Analyzing Street Fighter 2: CE on why it is so great.

[Joe Redifer]

'spenoza, go to www.sega-16.com and talk about it on their forums (you can't make a new thread until you have made 10 regular posts, but there are existing threads dealing with Genesis models and as well as audio).

Here are some pics I took from emulators:


ARCADE - 140 colors


SNES - 108 colors


NEC TurboGrafx-16 Entertainment Supersystem - 77 colors (slight cropping due to Magic Engine's "DEMO VERSION" bar)


Genesis - 44 colors

[Black Tiger]

'spenoza, go to www.sega-16.com and talk about it on their forums (you can't make a new thread until you have made 10 regular posts, but there are existing threads dealing with Genesis models and as well as audio).

Here are some pics I took from emulators:

Those arcade and SNES screenshots are from World Warrior.


Here are some similar unaltered pics of CE:


Arcade - 148 colors




SNES - 98 colors




PC Engine - 75 colors




Genesis - 44 colors




I resized the arcade screenshots for the article I'm working on to make it easier to compare bg elements and general colors.

[Joe Redifer]

I like the unaltered shots because then you can compare resolutions as well.  Also, you should move the characters to the edge of the screen so you can see the missing elephants that no system has the power to do.  The only difference in the graphics between my shots and yours (Turbo??) is that the rug is blue instead of orange... same with the drape on the wall.

The Genesis seems to have the least letterboxing.

[malducci]

About the 68000, according to Wikipedia it's a CISC chip, 16-bit design with many 32-bit registers. Feeding data to 32-bit registers normally requires it be 32-bit data, which should be relatively large if code size is indeed not inconsequential. I know later 680x0 chips were true 32 bit, but the 68000 appears to be something of a bridge or crossover chip, being the first in the series and all. I've always been a little confused by that because the 68030 and on were 32-bit in and out, and early Macintosh code that ran on the 68000-based Macs was 32-bit code and ran fine on the later CPUs. I'm sure, of course, OS support played a role and I doubt the early stuff was written all in assembly, but the "bitness" of the original 68000 has always been a confusing issue.

 Watch out for wikipedia, even if it's a great source for info (correct or otherwise). The 68000 is more RISC than CISC - it only has 59 instructions out of a 16bit and/or 32bit opcode build, and paired with the fact that it has an orthogonal instruction set, I don't how one could say it's CISC. CISC instructions are individual/separate from one another (each instruction is it's own opcode). Heh, the 65x02 variants are predecessors to RISC approach, in the fact that the opcode is devised of the instruction bits, address mode bits, and operand like that of RISC - not CISC.

 The 68000 is a 16bit CPU with a 16bit data bus. It can process 32bit arithmetic/shift/bitwise operations but the internal ALU is still 16bit. It uses combination of two 16bit ALUs to create a 32bit program counter(addressable memory) and 32bit operations. The 32bit operations are the same as on a 68020, but actually executing on a 32bit ALU ( and less clock cycles for the same instruction regardless of Mhz).

Click here for Genesis voice examples recorded from real hardware by me.

Click here for TurboGrafx voice examples from Black Tiger (I assume from real hardware).

Nice examples.

 But practicality prevents clear samples(6-7khz range) on the genesis'  channel six DAC when DMAing is happening to the VDP (VRAM). This includes the z80 since it will halt if it accesses the bus (and yamaha address range) while the DMA is happening, and resume afterwards. (The genesis is known for this problem)

 This is important since the genesis can not access VRAM during active display, so it must do all the transfers as fast as it can during vblank (inactive display) - thus DMA (which halts the main CPU and will halt the z80 if it trys to access the bus). Generally you can get clear samples when there's not much happening on screen (DMA to VRAM per frame not needed or is very short).

 The PCE can avoid this problem because it can write to VRAM at anytime during active display. There's no need to DMA to the VRAM only during vblank - halting the CPU in the process (though you can if you wanted too). Both the PCE and the Gens will play samples at frequencies as fast as you can write to the DACs, but *both* have frequency limits for general in game use with the gens being a little more limited.

