Author Topic: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate  (Read 13811 times)

Keranu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9054
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #135 on: September 14, 2007, 06:15:25 PM »
Looks like it all comes down to people's preference in hand drawn visuals or technical visuals.

I myself prefer the former, which is why I generally prefer the Turbo's graphics over Genesis. But not only that though, I think the Turbo did just as good of a job showing off parallax as Genesis did, so that's just a bonus for me.

Also when people say it required developers more work and time to create parallax for the Turbo than it does for the Genesis, I think the same can be said about the Genesis in terms of color. When you're limited to only 32 colors per background and sprite layer, that's a real killer as a graphic artist in the 16-bit era. I can only imagine how frustrating it would be to draw a complex stage and find out that you have to sacriface some colors off some sprites or tiles because it exceeds the limit  ](*,) . I'm a graphic artist myself, so naturally I prefer the Turbo's color advantage over Genesis' parallax advantage, but perhaps I would say the opposite if I was a programmer.

Really, I think any game for either system would handle extremely well on the other. If you were to port a parallax heavy Genesis game or something to the Turbo, you might miss a layer or two of parallax and if you were to port a color heavy Turbo game to the Genesis, the colors might look a little drab.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Turbo D

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3989
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #136 on: September 14, 2007, 06:24:17 PM »
well said  :)

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #137 on: September 14, 2007, 07:15:36 PM »
I pretty much agree with Keranu.  I am a big fan of smooth color gradients.  I'm not sure why I don't find most SNES games appealing.  I guess I like detail in my color gradients, like on Rayxanber 3.  Lookeee nice!  I also like the use of shading and whatnot since I myself am a super-awesome artist.  However I am also impressed with depth, animation and motion so parallax is very important to me as is color and detail.  Seeing the scrolling in the SMS Choplifter was a major turning point in my life artistically.  I started noticing depth and how things behaved as I moved much, much more.  Parallax just for the sake of parallax adds next to nothing, but it can help make a game look cool.  The first time I played the arcade version of Atomic Robo Kid I was blown away by 3 independent BGs.  It just looked so darn cool and detailed as a result.  Neither the Turbo or the Genesis versions match it.  Crap game, though.

sunteam_paul

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4732
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #138 on: September 15, 2007, 03:04:30 AM »
Can you name a single game on the Genesis that could not be done on the Engine? 


I can!

Try this:
Or this:
And even this:
The PC Engine Software Bible
Quote from: Tatsujin
I just felt in a hole!

Michael Helgeson

  • Guest
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #139 on: September 15, 2007, 03:42:58 AM »
I can!
And even this:



Yea,only the might of the MegaDrive can do a giant cock monster boss.
Also,Cotton on Duo has a similar background effect on one of its stages,but not to the same degree.
It shows it on this video:
I think the Pc-Engine,at least with cd as a fall back,could have done a Earthworm Jim.
The Pc-Engine already proved it can do nicely animated sprites.
Sonic 2,yea I will give you that for sure,but at the same stroke I have yet to see anything as nice looking as Bonk 2-3,or Rayxanber 3 on MegaDrive. But also,I like Devil Crash visually more on MegaDrive. Half and half,def depends on the game being presented and your personal preference.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 04:00:35 AM by Michael Helgeson »

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #140 on: September 15, 2007, 06:25:33 AM »
I pretty much agree with Keranu.  I am a big fan of smooth color gradients.  I'm not sure why I don't find most SNES games appealing.  I guess I like detail in my color gradients, like on Rayxanber 3.  Lookeee nice!  I also like the use of shading and whatnot since I myself am a super-awesome artist.  However I am also impressed with depth, animation and motion so parallax is very important to me as is color and detail.  Seeing the scrolling in the SMS Choplifter was a major turning point in my life artistically.  I started noticing depth and how things behaved as I moved much, much more.  Parallax just for the sake of parallax adds next to nothing, but it can help make a game look cool.  The first time I played the arcade version of Atomic Robo Kid I was blown away by 3 independent BGs.  It just looked so darn cool and detailed as a result.  Neither the Turbo or the Genesis versions match it.  Crap game, though.


