Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate

[Keranu]

The 32X does one background in Kolibri, usually the one closest to your face (re: on top).  How did you "remove" the sprites from the Knuckles' Chaotix pic?  Just blanking them out with black?  Don't forget to remove the sparklies, rings and the score as well.  It is possible that they supplemented the BG with sprites.

I removed Knuckles, the sparkles, the rings, the score, and some other creature that was on the screen by blanking them out. I'll have to check out the ROM some time.

Great links, awack! You can really see the rainbows in the Shinobi comparison.

[Black Tiger]

Since the video was transmitted via RGB from the Genesis, composite video with a 32X playing a regular Genesis game looks much better than composite video from the Genesis itself.  No more vertical rainbow stripes.  Less fuzziness.  Much better.  In short, just having a 32X attached and hooked up properly fixes all of the Genesis' composite video shortcomings.

Does the 32X really make a difference with any Genesis, or just the original model?

[Turbo D]

How the heck do I use a 32x to make my genesis games look better, I thought that only 32x games fit in its socket 

[Joe Redifer]

The 32X has it's own NTSC video encoder.  It works with any Genesis... except the Genesis 3 or the Nomad.  I don't recall if the Genesis 2 has the vertical bars in composite or not.  If you have a Genesis modded for s-video, you will not be able to use the s-video with the 32X since the RGB video from the Genesis is sent to the 32X before it is output.  You would see the Genesis-only video through the s-video.

Here are some pics I took with a digital camera due to the aforementioned saturation issue.  All connections are composite:


Pretty big difference if you ask me.

And some other stuff just for fun:



Kolibri with and without the 32X video applied.  Just run the composite cable straight from the Genesis to see this instead of from the 32X.


Knuckles' Chaotix, same thing.


Space Harrier.

How the heck do I use a 32x to make my genesis games look better, I thought that only 32x games fit in its socket 

Genesis games fit in the 32X slot.  That would suck to have to remove the thing.

[Tatsujin]

haha..the last space harrier comparison rules. only the background in the horizont came from the MD

so the 32X has its own s-video output? which also normal MD games can be played and displayed on the screen via the 32X? great news

[Keranu]

Awesome screens, Joe! That's really awesome just by switching the cable around you can just the Genesis graphics! It's really amazing how Kolibri turned out with just the Genesis graphics.

[Black Tiger]

haha..the last space harrier comparison rules. only the background in the horizont came from the MD

so the 32X has its own s-video output? which also normal MD games can be played and displayed on the screen via the 32X? great news

No, the 32X has the same output connection as the Genesis II. The only way you can get anything better than composite out of it is to either use an XMD-2 or line RGB out and convert it to S-Video or Component.

[handygrafx]

ah ha!  I too think that's an awesome comparison, Joe.   

It's cool to see what the Megadrive/Genesis does as far as graphics in each of those 32X games.  it does more in Kolibri than I expected.

I did the same thing with AfterBurner Complete.  The Genesis (IIRC) did the score, and the horizon bar indicator and maybe the rest of the stats while 32x did everything related to the graphics.

[handygrafx]

as for NEC's involvement with the Dreamcast -- it's not what some of you might think.  they didn't really design any of the hardware.  they didn't design the graphics chip.  Videologic designed the PowerVR2DC graphics in Dreamcast, NEC only manufactured it.    NEC also manufactured (but did not designed) the  ArtX-designed Flipper GPU in Gamecube.   

IIRC NEC also manufactures the ATI-designed Hollywood GPU in Wii.


NEC had/has less ties to the Dreamcast and Gamecube (and Wii) than the did with the
PC-Engine ~ TurboGrafx-16 ~ CD-ROM, SuperGrafx, Duo (etc) and FX systems, which they were directly involved with those systems success (or lack of it)... NEC was probably more involved with the design of the hardware (even though Hudson did most of the work) on their systems.   with Sega and Nintendo systems, NEC was just the company that fabbed the graphics and embedded memory chips.

[handygrafx]

Now here's a fun poll:

What do you think would've benefitted more? The Turbo Grafx 16 having an extra background layer or the Genesis having palette capabilities as the TG16  ? We sorta already have a TG16 with an extra background layer thanks to the Super Grafx, but I'd like to hear comments regarding this .

ohhh I like this one. I'd have to think about it more.....    my first reaction would be to say Genesis with TG16's palette capabilities (including on-screen colors at once)...

[malducci]

as for NEC's involvement with the Dreamcast -- it's not what some of you might think.  they didn't really design any of the hardware.  they didn't design the graphics chip.  Videologic designed the PowerVR2DC graphics in Dreamcast, NEC only manufactured it.    NEC also manufactured (but did not designed) the  ArtX-designed Flipper GPU in Gamecube.   

