Dutch.

However, that's not my point. Irish people—actual Irish people in Ireland—would be offended if you told them they were ethnically distinct from other Europeans. Ireland is a country and a nation and it has a culture, but that's it.

I think the difference here is that you are American and I am European and we think about these things in different ways.

By the same token, the way Americans define "Hispanics" as being non-white baffles Europeans. It does seem like racism to us. I'm not saying it is, it just comes across this way. A sort of unnecessary stressing of difference.

No, its got nothing to do with american or european, its got to do with common sense and understanding the old meaning of the word nation, versus the modern "Politically Correct" word for Nation.  I lived in Greece and there people viewed Albanians and others with Greek passports as "Albanians" pure and simple.  The primary reason the Dutch for example feel the overwhelming need to call morrocans dutch is because they have guilt complexes about the colonies and foreign peoples they exploited, whereas in Greece they had no such history like this, so the calling somebody what they actually are is not associated with any kind of racism or predjudice, just common sense.

[Monster Bonce]

Well what is your definition of nation?

One last thing I'll say: beware of priests. Regardless of whether they're actual priests or political or medical authorities delivering moral lectures, they're all full of shit.

Gotta go.

[Golgo13]

I can help answer your question

"By the same token, the way Americans define "Hispanics" as being non-white baffles Europeans. It does seem like racism to us. I'm not saying it is, it just comes across this way. A sort of unnecessary stressing of difference."

The Spanish are just like any other europeans, but in America, real Spanish descended people are really rare, there are however many people who are a mix of spanish and the original native peoples of mexico, and the puerto ricans who are a mix of spanish and africans.  They all speak spanish, and so this is how the term "Hispanic" was coined, and this is why people in america associate "Spanish" or "Hispanic" with non white.

Now as for the definition of nation, what MY definition is really irrelevant because I did not invent the word, I just know the root meaning of the word.  It is rooted in the Latin word meaning "Birth" which meant at that time a people related by common blood or ancestry.  Cicero used the word in this way in 44 BC:

"Omnes nationes servitutem ferre possunt: nostra civitas non potest."
("All races are able to bear enslavement, but our community cannot.")

Now, this is where the problem comes in, because the American idea that "If you were born here, your one of us" has made its way into western europe, particularly countries that had a history of exploitation of other peoples.   The reason for this is because they have such a guilt complex about thier own ethnic identity and national history, that they are terrified of insulting a Morrocan or Pakistan among them by calling them "Morrocan" or "Pakistan".

In most of eastern and southern europe, no guilt complex exists like this, so ethnic minorities are called what they are based on where they come from, regardless of where they were born, the meaning of the word nation had not been altered for the sake of political correctness.

Now, in my case I am an American of Greek, and a small amount of Italian ancestry, I grew up in a neighborhood where all of us were descended from immigration to Ellis Island, which is where many Irish and others also came in.  And as a result, we always felt different than the other Americans outside the city.  If I am talking with somebody from my area about somebody else, for example "Anthony" I would say "Anthony's Italian" I wouldnt say "Anthony Is american" because he is American by default simply because he was born in america and speaks english.  We dont refer to each other as "Americans" where I am from. 

[Black Tiger]

Here's a great page dealing with Irish discrimination.

I don't mean to turn this thread around, but I really do think Irish stereotypes are junk. People may not see any harm in calling an Irish a drunk, but it can. Just imagine my brother, who has recovered from strong alcoholism over the past couple of years, if he was talking to someone and he found out my brother was Irish and started ragging him on about drinking, which is probably the last thing my brother would want to hear. I just really hate to see how it seems so acceptable to say Irish stereotypes on TV and such. Don't even get me started on Muslim stereotypes.

I don't even think that the people stereotyping Muslims even get that specific. The have a problem with anyone they think looks a-rab.

[Golgo13]

Here's a great page dealing with Irish discrimination.

