The XO - OLPC

[rag-time4]

I bet a large amount of parents take the childs laptop and sell/trade it for food,clothes, etc.
It's a great idea, but if there is no follow up to ensure that the laptop will be used properly, it's kind of pointless.

In a speech at MIT, the founder of the laptop program discussed security issues. It's mentioned on the wiki article.

here is the video

here's the wiki (see the theft and resale under the criticism section) The grey market is brought up about 24 minutes into the video.

[Turbo D]

All of my views are based on logic. Isn't it only logical what I've said? Seriously, is it not more logical to give a country electricity before a laptop?

I don't think your views are entirely logical.

You seem like you aren't taking into account the fact that the laptop program was started by an educator (teacher) who values education.

The laptop program is focused primarily on improving education in poor countries and communities.

Turbo, you're certainly right that there are many many things that can be done in these countries and communities beyond intoducing computer technology in the realm of education, but personally I don't have the skills nor the knowledge necessary to start such a program on my own, and you haven't presented any alternative programs in any of your comments...

You've consistently criticized the laptop program without providing a concrete alternative for us to look at and possibly invest in! Therefore, I see what you are doing as choosing to do nothing at all instead of participating in the laptop program.

However, I personally am in college with the goal of becoming a teacher myself, so I place a lot of value on education. I probably wouldn't be as interested in larger-scale infrastructure programs as I am about a program that places emphasis on education. Nonetheless, if you know of a program better than the one laptop per child program, let us know about it!

The thing that excites me the most about this particular laptop is the mesh networking. While Necromancer correctly pointed out that this doesn't imply a connection to the world wide web, it may help improve communication between some of the poorer, more isolated communities...

I think increased communication can lead to an increase in the exchange of ideas which may lead to an increase in knowledge and make more likely the prospects for the kinds of social change that we agree are necessary.

What is not logical about what I have said? If the "educator" that started this program cares so much about these children getting an education, then why is he so pissed off that Intel is offering laptops to these countries. Shouldn't he be glad that these countries are getting and education through laptops regardless of who makes them? Well he isn't glad, in fact he is extremely pissed. Intel is taking away from the profits of his business. Is not this proof enough of this being a scam? To me it seems fishy. To top it off, he does not even plan to educate the children of their teachers on how to use them. He says that they can "teach themselves." Where is the logic in that?

This thread is about our views on the laptop scam, NOT me providing an alternative. I did not expect people to come to me and ask me to tell them which charity to invest in, haha. You are not my children; take care of yourselves. It makes me sad to think that a future teacher can not even do his own research. I wonder if you will pass college. Maybe you can use your little green laptop to get information from the internet to cheat on your tests  .

[rag-time4]

What is not logical about what I have said? If the "educator" that started this program cares so much about these children getting an education, then why is he so pissed off that Intel is offering laptops to these countries. Shouldn't he be glad that these countries are getting and education through laptops regardless of who makes them? Well he isn't glad, in fact he is extremely pissed. Intel is taking away from the profits of his business. Is not this proof enough of this being a scam? To me it seems fishy.

Intel is a for-profit corporation, while OLPC (one laptop per child) is a non-profit. These two types of organizations have different legal responsibilites. The board of directors of a for-profit corporation is legally responsible for increasing the profit margin for shareholders.

From the wiki on "non-profit organization": Most experts consider the legal and ethical restrictions on the distribution of profits to owners or shareholders as what fundamentally distinguishes NPOs from commercial enterprises.

If intel were to dominate the market share for providing these laptops, I feel that the children's benefit would be decreased, and the benefits to the corporation would be increased. While certainly not fool proof, a non-profit organization offers at least the hope that lowering of costs will benifit the children in the form of increased quality or lower price, while a for-profit organization would be legally responsible to increase the profits of the shareholders.

This thread is about our views on the laptop scam, NOT me providing an alternative. I did not expect people to come to me and ask me to tell them which charity to invest in, haha. You are not my children; take care of yourselves. It makes me sad to think that a future teacher can not even do his own research. I wonder if you will pass college. Maybe you can use your little green laptop to get information from the internet to cheat on your tests  .

