Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate

[Tatsujin]

so waht you mean, as long the different planes (layers) don't overlap each other, there is no need to use sprites to fake multi-layer scrolling? and for WoT only where the back-layers overlaps, the use of sprites makes sense.

[awack]

One of the pc engine games that uses a lot of sprites for parallax scrolling is Dracula x.
here is an example.

[Gentlegamer]

I would never go so far as to make a statement putting Genesis graphics below that of the TG-16. Each of the 16-bitters of that generation, Genesis, TG-16, and SNES, had different capabilities, and each was fantastic. That was probably one of the best, if not the best, generations in video game history.

To me, a more common statement is that the Genesis outshined the TG-16 in every technical category, which is patently false. The TG-16 was readily capable of visuals matching or surpassing the Genesis, taken on a game by game basis. That said, some games looked like late generation NES games with a better color palette (which in itself is not a dig, as those NES games themselves looked pretty darn good, even compared to 16-bit).

Any crusade to show that any console was objectively superior is a fruitless and pointless enterprise, especially comparing those in the 16-bit era.

[SNKNostalgia]

The Neo Geo cannot do perspective (like SNES mode 7)

The Neo-Geo can indeed do perspective (just not rotation) by changing the scaling of its BG [sprites] each scanline -- just like the SNES and GBA did it.  The title screen to Sengoku Denshou 2 does this in a limited fashion.  Probably the main thing limiting its use in things like driving games is the complete lack of rotation.

Yes, the Neo-Geo is a strange beast.  It has one background plane, used for title screens, displays, and the road in Riding Hero, and all the rest are sprites -- a whole friggin' lot of them.  That's like having a hundred background layers, so I consider that pretty powerful.

Agree!!!!

http://www.emu-zone.org/www3/host/emugif/picture0320/kof97/stage/04.gif

http://www.emu-zone.org/www3/host/emugif/picture0320/garou/stage/13_1.gif

http://www.emu-zone.org/www3/host/emugif/picture0320/kof95/stage/08.gif

Other games like Last Blade and Art of Fighting would be nice to show, but no scaling in .gif. Same thing with the ones posted by not scrolling left and right, but you get the idea.

[Tatsujin]

the only one real exiting thing is, that the PCE was released more than a year earlier than the MD and almost 3 years before the SFC came out. considering this fact, the PC Engine was really a big step ahead and astonishing little piece of hardware back then! if you open a PCE there is 96% designed in advanced SMD technology, which makes it such compact and you think you openend something designed in the middle 90s. if you open a MD, you think you opened an alarm-clock from the mid 80s.

[Black Tiger]

To me, a more common statement is that the Genesis outshined the TG-16 in every technical category, which is patently false. The TG-16 was readily capable of visuals matching or surpassing the Genesis, taken on a game by game basis. That said, some games looked like late generation NES games with a better color palette (which in itself is not a dig, as those NES games themselves looked pretty darn good, even compared to 16-bit).

There are lots of games on Genesis and SNES that look like NES games.

[ccovell]

I've probably written this before, but at the time the PCE came out (1987), a lot of the development tools for home systems were focussed on the Famicom: 8-bit CPU, small sprites, simple tiles, etc.  And so I think a lot of early PCE games (let's say the ones not by Hudson's best teams) really lacked powerful graphics to distinguish them from Famicom games at the time.  It took most companies until they developed PCE-specific tools (map editors, better graphic editors) before stunning games started to get made.  Early in the PCE's life, we saw plenty of NES-alikes and Japanese PC conversions.

The Mega Drive, on the other hand, had a lot of developers experienced with arcade graphics and had arcade (or X68000) devkits, so I think the arcade quality of many games was definitely there even early in the MD's life.

When I look at PCE ads from 1987-88, I feel a sense of disgust with the game lineups of most companies... 

[Tatsujin]

but then, something strange happened..

The CDROM attachments (all of them) include a new ADPCM soundchip and some extra RAM for playing sound samples. This RAM is not the same as normal PCE RAM, and was designed to be used with the new soundchip exclusively. Through clever programming the game Monster Lair used this RAM to store extra sprite animation, essentially bypassing the RAM limitations of the PCE and System Card. It's probably that this is the first and possibly only time that new sound hardware increased graphic quality. Interestingly this affected emulation as well, as Monster Lair suddenly looked better when this soundchip was accurately emulated.

quite interessting how to use hardware, isn't it?^^

[_joshuaTurbo]

Ah this damn thread again!  LOL

I always thought the Genesissy put way too much stock in competing with the SNES(Which it SO couldn't), while the TG16 went in a whole different direction.

I personally prefer the TurboGrafx graphics over the genesis.

But just for the record I love all things 16-bit!  The Genny, Snessy, and TG16 was truly the greatest time in gaming!

