Analyzing Street Fighter 2: CE on why it is so great.

[Joe Redifer]

BECAUSE THE GENESIS GAMES WERE PACKED WITH THAT MUCH MORE AWESOME, THAT'S WHY!!!

Seriously though, I imagine that may have been Sega's idea.  I don't think the Genesis code is larger or whatnot.  I think it's just "padded" to fill up the extra space (or perhaps simply less-optimized) so they can say the largest version is on a Sega system.  Though SF2 Special Champion edition did have Turbo features that weren't in the PCE version.

[nodtveidt]

You can trust my experience as a programmer that game code is NEVER inconsequential in terms of size. The PCE and SNES used classic CISC-type processors, both based in the 6502, but the Genesis used a RISC-type processor, the 68000. Codespace immediately expands when you use a RISC-type processor (look at any one of many, many old legacy Macintosh ports for a great real-world example of this). I don't think graphics storage is any different in size amongst the three consoles of the time, considering their sprite capabilities in particular were largely identical (single palette, 16 color maximum) save for sprite size, of course. Tile graphics are usually compressed with cartridge-based media, but different companies used different compression schemes and there was never any real "standard" for that back then. But the code will play a major role in storage capacities, that's why the Mega CD unit was given three times as much RAM as its only competitor at the time (which was, of course, the PCE-CD). They needed that extra storage to hold the additional code that would be required to accomplish the same tasks.

[Joe Redifer]

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that a HuCard game that is 2 megs would take up 6 megs of space on the Genesis.  In fact when I see a 4 meg game on the Turbo, it seems like a 4 meg game on the Genesis in terms of overall game size, capabilities, features, etc.

Also, doesn't RISC stand for Reduced Instruction Set Computer or similar?  Reduced instruction set.  That means reduced instructions to accomplish the same tasks.  But it really doesn't matter, as the 68000 was CISC based... not RISC.

[nodtveidt]

A RISC-type processor means that the instruction set is reduced, not that the amount of code is reduced. Reduced Instruction Set = fewer instructions on the chip = more instructions needed to perform the same tasks.

There is much conflicting information on the status of the 68000. Many sources state that the 68000 is a CISC processor, but many other sources state that it is a RISC processor. The processor architecture is very old, but it was developed during the "true" rise of the RISC processor. One might argue that the 68000 is a "crossover" between the two architectures. It is certainly true that the 68000 contains fewer instructions than a typical 6502-based CPU, although it may not be a "true" RISC-type CPU. Reputable sources offer conflicting data on this.

[Black Tiger]

I don't remember what was unique about Genesis' Super SFII, but Special Champ Edition has lots of extra graphics not found in the other versions, like the full hate-crime arcade intro, animating defeated portraits and extra bg details.

Plus the sfx samples are long and uncut like the PCE samples. But the SNES ones are cut up and reworked as much as possible. Not only are many sped up or echoed off of brief clips, but voices like 'Shouryuken' are cut to "Sho...yukin". When you hear it in the middle of a match, you'd never notice it. But if you look at a recording of it in a sound program, there's a huge gap.

Capcom put a lot of effort into the SFC/SNES version and not nearly so much into the MD/Gen & PCE versions. But they're all closer as overall games than most people think. They're just different in unique ways, which makes it more interesting to play through them all.

[Joe Redifer]

Hate crime?  LOL.  The Genesis Super SF2 has the animated intro where Ryu throws a huge fireball at the screen.  Do the other versions have that?  I don't think that would take up 8 megs, though.

Also, it is likely that Capcom clipped the voices of the SNES version into segments.  Kind of like how recordings of "forty" and "two" can be pieced together to say "42".  They probably did this with some of the moves.  But then again, I could be speaking out of my ass!

[Turbo D]

Special Champ Edition has lots of extra graphics not found in the other versions, like the full hate-crime arcade intro, animating defeated portraits and extra bg details.

They got rid of the hate crime on the genesis version. Pop it in ur genny and you will be surprised that it is two white guys, unlike the arcade.

[Joe Redifer]

That's right!  Two white guys cannot possibly hate each other, so no special treatment for that victim!

Anyway I think the Genesis voices sound bad because there is only one DAC in the thing.  The game had to be able to play back more than one voice at a time, which it often does.  Also you have sampled drums and elephant screeches.  The sample rate was probably halved if not quartered to accomplish this through a single channel.

[malducci]

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that a HuCard game that is 2 megs would take up 6 megs of space on the Genesis.  In fact when I see a 4 meg game on the Turbo, it seems like a 4 meg game on the Genesis in terms of overall game size, capabilities, features, etc.

Also, doesn't RISC stand for Reduced Instruction Set Computer or similar?  Reduced instruction set.  That means reduced instructions to accomplish the same tasks.  But it really doesn't matter, as the 68000 was CISC based... not RISC.