So when someone asks you for help, the best thing to do is crap on them and tell them to take care of themself?

For YOU, this thread is about criticizing the laptop program, which is negative. Though you may have the best interest of the world community at heart, you are manifesting your concern for the community in a purely negative fashion, in my opinion.

You aren't offering anything positive -- in other words, something that actually exists. You are only trying to criticize something that someone else is doing -- or trying to do.

And I'm not just asking you to tell me what to invest in, but at least offer some real choices that are superior to the laptop program.

To top it off, he does not even plan to educate the children of their teachers on how to use them. He says that they can "teach themselves." Where is the logic in that

The logic in this is that Negroponte believes in an exploratory educational model. In the video, he goes into it a bit during the question and answer session when someone asks him about it.

He points out that as infants and toddlers, children learn a great deal on their own, by exploration and experimentation, but at the age of 6, children must shift and instead begin to learn by being taught and submitting to teachers rather then exploring on their own.

As a bit of a digression perhaps, think about U.S. history for a moment, back when black slaves and descendants of slaves first got their hands on European brass horns... Even though many said that the blacks were too stupid to read written music, they were able to produce their own forms of music (like rag-time and jazz) and often conscously chose to ignore learning to read written music...

I say that to say: the laptop program isn't about teaching people to use laptops the way the western world uses laptops.... it's about providing laptops as a tool to improve communication and education.

And thank you for your classy encouragement of my education  Obviously, I have found out who NOT to ask for help should I ever run into trouble. After all, if I do run into any trouble it's my own fault and nobody else is morally responsible to offer any assistance, even when I ask for it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010:25-37

[Kitsunexus]

Actually, both of you are wrong. This thread is about us voting if we want a shitty laptop or not.

I want a shitty laptop (for Impulse Tracker), but not THIS shitty laptop.


Also, with as much R&D money put into this thing, wouldn't it have been better just to adapt the OLPC OS to exisiting computers?

A lot of them have Wi-Fi. True, they're not as durable. They cannot generate their own power.

But it's a hell of a lot smarter than wasting so much money on something that most likely will NOT change the world.

[rag-time4]

Also, with as much R&D money put into this thing, wouldn't it have been better just to adapt the OLPC OS to exisiting computers?

Kitsune, what do you mean by adapting the OLPC OS to existing computers? From what I'm reading, the OLPC OS is open-source Linux. Isn't Linux fairly widespread?

[Kitsunexus]

Also, with as much R&D money put into this thing, wouldn't it have been better just to adapt the OLPC OS to exisiting computers?

Kitsune, what do you mean by adapting the OLPC OS to existing computers? From what I'm reading, the OLPC OS is open-source Linux. Isn't Linux fairly widespread?

Not as much as it should be for a project like OLPC.

[rag-time4]

Not as much as it should be for a project like OLPC.

Is there an open-source version of windows or of the Apple OS?

I found this on the wiki: Steve Jobs had offered Mac OS X free of charge for use in the laptop, but according to Seymour Papert, a professor emeritus at MIT who is one of the initiative's founders, the designers want an operating system that can be tinkered with: “We declined because it’s not open source.”[40] Therefore Linux was chosen.

[Kitsunexus]

I didn't know little 3rd world kids were such Linux hacker gurus... 

[Necromancer]

Jeez, guys!  Try to keep it civil, please.

And for those that say "traditional" means of education are just as valid...have you had to buy college textbooks lately? The shit costs *way* more than a $200 computer.

That's a half baked argument, as the lion's share of a book's cost is for the content and not for the paper.  I've downloaded digital versions of a few manuals and reference books and haven't saved much, if anything.  Of course, there's a better chance of a publisher donating a .pdf than of them also eating the cost of printing the books.

As for the whole profit vs. nonprofit argument: thank the gods that Quanta (which is the largest laptop manufacturer in the world and has built laptops for Apple, HP, Dell, IBM, and just about anyone else that you can think of), AMD, and all the other hardware suppliers are all nonprofit organizations.  Oh wait, they're not, so I guess that this OLPC program is legally obligated to maximize profits too. 