 The 4 PSG channels on the gens is only accessable on the z80 with a direct port to the VDP (yes the video controller handles the PSG sound), but is not halted by the DMA if the z80 does not access the main CPU's bus ( I think samples and code have to be played out of the z80's ram to avoid being halted). I wonder if SF2 used the PSG unit instead for sound samples...

( A nice PCE sample. Play it on the real hardware or current medanfen. )

[Joe Redifer]

Dude, if you are going to keep calling it "the Gens", then I demand you refer to anything PCE as "the Turbs".  It's only fair... and logical.

Also, I know of no Genesis game that uses the PSG channels for vocal or digitized effects.  The PSG has quite limited sound, and you can listen to them in the SMS port of Street Fighter 2.  The voices sound a bit smoother, but more limited in the way of frequency response.

Also, can you make an MP3 out of that link?  I have no way to play your sample.

[malducci]

Heh-heh-heh... ok fine, "the turbs". "the Gens" sounds cool IMO.  I'll see if I can make an mp3 tonight (if B_T doesn't beat me to it).

(Goes off to listen to some Vapor trail music for hours on end).

[Black Tiger]

Heh-heh-heh... ok fine, "the turbs". "the Gens" sounds cool IMO.  I'll see if I can make an mp3 tonight (if B_T doesn't beat me to it).

(Goes off to listen to some Vapor trail music for hours on end).

Too late! I actually already had a Duo hooked to my PC since I was recording sound roms last night.

I had wanted to include the Mario 64 voice demo back when I made that Turbo voice sample mp3, but at the time none of the computers in the house that work with the flash card were working. Its kinda buggy on real hardware, but http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/lunar_voice_clip.mp3
it is.

The Lunar clip sounds rough on my PC running in Magic Engine, but http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/lunar_voice_clip.mp3
on real hardware.

Dude, if you are going to keep calling it "the Gens", then I demand you refer to anything PCE as "the Turbs".  It's only fair... and logical.

Also, I know of no Genesis game that uses the PSG channels for vocal or digitized effects.  The PSG has quite limited sound, and you can listen to them in the SMS port of Street Fighter 2.  The voices sound a bit smoother, but more limited in the way of frequency response.

Also, can you make an MP3 out of that link?  I have no way to play your sample.

It plays in Magic Engine, but ME on my computer sounds noticibly different than real hardware, especially PCE sound samples.

I like the unaltered shots because then you can compare resolutions as well.  Also, you should move the characters to the edge of the screen so you can see the missing elephants that no system has the power to do.  The only difference in the graphics between my shots and yours (Turbo??) is that the rug is blue instead of orange... same with the drape on the wall.

The Genesis seems to have the least letterboxing.

The Genesis version does indeed have 8 extra pixels of height in its background.

The feature was only going to compare the home consoles to one another. I only tacked on some arcade shots once the project began to grow in size.

The console shots are all at their real actual resolutions. Its hard to judge whats changed from the arcade when looking at a warped image that is meant to be viewed at a different aspect ratio, let alone when its a different ratio than the screenshots its being compared to.

If I end up finishing everything as planned, all the little things like missing elephants will be detailed with more than just full screen grabs. The screenshots I posted were from the seperate backgrounds section. I was only going to use a screenshot from the centre of each stage, since the bgs warp as you scroll across them and it would already be 36 screenshots as-is. I may still try to collage together the full stages as I had wanted to early on, but I've already got too many unfinished projects as it is...


Malducci: I finally got the Kabukiden sound rip rom to work on my Duo by flashing it alone to the card. For some reason I had thought that that was the first thing I tried way back when. :oops:

It turns out the drums don't use ADPCM as I had thought, so I don't know if a sound rip that uses ADPCM will run off the card. The one game I know uses ADPCM in its PSG music is Dragon Slayer, but only the sequel's music has been ripped so far(maybe the ADPCM posed a problem for people trying to rip it?).