I don't mean to turn this thread around, but I really do think Irish stereotypes are junk. People may not see any harm in calling an Irish a drunk, but it can. Just imagine my brother, who has recovered from strong alcoholism over the past couple of years, if he was talking to someone and he found out my brother was Irish and started ragging him on about drinking, which is probably the last thing my brother would want to hear. I just really hate to see how it seems so acceptable to say Irish stereotypes on TV and such. Don't even get me started on Muslim stereotypes.

I don't even think that the people stereotyping Muslims even get that specific. The have a problem with anyone they think looks a-rab.

The problem here in western Europe is simple, they piss and moan about what the muslims are doing, when its nobodys fault but their own.  Last time I checked, Holland was not on the border of Morroco, THEY Let them in, and THEY wanted to exploit them for cheap labor.  and THEY were the ones who years ago told anybody who was concerned about the possible cultural friction that may result to Shut the f*ck up. 

I really honestly don't have a problem with the Muslims, because they are not the root of the problem as far as im concerned.  If the Dutch want to blame somebody for their problems, all they have to do, is look in the mirror.

[Black Tiger]

I do find it weird that people who group by ethnicity have so many distinctions for so-called darker races, but throw together such a huge variety of cultures and different physical traits under the label of "white".

[Golgo13]

I do find it weird that people who group by ethnicity have so many distinctions for so-called darker races, but throw together such a huge variety of cultures and different physical traits under the label of "white".

Yeah personally I don't like the term "White" just as many "Black" people don't like the term "Black" and prefer "African American" or such things. To me "White" is far too general a term, and frankly I don't want to be associated with being simply "White".  I have about as much in common culturally with some american "White" people as I do an eskimo, actually I probably have more in common with the eskimo, because the eskimo still has a cultural idenity, whereas many "White" americans have none.

[MrFulci]

Wow, thread is pretty derailed, haha.

Chiming in to say a bit about drinking.

A person's background, and their family background, can play a part in how their body handles drink (along with social situation, body build, etc). About the age of 6 or so my grandfather gave me my first sip of Cognac.... haha. I was asking about a drinking set he had, and he decided to let me have a taste. With his background, letting a 6 year-old have a sip of Cognac wasn't a big deal. I recall the Cognac bruning my mouth, that stuck with me.

I'm not a heavy person, that seems to be the the biggest factor in how much I can drink in an hour and keep most of my bearings.

[Monster Bonce]

Too much to respond to above in the time I have right now (gotta go out again). A couple of quick points:

There is a lot of confusion about the different meanings of country (the land within the borders and, arguably, its people), the state (a country's political apparatus) and the nation (a primarily cultural entity based on descent that can span national borders). The terms are not interchangeable.

Nevertheless, if you are born somewhere and take on that place's culture, then you are a member of that nation. I would say that that is the mainstream European view. If people segregate themselves—as distinct from being segregated by the society they live in, an entirely different matter—then there is clearly a problem and Europe has certainly seen some of that.

Overall, the concept of the nation is not particularly helpful today. If you've got citizenship then that is all that should matter. This is not a particularly US view.

Greece is often considered quite a racist country by some Europeans. I know nothing about Greece and that perception in itself could be nothing more than prejudice—lazy-minded Northern European contempt for Southern Europeans. However, viewing someone whose parent were born outside of the country as foreign is not common in much of Europe and it's not political correctness that has informed this. If you are born somewhere then that's where you're from. This doesn't preclude multiple identities.

One problem is that while multiculturalism was well-meaning it, like all post-modern theories, refuses to make qualitative judgements and argues that no culture is superior to another. As a result it actually promotes difference. All identity politics do this. They're bogus and divisive by their very nature.

Immigration is not a problem everywhere in Europe. Some people, such as myself, are all in favour of it. However, I also demand a secular, humanist state and have no truck with religious nonsense. The French so-called "ban" on religious iconography in school seems perfectly sensible to me.

Where there is an immigration problem it is partly as a result of what you say. However, there are other issues. France, for example, has failed to live up to its republicanism by stuffing people into the banlieiux and then forgetting about them, happily discriminating against them and their descendants. Similarly, Germany's fear of Turks is rooted in Germany's own failures.