 When it comes to code, the 680x0 code will be larger than the 65x02 and 65816 and even it's younger brother, the 6809. And the 68000 opcodes are RISC type in format, not 100% because a few opcode combinations are not possible - they're simulated on the assembler side. Also, any sort of array or data structure that is not a even multiple of 2 bytes, really throws a wrench into the speed of accessing it - usually padded to 16 or 32bit for simplicity or speed, at the expense of size. Trying to turn a disadvantage into a great sales pitch?

Anyway, I remember looking at SF2:CE for PCE and all the characters (frames) were uncompressed graphics. The backgrounds are compressed though (maybe someday I'll write and extraction app for that). The hucard only has access to 8k of ram, so decompressing a bunch of frames into ram for quick access is not an option (snes has 128k and the gens 64k).

I just noticed something about the genesis version, it's running in 256 x 2XX mode. That's kind of strange. They must have done that to save space on graphics. The arcade is 384x224. The PCE could've came really close with it's 380pixel mode(mid res), and the gens with it's 320 pixel mode, but the snes is limited to 256 (the SNES 512 pixel mode is pretty much useless because of the sprite/scanline limit). I haven't played the other Gens versions. I wonder if they run in 320 or not.

Btw, I thought the genesis music was cool and impressive considering the limited number of sounding instruments you have on that yamaha chip. The pce music impressed me more though as the samples sound great for trying to emulate the arcade's instruments. The snes version is least impressive for what it's capable of. Also, the gens isn't known for it's digitized sound playback (most sound effects in genesis games are synth - instruments from it's lib) so the quality of the digitized effects was about what I was expecting.

[Black Tiger]

Special Champ Edition has lots of extra graphics not found in the other versions, like the full hate-crime arcade intro, animating defeated portraits and extra bg details.

They got rid of the hate crime on the genesis version. Pop it in ur genny and you will be surprised that it is two white guys, unlike the arcade.

Only for race obdessed America. The japanese version still has 'white on black' violence while a crowd cheers on.

I just noticed something about the genesis version, it's running in 256 x 2XX mode. That's kind of strange. They must have done that to save space on graphics. The arcade is 384x224. The PCE could've came really close with it's 380pixel mode(mid res), and the gens with it's 320 pixel mode, but the snes is limited to 256 (the SNES 512 pixel mode is pretty much useless because of the sprite/scanline limit). I haven't played the other Gens versions. I wonder if they run in 320 or not.

Capcom didn't even try to port the arcade to Genesis or PCE. They just kept regurgitating the original SNES World Warrior port. The strengths of the Gen & PCE versions' visuals are when they deviate from the SNES version.

Hate crime?  LOL.  The Genesis Super SF2 has the animated intro where Ryu throws a huge fireball at the screen.  Do the other versions have that?  I don't think that would take up 8 megs, though.

The SNES version has the full intro as well. If I remember correctly, the Genesis SSFII has some extra graphics for its tournament mode or something.

[Joe Redifer]

Also, the gens isn't known for it's digitized sound playback (most sound effects in genesis games are synth - instruments from it's lib) so the quality of the digitized effects was about what I was expecting.

But the Gens has better digital sound quality than the Turbs.  Though the Turbs seems to be able to play more simultaneously than the Gens due to the design of the Turbs' sound hardware.  They're both beaten by the SNins, though.

[malducci]

Also, the gens isn't known for it's digitized sound playback (most sound effects in genesis games are synth - instruments from it's lib) so the quality of the digitized effects was about what I was expecting.

But the Gens has better digital sound quality than the Turbs.  Though the Turbs seems to be able to play more simultaneously than the Gens due to the design of the Turbs' sound hardware.  They're both beaten by the SNins, though.

 Ehh? Unless you can show my specific examples, all the docs I read state the last channel in the yamaha chip wasn't meant for clean/clear digitized samples- it wasn't as simple as streaming 8bit values to the DAC at 7khz or higher. The SNES effects/voices in black Tigers comparison video(youtube) sound muffled like a lower kHz sample, albeit with filtering. I'm talking about all 3 of the original ports - not sure about the other snes and gen versions/updates/whatever.

 I checked out Super SFII on genesis and it runs in 256 pixel mode as well (I couldn't get very far though at the game had emulation problems/corruption).

[Joe Redifer]

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/genesisvoiceexamples.mp3

http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/TurboGrafxVoiceExamples.mp3

[Tatsujin]

it may would be interessting if someone can make some color counts of few of the same screens shots of each system

[Black Tiger]

it may would be interessting if someone can make some color counts of few of the same screens shots of each system

If I remember right, the Genesis screenshots are around 40, PCE around 80 and SNES 80 - 120.