TS

[OldTurboBastard]

But regardless, I don't understand how you can point out how impressive Lords of Thunder is for layered graphics in one sentence and in the next sentence say that Altered Beast and Strider prove that the PC Engine can't do them.

Then why did'nt they port over parrallax in those games? Probably because the system can't handle having to emulate true parallax while providing the rest of the game action. It works well in LOT and other turbo original games bacause because they could program around the limitation using fairly simple second layers, which often morph back into one layer when the system could not pull off the mirage any more.

...if they could've they would've is all i'm saying. And yes maybe "they couldve if they used nifty programming and this and that" but the fact is they did'nt because it was not easy for the turbo to pull off

[nat]

But regardless, I don't understand how you can point out how impressive Lords of Thunder is for layered graphics in one sentence and in the next sentence say that Altered Beast and Strider prove that the PC Engine can't do them.

Then why did'nt they port over parrallax in those games?

In the case of Altered Beast, it was because there was no parallax to port. As I stated in another thread, the parallax was added specifically for the Genesis version. The Turbo version was not a port of the Genesis version, it was a port of the arcade. The arcade did not have any parallax.

...if they could've they would've is all i'm saying. And yes maybe "they couldve if they used nifty programming and this and that" but the fact is they did'nt because it was not easy for the turbo to pull off

Perhaps not as easy to program, but it's still possible. We've seen it in tons of games on the system (maybe you haven't). So what it really boils down to is lazy or incompetent programmers.

[esteban]

Ha! I'm much more concerned about character design (sprite design) and the graphics used for the stage/background when it comes to aesthetics.

All this attention lavished upon parallax scrolling is too much!

Don't get me wrong: I love parallax, but I find myself disappointed with the artistic vision of a game much more often than I lament the "lack of parallax" (or similar technicality). In fact, I think I can flip this discussion around and argue that parallax was a LAZY SHORTCUT to add superficial eye candy to most games, whereas it would have been much more exciting (and impressive) to see bold, daring artistic vision.

Or, if it is too much to ask for pioneering art design, we deserved to have more inspired and creative art directors for video games! Then, at least, we would have seen more variety in our games instead of the same rehashed, generic stuff ad nauseam.

For example, let's take JJ & Jeff:
1. I always felt the game looked flat, the backgrounds and stage design is anemic and sparse. Adding parallax would have been a "quick-n-easy" way to make the game more appealing, visually, IMO.
2. But, actually, I would happily forgo parallax in JJ & Jeff if the artistic designer had had a more creative / inspired vision for the game.
3. I like JJ & Jeff. I guess I lust for a sequel to the game. And don't forget to give me some more eye candy, if only for some cheap thrills!

[Keranu]

I've probably written this before, but at the time the PCE came out (1987), a lot of the development tools for home systems were focussed on the Famicom: 8-bit CPU, small sprites, simple tiles, etc.  And so I think a lot of early PCE games (let's say the ones not by Hudson's best teams) really lacked powerful graphics to distinguish them from Famicom games at the time.  It took most companies until they developed PCE-specific tools (map editors, better graphic editors) before stunning games started to get made.  Early in the PCE's life, we saw plenty of NES-alikes and Japanese PC conversions.

The Mega Drive, on the other hand, had a lot of developers experienced with arcade graphics and had arcade (or X68000) devkits, so I think the arcade quality of many games was definitely there even early in the MD's life.

When I look at PCE ads from 1987-88, I feel a sense of disgust with the game lineups of most companies... 

Awesome, thanks for the sweet info!

[OldTurboBastard]

[quote author=esteban link=topic=3663.msg54670#msg54670
For example, let's take JJ & Jeff:
1. I always felt the game looked flat, the backgrounds and stage design is anemic and sparse. Adding parallax would have been a "quick-n-easy" way to make the game more appealing, visually, IMO.
2. But, actually, I would happily forgo parallax in JJ & Jeff if the artistic designer had had a more creative / inspired vision for the game.
3. I like JJ & Jeff. I guess I lust for a sequel to the game. And don't forget to give me some more eye candy, if only for some cheap thrills!
[/quote]

1. Agreed, and i'll take it. better more appealling even if it is a simple and easy way, as it was for the genesis developers.
2. I'll agree with this too. But they did'nt cause it's not easy to pull off on the turbo so we are left with boring backgrounds that could've been helped by a little parallax
3. I had fun with this one back in the day too

As for too much attention being paid to parallax, I disagree, it's a pretty big upgrade over flat boring backgrounds and is even used in some genesis games to create gigantic boss characters without using up onscreen sprites. I'd say it's right up there with the mode 7 effects on the SNES as far as importance goes.

It's the only area between the two consoles where the PC engine can't come close to the Genesis or vice cersa. The rest is pretty debateable, as we have seen in this thread.

[Turbo D]

the pcengine has lots of games with good parallax, you just haven't played any of them