Many SNES games look weird to me as well. Too often, drab colors are used, particularly on sprites. I'm guessing that it has something to do with the palettes to choose from, because even some cartoony games have cool or warm/pastel colored characters that look out of place. I think that the PCE's color appears so vibrant because it has a good set of colors for its limited display(compared to modern technology).

An overall palette of like 32000 colors can be put to good use in an image of hundreds or more colors. But when you're working with objects that are shaded with a few colors at a time, you'd need to pick the best ones to stand out. Its no good having 50 colors of a particular shade of blue if you have to pick one near either end plus one in the middle for best results. When you can only put around 100 colors on screen in a video game, vibrant ones look best since they stand out.

I think that the Genesis's on screen color limit isn't much of a handy cap, since 40 colors makes a really nice image. I think that its sub palettes are more of a bottle neck. Many ports feature unusually colored sprites or bg sections, even though the games won't be pushing much past the 40 color mark. It doesn't come into play so much in original Genesis games, which are taylor made for the Genesis' palettes and look as good as colorful games on SNES and PCE.



I agree that parallax should only be put to good use. Lots of games in arcade or 16-bit consoles have "flat" sections in the middle of parallax heavy games that look just fine, because extra scrolling wasn't necessary in those areas.

Personally, I didn't like the over use of h-sync scrolling in Air Zonk when I first played it. Much of it looks cool, but much of it looks too gimmicky. Kinda like Coryoon's tunnel vision. Although I don't think that Dead Moon is the best looking game around, it did a much better job shamelessly exploiting that effect.



As for Sonic on PC Engine. Aside from the different ways I can think of to keep some bg scrolling intact or improved, even a completely flat bg version would look very cool taylor made for the PCE, shaded with vibrant tiles like the nicer parts of Knuckles Chatotix-



If anything, anyone doing a PCE Sonic or tech demo should be working with tiles from that game.



Quote
Also when people say it required developers more work and time to create parallax for the Turbo than it does for the Genesis, I think the same can be said about the Genesis in terms of color. When you're limited to only 32 colors per background and sprite layer, that's a real killer as a graphic artist in the 16-bit era.


I think that the dithering that developers did in later Genesis games must've been a lot of work and very time consuming. Although many people use it as a dig at the Genesis, I like good use of dithering. Its only the games with large two tone sections dithered to shit that look ugly.



The SGX was like Sega's 32X, only it was an entire system unto itself.  A similar analogy might be made that the Genesis can play SMS games, but the Genesis was an entirely new platform.  The SGX wasn't.  It was a PCE with an extra background and some more memory.  Not much else.  It would have been better as a System Card (if possible).  The SGX, like the 32X, was a mistake.  There was no reason for it to exist other than for us collectors and geeks to awe in how awesome it is even if it only had a handful of games.


Although its not the same kind of hardware upgrade, I think of the Arcade Card as the PC Engine's equivalent of the 32X, since it was new format with a few great games that was the victim of the emerging of the next gen and we never got to see its full potential.



Malducci: I agree that they should've incorporated the SuperGrafx hardware when they made the Duo. Hudson and NEC could continue to pump out some decent SGX games until the Duo sales numbers were high enough to convince other developers to give it a try.

I think that if the SGX was in the Duo and Hudson made a few quality SGX CD games, then it wouldn't take long for others to at least give SGX CD development a try. We probably would've seen a bunch more bicompatible games too. I think that even if NEC still did a shitty port of Strider, it'd be cool to see how it would turn out as a SGX ACD game. :)



haha...yeah, me too, when i first started playing the turo grafx back in 1990 i didnt think it could do any type of parallax scrolling until i started playing the same turbo games again in 2001, now if i had played something like rondo or legend of xanadu back then i damn well would have noticed parallax srolling.


I actually had the opposite experience. Back in the day, if a game made good use of parallax like Drac X, it was cool. But otherwise, I didn't think much of the odd scrolling bg effect. But today everything stands out.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 06:55:44 AM by Black Tiger »
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

handygrafx

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #141 on: September 15, 2007, 07:35:04 AM »
parallax scrolling seems to be a big part of the discussion in this and similar threads, and for good reason, it looks awesome when done right.    the thing is, even the Famicom/NES pulled off parallax scrolling in some games. Metalstorm and Ninja Gaiden 3 are prime examples. 