However, I personally am in college with the goal of becoming a teacher myself, so I place a lot of value on education. I probably wouldn't be as interested in larger-scale infrastructure programs as I am about a program that places emphasis on education. Nonetheless, if you know of a program better than the one laptop per child program, let us know about it!

Room to Read

They've criticized the $100 laptop program as being too expensive.  They say that a $2000 library serving 400 people ($5 a head) or a $10,000 school serving 400 people ($25 each) is far more cost effective.  I definitely prefer their traditional approach to education over the OLPC program.

I found this on the wiki: Steve Jobs had offered Mac OS X free of charge for use in the laptop, but according to Seymour Papert, a professor emeritus at MIT who is one of the initiative's founders, the designers want an operating system that can be tinkered with: “We declined because it’s not open source.”[40] Therefore Linux was chosen.

This makes me lose all respect that I had for this project - what little I had, anyway.  It makes no sense to turn down a top notch, reliable, and efficient OS because it's not open source.  I can't think of any good reasons that they would want to screw with the OS, except for hardware support, which Jobs would surely support.

I still think that this program is dumb, simply because the only reason that anyone in the US would want one of these things is to show how great and caring they are.  I'd much rather donate the $400, let them give away both laptops, and buy myself a used Pentium III laptop for less than $100 that will run rings around this look-at-me-machine.

[Kitsunexus]

And Necromancer wins the thread. Good show, sir! 

[Necromancer]

f*ck you!  Wait.... does that qualify as civil? 

[Kitsunexus]

f*ck you!  Wait.... does that qualify as civil? 

I was being serious....for once....

[rag-time4]

As for the whole profit vs. nonprofit argument: thank the gods that Quanta (which is the largest laptop manufacturer in the world and has built laptops for Apple, HP, Dell, IBM, and just about anyone else that you can think of), AMD, and all the other hardware suppliers are all nonprofit organizations.  Oh wait, they're not, so I guess that this OLPC program is legally obligated to maximize profits too. 

In this case, Quanta, AMD, and the rest are providing "corporate sponsorship", but are not in control of the project itself. If the relationship between the OLPC program and the hardware suppliers is reason for you to lack faith in the program, I really can't blame you. From this article, though, it seems like most of the corporations involved have simply donated money to the program: http://tech.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1212148.php/Taiwans_Quanta_to_make_100-US-dollar_laptops_for_poor_kids (second to last paragraph)

"OLPC is funded by a number of sponsors, including AMD, Brightstar Corp, eBay, Google, Marvell, News Corp, SES Global, Nortel Networks and Red Hat. Each company has donated 2 million US dollars.

Quanta is taking part in the project as a joint designer and sole manufacturer of the laptops."

However, I personally am in college with the goal of becoming a teacher myself, so I place a lot of value on education. I probably wouldn't be as interested in larger-scale infrastructure programs as I am about a program that places emphasis on education. Nonetheless, if you know of a program better than the one laptop per child program, let us know about it!

Room to Read

They've criticized the $100 laptop program as being too expensive.  They say that a $2000 library serving 400 people ($5 a head) or a $10,000 school serving 400 people ($25 each) is far more cost effective.  I definitely prefer their traditional approach to education over the OLPC program.

The MP3 of the conversation with the head of Room to Read can be found here for anyone interested.

The idea of building schools and libraries is certainly more traditional. The laptop program, at least to me, is a new idea that hasn't really been tested yet. How well it will work out when tested on a large scale has yet to be seen.

What's really grabbed me about the laptop program are the communications potential of widespread mesh networked laptops and the idea of children in poor commnities having access to modern tools and technology.

Necromancer, in the above conversation that I linked to (that you quoted from about the roomtoread founder's comments on the laptop program), there were some very interesting comments made by the one panel speaker who isn't white -- to the effect that rich countries need to respect the dignity of the poor... and respect the wants and needs of various communities. While some communities may respond to having schools and libraries built, in other cases poor communities may have schools built but kids not attending... and the hi-tech promise of the laptop program might both more appealing and more effective.

