Author Topic: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?  (Read 1294 times)

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2007, 02:05:26 PM »
I didn't even know there was an OSX version of Magic Engine...

Anyway, about command lines and front ends. Although Joe Redifer is being his usual a$$hole self about this, he is, at the same time, absolutely correct. Why any command line interface exists anywhere in life is beyond me. Its just...staggering to think that a person would write something as complex as an emulator, something I have only the vaguest understanding of, and the clothe it in a pretentious layer of L337-ness like a command line interface so that %99 of the world will never even be able to use it. WTF is the point in this? A front-end is barely more difficult to make than a functional web page. The program is %99 done, just do the last little bit so that it will actually work.

I don't have to be a programmer to know that not having a GUI is f*cking stupid. I don't know anything about the world of high rolling corporate finance, but I'm sure that the Ford Motor Company is run by a bunch of very well educated retards if it just keeps losing money and laying off people for decades in a row. Something is wrong. I don't know what it is, but the evidence is clear.

The idea that I'm a dumb-ass because I don't like having a readme open at the same time as a program, alt-tab-ing over and over because I need to refer to it every single time I do any single thing, or because I can't remember how to spell a word that isn't actually a word, or because I forgot the exact string syntax I need, is, frankly, a bunch of crap.

You guys are probably around my age (31) so you should've grown up around a command prompt? Did you use a MAC all your life?

I'm 30 years old. I first got online with a Saturn Netlink and got my first computer around 2000. It came with Windows 98.

There were computers at my schools growing up that allowed us to type, but thats about it. Between grades 3 - 12, there were maybe four times we got to use them. My elementary school had one Apple IIgs, which I got to try King's Quest on once or twice.

In grade 8 I took "Typewriting 8".
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

Keranu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9054
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2007, 02:30:14 PM »
I had to use command line often on my Tandy 1000 back in the day so I could boot up DOS games.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Turbo D

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3989
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2007, 02:38:00 PM »
I had to use command line to run pear pc. I would like to learn more, but I don't know where to go to  :-k

nat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7085
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2007, 03:52:58 PM »
I started using computers in the '80s with my parents Kaypro 4. For those who aren't familiar with something that oldschool, it was very popular "portable" (it weighed like 40 pounds) computer produced in the early 80's by a now-defunct company. It ran an operating system called CP/M which was sort of a precursor to DOS although the two existed side by side for a couple years before DOS became the OS of choice. The CPU was the almighty Z-80! This was all cutting edge technology in 1985.

The point I want to make is that everything everyone is complaining about here is totally valid. This isn't 1985 anymore, it's 2007. Command lines aren't used to interact with the OS in 2007, GUIs are. In 1985 anyone who used a computer knew how to operate from a command line. The same can't be said today. People like Black Tiger and also anyone in a younger generation don't know shit about a command line. I do, but that's only because I started using computers in 1985 and GUIs didn't exist outside a few very small novelty markets (the archaic Macintosh Plus hadn't even been released yet, the Apple II was still Apple's top selling machine). But just because I know how to use an obsolete interface doesn't mean I think modern programs should be designed to utilize it.

The argument that Mednafen is a multi-platform app is irrelevant. GUIs exist for virtually every OS in 2007, certainly every OS that Mednafen has been ported to. X Windows/X11/what-have-you has existed for probably around 20 years or more. Nobody should be releasing command line applications/utilities to the general public in 2007, save perhaps for "root-level" system utilities used by system and network administrators. And even that is debatable at this point. Especially ones that take 346 precise command line arguments to function properly.

Coding a simple GUI would be the easiest part of programming an emulator. Assuming that everyone who will be using your program not only knows about, but is eager to use the command line is not a very logical assumption these days.

Personally, I will probably not ever do much with Mednafen unless someone gets with the program and writes a modern interface for it. It's just too big of a f*cking hassle.

esteban

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24063
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2007, 04:23:33 PM »
I don't think anyone cares, but here goes:

School is where I spent the most time using computers back in the day.

My grade school gave the "older" PET computers to the fifth-graders, which is where I was introduced to computers. "Lemonade Stand" was the best thing, I loved it. I don't remember many of the other games... but there was an unlicensed "E.T." math game where you extended / retracted ET's head in order to eat the correct answer to math equations. It was actually a pretty awesome arcade / action game, at least by edutainment standards circa 1984. I think it was the class' favorite game.

All of the Commodore PET software = cassettes and had long load times.

In 6th grade we were graced with a C-64 and we were finally allowed to play some games purely for entertainment (i.e. Epyx Winter Games). Plus, lots of my friends had C-64 and games. :)

Middle School: Apple II
High School: IIgs (woo hoo, 3 1/2" floppies! Cutting-edge technology!)
  |    | 

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2007, 04:42:33 PM »
Quote from: esteban

I don't think anyone cares, but here goes:


Actually, seeing what everyone used to use is quite interesting to me.  :)

nat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7085
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2007, 04:54:32 PM »
My school district was too poor to afford "real" Apple IIs so we had those f*cking lame Franklin clones. I think they sold those for one year in, like, 1984 before Apple filed a lawsuit for copyright infringement and put them out of business.