PC-Engine/TurboGrafx-16  R-Type has some parallax in some levels.  notably the 5th level


yet it's missing in the biological 2nd level.



 the arcade had very basic looking parallax scolling in the that level, nothing fancy. just the blue background behind the biological containers and crustations on the top & bottem.  but in the PCE/TG16  R-Type everything is on one  plane.   


Now if you've played the Sharp X68000 computer version of R-Type, which is both better and worse than the TG16 version, you'd notice the parallax is there in the 2nd level and where ever the arcade had it. with that said,  it's not that the PCE/TG16 couldn't handle that parallax, since of course we all know the machine can be forced to do it.  I think it was just a matter of programmer choice, or time/budget since PCE R-Type was done in early-mid 1988, done in two parts, then merged onto a single HuCard for release on TG16 in 1989.   

 IIRC the later Irem-developed R-Type Complete CD  also lacked parallax scrolling in the 2nd level.

parallax scrolling in general is interesting. on machines that only have one background layer in hardware, when parallax scrolling is done, we typically only 1 (maybe 2) layers of scrolling.

on machines that have 2 or more background layers, we often see multipul layers of parallax scrolling done.

there are exceptions to this rule though. the Amiga. it didn't have any hardware scrolling background layers, yet in games like Shadow of the Beast and Lionheart programmers achived many (more than 3-4) layers.

I'm trying to think of any games in the PCE family (any format) that use many layers. never played Shadow of the Beast on Duo, maybe there's a youtube vid of it.

Keranu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9054
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #142 on: September 15, 2007, 08:09:26 AM »
I pretty much agree with Keranu.  I am a big fan of smooth color gradients.  I'm not sure why I don't find most SNES games appealing.  I guess I like detail in my color gradients, like on Rayxanber 3.  Lookeee nice!  I also like the use of shading and whatnot since I myself am a super-awesome artist.
Agreed. I'm not fond of the faded look a lot of SNES games have, but some games look outstanding (Secret of Mana, FFVI, Chrono Trigger, though some parts in those games still have that faded look). Rayxamber III is an awesome example of well done shading.

Quote from: Joe Redifer
However I am also impressed with depth, animation and motion so parallax is very important to me as is color and detail.  Seeing the scrolling in the SMS Choplifter was a major turning point in my life artistically.  I started noticing depth and how things behaved as I moved much, much more.  Parallax just for the sake of parallax adds next to nothing, but it can help make a game look cool.  The first time I played the arcade version of Atomic Robo Kid I was blown away by 3 independent BGs.  It just looked so darn cool and detailed as a result.  Neither the Turbo or the Genesis versions match it.
Don't get me wrong, I love all of those things as well. But for me, it's the actual art itself that really sells to me and it's something I've admired of Turbo games ever since I got into it.

Quote from: Joe, come in, Joe
Crap game, though.
NOT crap game! Why does everyone hate that game!?  ](*,)

Quote from: Black_Tiger
I think that the Genesis's on screen color limit isn't much of a handy cap, since 40 colors makes a really nice image. I think that its sub palettes are more of a bottle neck. Many ports feature unusually colored sprites or bg sections, even though the games won't be pushing much past the 40 color mark. It doesn't come into play so much in original Genesis games, which are taylor made for the Genesis' palettes and look as good as colorful games on SNES and PCE.
I think some people misunderstand the whole "colors on screen" craze. Over the years, I've learned that it's not so much the actual amount of colors on screen, it's the color limitation. If a Genesis game has 40 colors on screen, a lot of colors probably had to have been reused for other things which might throw off the shading of something (like if there was a sprite that was supposed to have three shades of brown, it might have to swap a shade with a green that's being used). For Turbo games though, there is practically no need to worry about limitations except the actual 16 colors per sprite/tile limit, like the other 16-bit systems.