Since the laptop program currently is basing its business model on selling computers to governments rather than private citizens, governments will have to make decisions on balancing how much money to put toward building schools and libraries or into the laptop program.

I think it's a great choice for governments to have.

I found this on the wiki: Steve Jobs had offered Mac OS X free of charge for use in the laptop, but according to Seymour Papert, a professor emeritus at MIT who is one of the initiative's founders, the designers want an operating system that can be tinkered with: “We declined because it’s not open source.”[40] Therefore Linux was chosen.

This makes me lose all respect that I had for this project - what little I had, anyway.  It makes no sense to turn down a top notch, reliable, and efficient OS because it's not open source.  I can't think of any good reasons that they would want to screw with the OS, except for hardware support, which Jobs would surely support.

I still think that this program is dumb, simply because the only reason that anyone in the US would want one of these things is to show how great and caring they are.  I'd much rather donate the $400, let them give away both laptops, and buy myself a used Pentium III laptop for less than $100 that will run rings around this look-at-me-machine.

I believe part of the reasion that the laptop program wants the OS to be open-source is to allow the children the opportunity to tinker with the OS and explore it.

I don't know if you've looked at it this way or not, but the idea of opening up open-source-linux development to the poor may result in an explosion of development for linux as a platform... which is underutilized in the richer parts of the world since we're all relatively comfortable with the Windows and Mac OS systems that we are more or less forced to accept.

Why would Steve Jobs refuse to produce an open-source Macintosh OS for the laptop project?

I appreciate your comment about the XO laptop being a "look at me" machine. I really understand what you're saying, and if I get one, I don't want it to be because I want it to be a "look at me" machine. If I get one, I want it to be because I've been thinking of buying a cheap laptop for some time, and this one may be a good one to get because of the buy one get one program. I like the durability aspect of it as well  :-" A big part of the reason I've never bought one before is that I don't really trust myself with one. I also liked the multi-language keyboard designs that I saw. I've never looked into getting a laptop with more than one alphabet on the keyboard, but the XO's Arabic/English keyboard is very interesting to me since I would like to learn Arabic.

I didn't know little 3rd world kids were such Linux hacker gurus... 

That's because they haven't had large-scale access to Linux computers.

Personally, I've always had access to DOS or Windows machines so I've never fooled around with either Macintosh OS or Linux, even though my Microsoft machines have not always been stable... (usually when my computers have started crashing or not working I've been able to just buy a new one)

[Turbo D]

What is not logical about what I have said? If the "educator" that started this program cares so much about these children getting an education, then why is he so pissed off that Intel is offering laptops to these countries. Shouldn't he be glad that these countries are getting and education through laptops regardless of who makes them? Well he isn't glad, in fact he is extremely pissed. Intel is taking away from the profits of his business. Is not this proof enough of this being a scam? To me it seems fishy.

Intel is a for-profit corporation, while OLPC (one laptop per child) is a non-profit. These two types of organizations have different legal responsibilites. The board of directors of a for-profit corporation is legally responsible for increasing the profit margin for shareholders.

From the wiki on "non-profit organization": Most experts consider the legal and ethical restrictions on the distribution of profits to owners or shareholders as what fundamentally distinguishes NPOs from commercial enterprises.

If intel were to dominate the market share for providing these laptops, I feel that the children's benefit would be decreased, and the benefits to the corporation would be increased. While certainly not fool proof, a non-profit organization offers at least the hope that lowering of costs will benifit the children in the form of increased quality or lower price, while a for-profit organization would be legally responsible to increase the profits of the shareholders.