I think our district must have been the only one in the country like that. Everyone I've ever spoken with since then had actual Apple IIs in the classroom.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 04:57:05 PM by nat »

malducci

  • Guest
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2007, 05:13:44 PM »
I started using computers in the '80s with my parents Kaypro 4. For those who aren't familiar with something that oldschool, it was very popular "portable" (it weighed like 40 pounds) computer produced in the early 80's by a now-defunct company. It ran an operating system called CP/M which was sort of a precursor to DOS although the two existed side by side for a couple years before DOS became the OS of choice. The CPU was the almighty Z-80! This was all cutting edge technology in 1985.

The point I want to make is that everything everyone is complaining about here is totally valid. This isn't 1985 anymore, it's 2007. Command lines aren't used to interact with the OS in 2007, GUIs are. In 1985 anyone who used a computer knew how to operate from a command line. The same can't be said today. People like Black Tiger and also anyone in a younger generation don't know shit about a command line. I do, but that's only because I started using computers in 1985 and GUIs didn't exist outside a few very small novelty markets (the archaic Macintosh Plus hadn't even been released yet, the Apple II was still Apple's top selling machine). But just because I know how to use an obsolete interface doesn't mean I think modern programs should be designed to utilize it.

The argument that Mednafen is a multi-platform app is irrelevant. GUIs exist for virtually every OS in 2007, certainly every OS that Mednafen has been ported to. X Windows/X11/what-have-you has existed for probably around 20 years or more. Nobody should be releasing command line applications/utilities to the general public in 2007, save perhaps for "root-level" system utilities used by system and network administrators. And even that is debatable at this point. Especially ones that take 346 precise command line arguments to function properly.

Coding a simple GUI would be the easiest part of programming an emulator. Assuming that everyone who will be using your program not only knows about, but is eager to use the command line is not a very logical assumption these days.

Personally, I will probably not ever do much with Mednafen unless someone gets with the program and writes a modern interface for it. It's just too big of a f*cking hassle.

You used CP/M? That's classic  :D

(to no one specific or to most - whatever fits)

 If people don't want to use mednafen because it doesn't have a GUI - their loss. She didn't write for GUI huggers. She wrote it for linux and made the source cross compatible. She only offers the win32 binary as a courtesy for windows users. If someone wants to make a GUI for it or a frontend (separate program) then so be it, but it's not her responsibility or duty to provide it when all the necessary requirements to run the emulator are there.

 Anyone realized MAME is the same way? The official MAME team doesn't put out the platform specific builds like MAME32 (which I sure is what you guys run for PC). It's not the authors/team responsibility to create the GUI package for each platform, they leave that up to other people who want to add such features (such as MAME32 guys). Mednafen is no different. You want a GUI for mednafen or other open source GUI-less apps, go solicit some windows or mac programmers.
 
 And on the other side of the argument, the command line shell isn't archaic or dead, it's just an alternate interface to an operating systems (Apple happens to hide it for its OS, but it's there) and application. It has a purpose and a function. It may not serve the needs for most, but saying it's stupid or invalid or only leet programmers use it, or in this day and age all apps should be GUI drive, it just ignorant. Not everyone program needs dynamic interface of a GUI system. I'm sure as hell not going to go out of my way to setup a GUI for a general app that doesn't need it. Why would I want the overhead of opening an app, going to "file", "open", find the file, enter in my parameters in the appropriate boxes - when I could just type "insert somefile.ext sourcefile.ext $9000" or "extract_script source.iso dest.txt $1E0800" or whatever. I'm usually using multiple apps in the same directory I'm working in. And when I'm not in the command prompt, dragging and dropping onto a batch file works just fine.


Also, for you guys who don't run mednafen because it's console app... I don't even enter in the command prompt mode to run my games with it. I've associated mednafen with the file types that I want to run with it. I just double click the CUE file for the CD game I want to run and it runs. Same with roms - pce, gb, nes, ws (wonder swan / color),  etc. Mednafen has a config file that holds all the settings. There's no need to run the emulator with the same option commands everytime. I already have the gampad, scanline, res, and such setup. Nothing else to do but run the game. So for me, I see no need for a GUI with it. It's not like it's a web browser or word processor.


Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2007, 07:07:52 PM »
I wonder what drugs this chick was on when she named the damn thing.

Turbo D

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3989
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2007, 08:07:47 PM »
probably mdma, all chicks like e  :wink:

SignOfZeta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8497
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2007, 12:18:50 AM »
Quote from: malducci

 If people don't want to use mednafen because it doesn't have a GUI - their loss. She didn't write for GUI huggers.

Translation: "GUI huggers"="users".

Quote
Anyone realized MAME is the same way?