Quote from: Black_Panther
I think that the dithering that developers did in later Genesis games must've been a lot of work and very time consuming. Although many people use it as a dig at the Genesis, I like good use of dithering. Its only the games with large two tone sections dithered to shit that look ugly.
I agree, I think dithering can be put to great use. Of course like anything overdone, it sucks.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

malducci

  • Guest
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #143 on: September 15, 2007, 08:41:06 AM »
Quote from: Black Tiger
I think that the Genesis's on screen color limit isn't much of a handy cap, since 40 colors makes a really nice image. I think that its sub palettes are more of a bottle neck. Many ports feature unusually colored sprites or bg sections, even though the games won't be pushing much past the 40 color mark. It doesn't come into play so much in original Genesis games, which are taylor made for the Genesis' palettes and look as good as colorful games on SNES and PCE.

I agree. If it were a traditional bitmap style display, 64 colors would be very flexable. But that's misleading on tile based system. The Genesis having only 4 palettes of 15 colors (16th color is transparent BG color). Not 4 for BG and 4 for sprites, but 4 for BG and Sprites. For instance a sprite couldn't have 8 colors from one palette and 4 colors from another palette. You run out of packs of colors pretty quickly (on trick is to overlay one sprite onto another to make up for some the colors the first sprite couldn't access, but this increases the chance of flicker and and a little more CPU resource).

 That's really limiting and pretty amazing as to what some of the artists did on the Genesis. Games designed around the genesis hardware did a better job of hiding it and the blurry video help smooth pixels/colors. If the Genesis video was sharp than games wouldn't have used dither as much as they started to do in the mid-to-later generation. Funny that the PCE's mid res (352) doesn't blur like the Genesis 40 cell mode(320) even though it's a slightly higher res - dithering it more noticeable on it than the genesis.

 The PCE has 32 palettes each with its own 15 colors. One set of 16 palettes is reserved for the BG and the other set of 16 is reserved for Sprites. It's really nice to develop gfx with. Since it can show so many colors per screen, the size of the palette starts to become its weakness. A 4096 color palette would have better suited the large number palette structure of the PCE. The SNES normal modes (non mode-7) only had 8 palettes for BG and 8 for sprites, each holding 15 colors, but the huge palette 32000 colors is what your seeing on screen. Note: Mode-7 has 1 palette for the BG which is 256 colors; each tile in the BG can access anyone of the 256colors (this absence is one limiting factor on the SegaCD IMO, the other being VRAM bandwidth).


« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 08:42:58 AM by malducci »

spenoza

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2751
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #144 on: September 15, 2007, 10:48:19 AM »
How well did the Turbo deal with memory management compared to the Genesis, you techie types? And how did its memory caches compare.
<a href="http://www.pcedaisakusen.net/2/34/103/show-collection.htm" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">My meager PC Engine Collection so far.</a><br><a href="https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">PC Engine Software Bible</a><br><a href="http://www.racketboy.com/forum/" c

Joe Redifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8178
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #145 on: September 15, 2007, 11:23:11 AM »
Quote





What's interesting about Chaotix is that the 32X is only responsible for the sprites.  The Genesis draws all of the backgrounds 100% with its own colors.

malducci

  • Guest
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #146 on: September 15, 2007, 12:24:03 PM »
How well did the Turbo deal with memory management compared to the Genesis, you techie types? And how did its memory caches compare.

 There wasn't any L1 or L2 cache for those systems. Memory management on the PCE is handle in banks of 8k internally with CPU mapping registers and on the Genesis the memory is layout is linear (no bank mechanism - though they did use an on cart one for the game larger than 32megs). Without extra hardware, the PCE can access 16 megabits with 8 being for the hucard port/rom (they don't go higher because of possible conflicts with the base 64k CD memory being attached), and on the Genesis the CPU can address 32megabits of rom space. The 68000 has less access overhead, is less complicated, and just easy to use because of the linear layout, but the downside is storing bytes as words to avoid resource penalty causing some arrays to bloat. The PCE bank system is more complex, accessing "far" data/code means a slight overhead and slight code increase, and overall not as nice as a linear layout. Also arrays with odd byte size segments are not a problem and doesn't require bloating the array segment size since the PCE is byte alignment, though accessing word or double word data is not as smooth and adds more code than the 68000.
 