[Tatsujin]

Also, it probably helped that the PCE was already being maxed out in those days. It wasn't until 95-96 when the SNES and Genesis did some really amazing stuff with the help of more experience and higher meg counts.

that counts the same for the PCE in term of "really amazing stuff" > e.g. Sapphire in '95, which even toped anything on any 16-bitter at that time (Neo Geo exclusive).

[Joe Redifer]

That is definitely a nice sound sample!  But of course that one sound sample is as big or bigger than all but 1 HuCard in existence.  Now do it for the Genesis as well.  Should be similar if not a little better.  Then do it for the SNES (reverb off, please).

Sapphire in '95, which even toped anything on any 16-bitter at that time

Sapphire is a definite showpiece graphically, but I vigorously disagree with that statement.

[Black Tiger]

That is definitely a nice sound sample!  But of course that one sound sample is bigger than all but 1 HuCard in existence.  Now do it for the Genesis as well.  Should be similar if not a little better.  Then do it for the SNES (reverb off, please).

Can you turn off the reverb on SNES sound?

Sapphire in '95, which even toped anything on any 16-bitter at that time

Sapphire is a definite showpiece graphically, but I vigorously disagree with that statement.

So do I. I find many other PCE games much more impressive. Not that Sapphire isn't nice in its own way.

[Keranu]

( A nice PCE sample. Play it on the real hardware or current medanfen. )

Wow, that's amazing!

[Tatsujin]

That is definitely a nice sound sample!  But of course that one sound sample is bigger than all but 1 HuCard in existence.  Now do it for the Genesis as well.  Should be similar if not a little better.  Then do it for the SNES (reverb off, please).

Can you turn off the reverb on SNES sound?

Sapphire in '95, which even toped anything on any 16-bitter at that time

Sapphire is a definite showpiece graphically, but I vigorously disagree with that statement.

So do I. I find many other PCE games much more impressive. Not that Sapphire isn't nice in its own way.

i do not talk about its style etc. that's everyones own desicion what he likes. but technical wise it is the monster and it shows almost anything 2D related possible on a 16-bitter in almost perfection.

if people argue with donkey kong on a SFC/SNES how much the hardware was overused at that time, so I can counter argue that this was happening on the PCE as well, and at that time. the PCE wasn't pushed to its limit in '92 or '93, no.

and that the PCE was pushed over its limit may times isn't a secret at all.

[Joe Redifer]

Games like Donkey Kong Country, Sapphire, Blazing Star, etc which use prerendered video as the basis for their graphics never really impress me as much as they impress other people.  The only thing the system is doing is showing new frames of animation.  Yeah, that's cool, but I am just not a fan of the prerendered look.  Granted, there are some exceptions.  Yes, Sapphire has some nice multi-layers here and there as well as some cool vertical scaling of the BG.  I like that.  But I'm pretty sure I've seen the Turbo do better.

Also, regarding Lunar.  I never really liked that chick's singing voice.  Probably because it's not a very good singing voice and it's the only one Vic ever used as far as I can tell (plus his lyrics often suck).  That's not a knock against the quality of the sample, though.  Just against the chick.

[Tatsujin]

same here. i do not like sapphire for its pre-render blah, but for its impressive exposure of anything. the argue that a donky kong c. pushes the SFC to its max, isn't a statement by myself, but from a lot of people out there, which is obviously wrong. but in the case of sapphire it really pushes the hardware, and not too little. concerned to the fact it's the same ol' hardware from '87 (cpu usage, calculation etc.)

[Black Tiger]

That is definitely a nice sound sample!  But of course that one sound sample is as big or bigger than all but 1 HuCard in existence.

Didn't Tales of Symphonia on Super Famicom use 16 megs for voice, on top of what was only a 32-meg game?

Once again, the size of published HuCards is irrelevant since the CD format took off early on.

This is another good example of how developers weren't as concerned with pushing the hardware for PCE games as developers were for the 2 sides of the console war.