I don't see how the children's benefit would be decreased by having an Intel laptop. Intel is providing them with a laptop that is a little better for a little more. Either way someone is paying for the laptop, whether it be people like you or the governments of these poor countries. I do see the point you are making about the profit/ nonprofit deal. But I don't think that shareholders of intel are going to dance around because of some cheapo laptops being sold. These laptops are made of parts that have been sitting around for years. Intel makes its money on the technology of today. When you compare the processors they sell to these laptops, you can see that its not going to affect Intels market share, lol. I bet you think that children will benefit less by having an intel based laptop when they need that high framerate in counterstrike that they can achieve with the amd 

This thread is about our views on the laptop scam, NOT me providing an alternative. I did not expect people to come to me and ask me to tell them which charity to invest in, haha. You are not my children; take care of yourselves. It makes me sad to think that a future teacher can not even do his own research. I wonder if you will pass college. Maybe you can use your little green laptop to get information from the internet to cheat on your tests  .

So when someone asks you for help, the best thing to do is crap on them and tell them to take care of themself?

For YOU, this thread is about criticizing the laptop program, which is negative. Though you may have the best interest of the world community at heart, you are manifesting your concern for the community in a purely negative fashion, in my opinion.

You aren't offering anything positive -- in other words, something that actually exists. You are only trying to criticize something that someone else is doing -- or trying to do.

And I'm not just asking you to tell me what to invest in, but at least offer some real choices that are superior to the laptop program.

You're going to need to learn how to help yourself eventually ragtime, especially since someday YOU will be educating our children. Until you figure out how, I'll be glad to crap on you 

To top it off, he does not even plan to educate the children of their teachers on how to use them. He says that they can "teach themselves." Where is the logic in that

The logic in this is that Negroponte believes in an exploratory educational model. In the video, he goes into it a bit during the question and answer session when someone asks him about it.

He points out that as infants and toddlers, children learn a great deal on their own, by exploration and experimentation, but at the age of 6, children must shift and instead begin to learn by being taught and submitting to teachers rather then exploring on their own.

As a bit of a digression perhaps, think about U.S. history for a moment, back when black slaves and descendants of slaves first got their hands on European brass horns... Even though many said that the blacks were too stupid to read written music, they were able to produce their own forms of music (like rag-time and jazz) and often conscously chose to ignore learning to read written music...

I say that to say: the laptop program isn't about teaching people to use laptops the way the western world uses laptops.... it's about providing laptops as a tool to improve communication and education.

And thank you for your classy encouragement of my education  Obviously, I have found out who NOT to ask for help should I ever run into trouble. After all, if I do run into any trouble it's my own fault and nobody else is morally responsible to offer any assistance, even when I ask for it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010:25-37

I'm glad that you now view me as Jesus for my great wisdom 

[SignOfZeta]

They probably turned down OSX because its a f*cking horrible choice for this project overall. It is a total HOG when it comes to storage, memory, and CPU, and therefore requires shitloads more power than absolutely necessary for the task at hand. I mean, I just bought a Mac in 2005 and its pretty obvious that by 2009, if not sooner, I'm going to need another one because its already being obsolesced by Apple. Programs like Aperture, and the new iMovie refuse to install because I don't meet the system requirements, and I'm pretty sure that whenever 10.6 comes out it won't run on PPC Macs. All of this shit is totally unacceptable for the scope of the project.

Its kind of amazing how narrow people's field of vision is when it comes to computers. The later Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books, multi-million sellers, were written on a Mac with an 8mhz 16-bit CPU. Don't you remember those days? Modern day American computers are just like modern day American cars, houses, phones, etc. Massive massive waste. If you've got the money, then I guess that's (debatably) OK, but these people don't have cable connections to download 200MB OS fixes. There won't be an IT crew. There won't be any money to buy more computers in 3 years just because Jobs or Gates decided to sabotage them.

I seriously suggest that you look at the way space probes and satellites are designed. You won't find any MS, or Apple OS in there, they last for 30 years, and run on half a watt a day. This is an extreme example, but closer to what OLPC needs.

Also, a few points. I harp on OSX up above, but its still my favorite choice, for my needs. Vista is even worse, much worse, so don't think I'm singling Apple out. Also, OSX isn't open, but it kind of is. OSX basically just a skin and a few programs on top of Darwin UNIX, which Apple released for free. They could have used that for the OLPC project, but as stated before they need fit and trim, not huge and fat. Think Karen Carpenter versus Nell Carter...topless. That's the comparison we're talking about here.