But do you realize that MAME...you know...actually works? If Mednafen had a reliable frontend like MAME this thread wouldn't exists. On a related note, I can only imagine how super fun it would be to configure MAME preferences from a command line...

Quote
And on the other side of the argument, the command line shell isn't archaic or dead,

Yeah, just like Latin.

Quote
Why would I want the overhead of opening an app, going to "file", "open", find the file, enter in my parameters in the appropriate boxes - when I could just type "insert somefile.ext sourcefile.ext $9000" or "extract_script source.iso dest.txt $1E0800" or whatever.

Did you seriously just type that? WTF does "extract_script source.iso dest.txt $1E0800" mean?

Quote
Also, for you guys who don't run mednafen because it's console app... I don't even enter in the command prompt mode to run my games with it. I've associated mednafen with the file types that I want to run with it. I just double click the CUE file for the CD game I want to run and it runs. Same with roms - pce, gb, nes, ws (wonder swan / color),  etc. Mednafen has a config file that holds all the settings. There's no need to run the emulator with the same option commands everytime. I already have the gampad, scanline, res, and such setup. Nothing else to do but run the game. So for me, I see no need for a GUI with it. It's not like it's a web browser or word processor.

I don't know. Now it sounds like you are just being a pussy or something. Associating a file type? That sounds like a GUI sympathizer's way of doing things.


Basically when this person wants the userbase of Mednafen to multiply by a factor of ten, she'll put a GUI on it, or work with someone to make a Carbon version of it, or something along those lines. Until then %90 of the people that download it will just delete it a few hours later which is a sad waste, IMO. I'd like to check it out, and so would a lot of others.

spenoza

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2751
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2007, 02:32:30 AM »
I agree that the author has only the obligation to program what she wants to program, but that doesn't, and shouldn't, curtail our right to ask for a GUI. See, a command line can be great for efficient use for those well-versed in it, but it has a rather low learnability quotient and people who don't use it regularly have increased problems with it. From a usability perspective a command line is an expert-only tool.

Not only that but most Windows users don't know what options a cfg file will accept. How do I know how the cfg files wants me to represent a gamepad button press? And considering half the time the button labels are different from how Windows wants to interpret them, that only complicates things. Furthermore, in today's day of huge hard drives and cluttered file collections with long paths and spaces in path names, trying to open a file from a particular location, particularly one you don't use regularly, is a crap shoot which involves lots of backtracking.

Basically, if you release software to the world and really expect anyone to use it you do have to put in the work to create a usable GUI. If you release it command line only a few people will pick it up but you really exclude a vast potential user base, and having a larger user base is a great way to solicit improvements and get bug reports.

CMD and GUI snobs just need to get over each other and realize there's room in the world for both of us.
<a href="http://www.pcedaisakusen.net/2/34/103/show-collection.htm" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">My meager PC Engine Collection so far.</a><br><a href="https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">PC Engine Software Bible</a><br><a href="http://www.racketboy.com/forum/" c

esteban

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24063
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2007, 02:33:55 AM »
My school district was too poor to afford "real" Apple IIs so we had those f*cking lame Franklin clones. I think they sold those for one year in, like, 1984 before Apple filed a lawsuit for copyright infringement and put them out of business.

I think our district must have been the only one in the country like that. Everyone I've ever spoken with since then had actual Apple IIs in the classroom.
Well, I used a huge Franklin clone quite a bit at a local church. The minister had a genuine Apple in his house and Franklin(s) for the congregation. I remember playing with ELIZA (the well-known psychotherapy thing) and Lode Runner. Lode Runner rules, and the Apple II version still holds its own.

As a young kid, though, I didn't really understand that Franklin was simply an Apple clone. I thought Franklin was an obscure, proprietary system unto itself. Plus, Franklin made those handheld Bibles and Dictionaries, which further confused me.
  |    | 

esteban

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24063
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2007, 03:40:14 AM »
Ha! I was going to avoid the mednafan discussion, but all the whiny-ass comments are really annoying.

Mednafen is no different. You want a GUI for mednafen or other open source GUI-less apps, go solicit some windows or mac programmers.
Exactly. Thank you.

All of the whiners complaining about the lack of a GUI for mednafan sound like a bunch of spoiled "gimmee gimmee gimmee" children. Yeah, I'm being overly harsh for dramatic effect, but I really don't understand why folks are placing the blame on all the wrong people. Why blame the author of mednafan for the failings of the greater TG-16 / PC-community.

Plus, it should go without saying that there is only so much work that a person can do. Time is a limited resource. Also, even if time wasn't limited, the author of mednafan might not have any desire or derive any satisfaction from the front-end, so her time is best spent on the back-end.
  |    | 

Turbo D

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3989
Re: Best Turbo emulator with CD support?
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2007, 04:57:18 AM »
I don't mind using command line progs like mednafen, but I prefer gui because of the convenience factor. I only use emulators to take screen shots and play games I don't own, all the real gaming happens on real hardware  8)