 If you're wondering about the Arcade card, it's port based access with 4 individual ports that can overlap. There's no overhead of a bank system when accessing the data directly making access to large arrays pretty convenient, but the access is sequential (with different size incrementers). And there are 4 8k banks that correspond to each AC port so you can transfer memory directly from the AC to VRAM via DMA, or have the CD read functions load directly to AC mem for convenience. It also have a 32bit signed rotated register for fast address calcution or for your own use.


 Btw - your current x86 programs pad arrays and data structures to 32bit segments to gain speed as well but it's not as important since memory is huge in comparison these days.

ccovell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2245
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #147 on: September 15, 2007, 01:58:35 PM »
...the parallax is there in the 2nd level and where ever the arcade had it. with that said,  it's not that the PCE/TG16 couldn't handle that parallax, since of course we all know the machine can be forced to do it. 


Not to defend lazy programmers or anything, but the types of parallax in stage 2 and 5 of R-Type are different, and the type of parallax on stage 5 has been pointed out again and again to be a simple hsync scroll, without some people here "getting it" that it's not the same as true parallax.  It'd be tough to "force" the PCE to do true parallax with two different layers of graphics such as the ones on stage 2, but I guess the easiest way to do it would be VRAM animation, which (since the blue BG seems to tile at 32 or 64 pixels) would eat up a lot of VRAM.  Or just ROM, if the programmers were good enough to manage VRAM animation from ROM (rather than a VRAM-to-VRAM copy.)

there are exceptions to this rule though. the Amiga. it didn't have any hardware scrolling background layers, yet in games like Shadow of the Beast and Lionheart programmers achived many (more than 3-4) layers.


ref:
http://hol.abime.net/1891/screenshot
http://hol.abime.net/894/screenshot

The Amiga (ECS chipset) can indeed have two completely independent background layers.  The games Menace and Agony (and I'm sure countless others) use it to create the appearance of several backgrounds, layered on top of each other.  I just looked again at the screenshots of Shadow of the Beast, and that's the mode that I believe the game is running in most of the time.  Probably Lionheart too.

The main limitation to the dual-BG mode of the Amiga is that each background can have only 3 bitplanes (8 colours per BG), while the regular single BG mode of the Amiga can have 6 bitplanes (32 colours +halfbrite if needed).

Black Tiger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11242
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #148 on: September 15, 2007, 03:13:37 PM »
An example I gave early on was Super Darius.

It scrolls the top and bottom of the bg and uses sprites to overlap inbetween and it works perfectly. This type of effect would recreate R-Type's stage 2 parallax no problem.

I think that it shows that pretty much any kind of horizontal scrolling dual layered bg can be done well on PC Engine.

The second stage in that Darius video is the best example. I left the third stage in just for fun, even though it doesn't have any overlapping. I would've added a some more, but the game mysteriously crashed at the end of that third stage(first time its happened to me in over 15 years :P).



What's interesting about Chaotix is that the 32X is only responsible for the sprites.  The Genesis draws all of the backgrounds 100% with its own colors.


All the more impressive and just goes to show how nice Genesis colors can be used in original games. 8)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 03:15:08 PM by Black Tiger »
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/forum

Active and drama free PC Engine forum

Keranu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9054
Re: Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate
« Reply #149 on: September 15, 2007, 03:56:33 PM »
Quote





What's interesting about Chaotix is that the 32X is only responsible for the sprites.  The Genesis draws all of the backgrounds 100% with its own colors.

Impressive! That's really interesting that the Genesis does the backgrounds, is there a reason for that?

Quote from: Black_Tiger
An example I gave early on was Super Darius.

It scrolls the top and bottom of the bg and uses sprites to overlap inbetween and it works perfectly. This type of effect would recreate R-Type's stage 2 parallax no problem.

I think that it shows that pretty much any kind of horizontal scrolling dual layered bg can be done well on PC Engine.

The second stage in that Darius video is the best example. I left the third stage in just for fun, even though it doesn't have any overlapping. I would've added a some more, but the game mysteriously crashed at the end of that third stage(first time its happened to me in over 15 years ).

Very nice!
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).