IIRC NEC also manufactures the ATI-designed Hollywood GPU in Wii.


NEC had/has less ties to the Dreamcast and Gamecube (and Wii) than the did with the
PC-Engine ~ TurboGrafx-16 ~ CD-ROM, SuperGrafx, Duo (etc) and FX systems, which they were directly involved with those systems success (or lack of it)... NEC was probably more involved with the design of the hardware (even though Hudson did most of the work) on their systems.   with Sega and Nintendo systems, NEC was just the company that fabbed the graphics and embedded memory chips.

 NEC did the CD hardware for the base unit, the main system arch is Hudsons design (all hudson designed and fab'd chips). From what I've read, Hudson licensed the design/system arch to NEC.

[CosMind]

Now here's a fun poll:

What do you think would've benefitted more? The Turbo Grafx 16 having an extra background layer or the Genesis having palette capabilities as the TG16  ? We sorta already have a TG16 with an extra background layer thanks to the Super Grafx, but I'd like to hear comments regarding this .

i'd have to toss my hat into the "genesis with tg16 palette" ring.
i'm a sucker for rich color work, so any palette enhancement option is always going to get my vote

[handygrafx]

as for NEC's involvement with the Dreamcast -- it's not what some of you might think.  they didn't really design any of the hardware.  they didn't design the graphics chip.  Videologic designed the PowerVR2DC graphics in Dreamcast, NEC only manufactured it.    NEC also manufactured (but did not designed) the  ArtX-designed Flipper GPU in Gamecube.   

IIRC NEC also manufactures the ATI-designed Hollywood GPU in Wii.


NEC had/has less ties to the Dreamcast and Gamecube (and Wii) than the did with the
PC-Engine ~ TurboGrafx-16 ~ CD-ROM, SuperGrafx, Duo (etc) and FX systems, which they were directly involved with those systems success (or lack of it)... NEC was probably more involved with the design of the hardware (even though Hudson did most of the work) on their systems.   with Sega and Nintendo systems, NEC was just the company that fabbed the graphics and embedded memory chips.

 NEC did the CD hardware for the base unit, the main system arch is Hudsons design (all hudson designed and fab'd chips). From what I've read, Hudson licensed the design/system arch to NEC.

that sounds right.

[Tatsujin]

haha..the last space harrier comparison rules. only the background in the horizont came from the MD

so the 32X has its own s-video output? which also normal MD games can be played and displayed on the screen via the 32X? great news

No, the 32X has the same output connection as the Genesis II. The only way you can get anything better than composite out of it is to either use an XMD-2 or line RGB out and convert it to S-Video or Component.

thanks, now i got the post from red above. a shame, i was already hoping for a very cheap way, how to put my MD on the the TV set via S-Video

[Necromancer]

Can you name a single game on the Genesis that could not be done on the Engine?

I can!

Try this:

Or this:

And even this:

I don't remember anything too spectacular in Earthworm Jim 2, so I think the PC Engine could pull it off (it's been about 84 years since I played it and I don't see anything amazing on the youtube vids).  I'll give you Sonic, and I don't know if a good port of Gynoug could be done and I don't care.  That background looks like shit, though maybe it looks better on a real system. 

I didn't mean to imply that the PCE can do everything that the Genesis can, though my post certainly sounded like I did.  If I were capable of forming consistently coherent posts, I would have asserted that most Genny games could be done on the PCE with only minor variation and visa versa, most PCE games could be competently done on the Genesis.  The two systems are pretty close graphics wise (in my opinion, of course), so I have a problem with O.T.B.'s blanket statement that the Turbo's graphics are 'not up to snuff'.  It's just as fanboyish as saying that the Genesis graphics suck when compared to the Engine just because the PCE can produce more colors.  Sure, it'd be nice if the Engine had a second background layer, but quite a few games have nice parallax despite this limitation.

Now here's a fun poll:

What do you think would've benefitted more? The Turbo Grafx 16 having an extra background layer or the Genesis having palette capabilities as the TG16  ? We sorta already have a TG16 with an extra background layer thanks to the Super Grafx, but I'd like to hear comments regarding this .

Interesting question, Keranu.  Original Genesis games are often nicely colored, since the developers didn't have to try and match colors to something else.  A better palette wouldn't really matter in some of my favorite Genny games, but would certainly help out some dully colored ports.  On the other hand, the Turbo getting the extra background layer would be great (hardware scaling and rotation would be even better).  Some games did a good job of faking the backgrounds, so not much would be gained in some cases.  I don't know which would really make a bigger impact, so I'll flip a coin.  It came up heads, so I'm voting for the Turbo gaining a second background plane.